45 replies to this topic

[Capn Jack]

[...] Don't just jump in and try and be a hero cause thats a good way to get hurt or drown.

Reason I say this is that there was a incident(It probably wont make the news either) not to long ago where a person was wanting to be a hero who wasnt PSD trained decided they where going to help and drowned causing a much bigger issue with more victims.

I will apologise to all before I continue with this post, for I tried very hard not to respond to this for over 12 hours.

Sincerely with all due respect, this is an egregiously arrogant commentary, for several significant reasons. To presume that "not PSD trained" Joe Schmoe acted out of a desire to "be a hero" entirely discounts the human instinct to act in emergencies rather than spectate. However unskilled he may have been, belittling that individual's effort by chalking up his drowning death to ego -- thereby "causing a much bigger issue" for the first responders -- comes across rather poorly. Unskilled and minimally trained average people, from divers to Cub Scouts, regularly save lives when impelled to act. Lastly, occasionally even highly qualified rescue personnel have run afoul of unforeseen variables and paid with their lives. Do their quals make their deaths more worthy, or honorable?

Victoria - while I respect your point in general, I have to add that I've known Dan for several years now, and have had boat time/dive time with him. I think I'd describe his viewpoint here - and in almost everything he discusses - blunt, pragmatic and speaking from the lessons he's learned in his many responder courses and in his many hours now of being on the job as a first responder.

His choice of words may be the issues. One thing we do preach incessantly in Rescue classes is "don't become the second victim" and going back to the Water Safety mantra "Reach, Throw, Row, Go" as a simple remnider of the preferred sequence of ways to help people in the water. So I think if you substitute for hero the phrase well-meaning, over-confident but tragically untrained first shmuck on the scene then you have what Dan meant to say.

I'd also add that there is some literature that suggests we not only have a self-survival instinct, but we also have a species survival instinct, which compels ordinary people to attempt extraordinary things. Like Dan, I'd urge everyone to know their abilities, experience, training and limits, think about how they could help most effectively and as I said before - NOT become one more victim in need of rescue.

[secretsea18]

Robyn

I havent been able to get the videos to load to view them. if thats the case on the ferries that they got there that quick they deserve the recognition for acting as fast as i they did.

Dan,

When I click on the links they work. I must admit that I am impatient and so moved the "progress" bar over to the right a little bit, and then pressed ">" for play again. Try it again.... or as it is on YouTube, you might do a search for the USCG video of the landing...

Robin

[peterbj7]

I have to add my 2 cents worth in defence of Scubatooth. I did PSD training several years ago, and at my dive center we ran PSD courses for Belizean police & coastguard staff. I'm no expert and don't work in the field as he does, but I saw enough to give me pause for thought.

In training you learn about several attempted rescues (and even recoveries with no live person to save) that started well but failed disastrously due to inadequate training of staff and available equipment. Without regurgitating these, it was very clear that in all but the simplest of cases if you jump in with just recreational dive training (even up to Course Director level) you are in general a severe danger to yourself and to others, and are unlikely to complete your mission. One key aspect is that people don't realise how their air consumption sky-rockets when you are working hard or are highly stressed. Too many people have died needlessly and pointlessly for this not to be taken very seriously.

I think PSD training is something that should become routine for aspiring tech divers. So many people have come to me and said they wanted to become a divemaster, but when I asked "why?" didn't have a coherent reason. Just because it's the "next step" is NOT an adequate reason. I've generally told these people to go and do an intro-tech course instead (which I also teach, but that's irrelevant as I usually recommend people to do it near their homes), but on reflection a PSD course should be well up there as well. It's a long course - we took 5 days solid to train people to certification level - but it could be fitted into a medium length holiday.

The British equivalent to the US Public Safety Diver training is the programs designed by the HSE (Health and Safety Executive, a government agency with much bigger sharper teeth than the US's OSHA) and those take two months full-time. It's illegal to work in any way other than recreational dive training without that qualification, for the same good reasons that Scubatooth and I have mentioned. This sort of diving is VERY DANGEROUS.

Edited by peterbj7, 19 January 2009 - 12:03 PM.

[Victoria]

I have not, in any way taken issue with the value, indeed, necessity for proper rescue training. Nor do I have anything other than respect for Tooth's education, skills and chosen profession.

What I objected to is the overbearing implication that, should I find myself in proximity to an individual's immediate need of life preserving assistance, I should "remember myself and my limitations" and just wait for the cavalry to arrive!

What I objected to is the rather clear insinuation that it would be far better for all concerned if the average Joe NOT make any effort to render aid, for fear that any sincere effort to help will be viewed as "wanting to be a hero", a self-aggrandizing, self-centered act?!

Indeed, I applaud and highly respect ALL individuals who selflessly train and educate themselves for the purpose of going into harm's way for the sake of strangers, regardless of whether they be law enforcement, paramedical, firefighters, or SFOD-Delta! But kindly don't insult well-intended efforts by lesser-qualified individuals by denigrating their intent.

Finally, 'Tooth, I took issue with your post not because of personality or insult, but because all divers who take this sport seriously are expected by other divers at least to know how to 1.) rescue themselves if at all possible, and 2.) provide redundancy for their partner in an emergency. That's why we have secondary regs, carry knives to free ourselves from entrapment, practice OOA emergency ascents and buddy breathing, often carry Spare Air cannisters, and more often than not know at least the fundamentals of CPR. Yes... assess, think, act! But please don't suggest that otherwise capable non-professionals, should assess, second-guess themselves, then shove hands in pockets and wait for the meat-wagon. Were roles reversed, would you in good conscience be able to NOT try to render assistance because it might be dangerous for you? I can't.

[peterbj7]

I understand where you're coming from, Victoria, but if you saw the statistics you'd understand why a pro like Tooth is warning people off attempting anything beyond a simple rescue in benevolent conditions. Too many would-be rescuers end up victims themselves, doubling the work of whoever ultimately succeeds with the rescue/recovery. We're actually going WAY beyond PADI Rescue Diver training, and really there aren't many similarities. We're talking here about conditions that are seriously life threatening. In Britain, for example, many dog owners who jump into canals in winter to rescue their pets which have fallen/jumped in end up dying, whereas the dog gets out by itself.

[finGrabber]

One of the guys on my very first dive trip was doing PSD in Idaho

his description of a typical PSD dive was "you might as well close your eyes because most of the time you're in silt out conditions. And if you're not, then you close your eyes because you don't want a dead body to appear right in front of your face"

Since that time, I've become a Rescue dive and a DM... the first thing I learned is once you are a EFR, you defer to the person in charge of the site. If they tell you to stay back, then you stay back

but you don't put yourself in jeopardy...2 deaths is twice as bad as 1

being a Rescue diver is one thing...these guys in NYC were doing PSD. Clearly, this was a job best left to the pros

[Scubatooth]

Robyn
I will try that but it seems like the past couple of days the traffic on those sites has been real high causing download issues. I will try it again when I get done working on this project proposal and estimate.

Peter
Very good info, In some respects i wish OSHA would take a couple out of HSE's play book, but then there are some areas of HSE that scare the daylights out of me

Capn Jack
Thanks. yeah the "reach, throw, row, go" is something that is the first thing that was taught to me going back to my initial lifeguard training 10+ years ago, but with the additional part of "Think about it, think about it, Think about it. as a reminder to always reassess the situation to things that may have changed as you dont need to due or react to a situation where you will become a victim as well.

Victoria
I can see your point(s), and no it does not make there effort less honorable. Please understand my training in many arenas and experience paint my opinions as they come from being in the thick of things when its all hitting the fan and outside forces are making things more complicated then they were originally, not that outside looking in. As capt jack said yes Im a strange bird, and in some cases I'm very blunt because at times thats the only way to get the point across to some people, as some dont get it when you try to beat the bush. This bluntness also especially in written text and not in a conversation can come off as arrogant. Last thing i want to see is someone get injured or killed in any case, but in every situation you have to assess and weigh the risks before you react as not doing so could add to the work load of responders that come after them. Your thought process of assess, think, and then react is very sound but isn't the cases in a large number of situations as they haven't thought through the situation, and just reacted. These cases that have been documented in what would be called "Lessons for life" in very similar ways to how its written up in the dive magazines on the analyze of incidents and accidents.

If you can help the situation without adding to the situation go ahead, but keep your safety at the top of the priority list, and not becoming a hero as if your getting involved in a situation for that reason you will hinder more then help. For example in my job yes we are there to save people lives, but without endangering our lives in the process. The priorities from my training to this vary day is my personal safety, my partners safety, our equipment, then the patient. That may sounds callus, backwards, and inappropriate, but that's how things are done and were trained to as there have been many police, fire and ems personnel that have rushed in to a situation without assessing the scene and ended up victims as well. This applies to PSD situations even more because you add many levels of variables including additional gear and environment.

I was real blunt on the detail on the incident because its still under investigation and at that time that was the only details I had at the time, I have more details now, but not all. The "wanna be hero" now that i learned was a diver(certification and number of dives unknown at this point) who had a police and fire scanner who heard the call go out and rushed to the scene blowing right by the dive team setting up and jumped in (no tether, dive buddy, no cutting implements, or propulsion device other then fins(the dive team had a zodiac, plus scooters). In this case it was a swift water rescue that required dive gear. The victims in the water were rescued quickly once all the equipment was set up and launch but then the operation turned into a recovery because of this person who rushed in and drowned.

[Bubble2Bubble]

This thread has taken on a whole new subject..and I understand where Victoria is coming from. Its to bad that Sully was denied his interview today, apparently by the NTSB? I'm sure when he is allowed to talk he will say that ordinary people where doing the extraordinary under the circumstances. I still highly recommend that divers reading this thread go forward in there training "taking baby steps" at first, but a simple learning lesson in rescuing a drowning victum is to approch them from behind...see if you didnt know that you just learned something.

2 more psi


Bubski

[Victoria]

TY B2B.

This thread has taken on a whole new subject..and I understand where Victoria is coming from. Its to bad that Sully was denied his interview today, apparently by the NTSB? I'm sure when he is allowed to talk he will say that ordinary people where doing the extraordinary under the circumstances. I still highly recommend that divers reading this thread go forward in there training "taking baby steps" at first, but a simple learning lesson in rescuing a drowning victum is to approch them from behind...see if you didnt know that you just learned something.

2 more psi


Bubski

[peterbj7]

then the operation turned into a recovery because of this person who rushed in and drowned

Did someone die? I hadn't read that.

[Scubatooth]

B2B - one report i read is saying that the captain isnt speaking on TV right now at the request of the union that represents him. I think it was also something about a special agreement status. If i can find the article i will post the link

Peter - That's a yes, and i mentioned that in my original post.

Technically for medical examiner reports (in Texas atleast) when someone is drowned it means they died of submersion injuries from 0 to 23:59 minutes after the accident. After the 24 hour mark its called a near drowning event and there are other causes for death.

Edited by Scubatooth, 19 January 2009 - 10:07 PM.

[Scubatooth]

B2B - the original story has been pulled or expired from MSNBC here is a block link to some details

http://blog.top10fam...llenberger.html

[secretsea18]

then the operation turned into a recovery because of this person who rushed in and drowned

Did someone die? I hadn't read that.

Nobody died on the US Air flight or afterwards. All 155 persons aboard survived and are apparently well. Dan was referring to another incident.

[peterbj7]

But was that "other incident" associated with the jet crash-land?

Admins - I don't know how easy it would be to disentangle the PSD aspects of this thread and put them into a thread of their own, under some heading like "options for advanced training", or maybe just "PSD".....? This topic warrants a lot more input, partly for fringe professionals like me, but especially to show recreational divers "coming up in the system" an alternative route for advancement, and to demonstrate that PSD is a completely different world.

[secretsea18]

But was that "other incident" associated with the jet crash-land?

Completely unrelated to the Hudson River US Air accident.