45 replies to this topic

[Mitch0129]

For years here in Houston there have been proposals on the table to build a major airport near Katy, west of Houston, under the presumption that it take some of the load off Intercontinental and Hobby. They were all but ready to break ground and start construction until it was shown that the area a major bird habitat and has been that way for hundreds of years. This was a huge political issue here in the 80's and 90's, I have not heard anything further about it since turn of the century.

I talked to my brother who is a flight mechanic with Southwest, he told me that all it takes is for a couple of birds to get sucked into one of the engines to put it out of commission. I imagine it did not need to be a big flock to knock both engines out, I am amazed it has not happened more.

[weescot]

Has anyone found video of the actual landing?

I just saw it on CNN - some CCTV footage from a facility on the land looking out to the river. A bit distant, but you can see enough to see it is an aircraft landing. I expect it will be up on youtube soon....

[secretsea18]

Has anyone found video of the actual landing?

I just saw it on CNN - some CCTV footage from a facility on the land looking out to the river. A bit distant, but you can see enough to see it is an aircraft landing. I expect it will be up on youtube soon....

yes, that one is readily available, but nothing showing the moment the plane touches the water on it's belly.

As I suggested, either the NTSB has it or there isn't one from a private citizen.

Given that the touchdown was right by the USS Intrepid museum (retired Aircraft Carrier), you'd think there would be someone that saw and captured the actually moment of "belly touching water" with at least a camera phone. You would hear the plane and see that it was too low before the moment of "touchdown".

[gcbryan]

A great story all the way around for sure.

It's funny that whatever the story, the news never gets some of the simplest things right. We know how that is with scuba stories (running out of oxygen, etc.). For a major story like this however with expert pilots on retainer as commentators etc., the media still miss basic things.

One network (probably all networks) show a simulated landing with the plane coming in very nose high as it comes down (I'm not talking about the final few seconds). There is some talk about the pilot choosing to keep the nose high so the tail hits.

This plane had no power, so it was a glider. It's impossible to move through the sky with the nose high with no power. The nose would have been pushed over until the plane reached the proper glide speed (just short of stalling).

For the actual landing the plane would have leveled out just above the water and as the airspeed dissipated the nose would have been slowing raised until the plane fell out of the sky (landed). That's the only way it would happen, great pilot or not in this regard. I can only guess that the experts never actually see the simulated video and that they never hear the other on air reporters when they are talking about how the pilot decided to fly with the nose high so that the tail would hit first.

This is a great story however. I'm glad one turned out this way!

[shadragon]

Vid and pics here

[secretsea18]

Finally, a video of the belly landing of the US Air plane.



Click here for the link.


And here is a 10 minute continuous video of the belly landing with the subsequent rescue by the NY Waterway Ferries. You can see the USS Intrepid and the Concord parked on the Manhattan shore. This is a video from the USCG from the New Jersey side.

Both video clips are inspiring!

Edited by secretsea18, 17 January 2009 - 02:16 PM.

[Divegirl412]

A great story all the way around for sure.

It's funny that whatever the story, the news never gets some of the simplest things right. We know how that is with scuba stories (running out of oxygen, etc.). For a major story like this however with expert pilots on retainer as commentators etc., the media still miss basic things.

One network (probably all networks) show a simulated landing with the plane coming in very nose high as it comes down (I'm not talking about the final few seconds). There is some talk about the pilot choosing to keep the nose high so the tail hits.

This plane had no power, so it was a glider. It's impossible to move through the sky with the nose high with no power. The nose would have been pushed over until the plane reached the proper glide speed (just short of stalling).

For the actual landing the plane would have leveled out just above the water and as the airspeed dissipated the nose would have been slowing raised until the plane fell out of the sky (landed). That's the only way it would happen, great pilot or not in this regard. I can only guess that the experts never actually see the simulated video and that they never hear the other on air reporters when they are talking about how the pilot decided to fly with the nose high so that the tail would hit first.

This is a great story however. I'm glad one turned out this way!

The really fortuitous thing is that the pilot was not only very experienced, and previous USAF, but also has a flight safety consulting company AND is a glider pilot. Probably explains quite a bit about how he achieved what he did. How lucky that he was piloting the plane at this particular time. You can find his company website by googling his name. Pretty amazing.

[Bubble2Bubble]

I hope that this thread will help divers understand about the importance of being a rescue diver and a first responder including CPR etc... The Captain is a Hero no question about it, but as this story unfolds you well see that the quick reponce of Trained first responders was the key to the passengers survival. I believe I saw one report that the Hudson River rescue team had just completed a Training exercise and the ferry boat Captains followed there Training.... PLZ get involved as a rescue diver and first responder and follow your Training, then when you get tired of Training ..then Train somemore. have I mentioned Training Yet. I hope more accidents can end with a smily face

[Capn Jack]

This plane had no power, so it was a glider. It's impossible to move through the sky with the nose high with no power. The nose would have been pushed over until the plane reached the proper glide speed (just short of stalling).

I read one report that a system tracking the flight showed it reached a maximum speed of 194 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) and was at 153 KIAS passing through 300 feet.

I'm not certified in an A320, but I do hold an ATP license and have a few hours behind my now embarrasingly large belt, including two unintentional glider landings.

Maximum glide speed (Vg) for all aircraft I've ever flown is well above stall (Vsmin) - and you're right, it would be nose down. Vg is the speed the Captain would have aimed for and held from the point where they lost power to the point where he chose to start rotating the nose up. His goal would be to rotate the nose up, trading the kinetic energy he had at Vg for sink rate. Ideally managing his energy to have the tail hit the water with almost zero sink rate, and be slightly above Vsmin.

The airbus weight and balance document I read shows stall speed ranging from about 105 to 142 KCAS (Knots Calibrated Airspeed) depending on weight and some other factors like aircraft flaps/slats configuration. For this relatively short flight, the weight would be below the maximum, so the Captain probably had 15-30 Knots to play with between Vg and Vsmin. I would think he'd start rotating well below 300' - probably in the neighborhood of 100-150 feet.

One of the most impressive things about this was his sense for when to start rotating and bleeding off airspeed to hit that sweet spot of zero sink rate at touch down, and still slightly above Vsmin. This is pretty hard to train for, and as far as I know, no empirical data was collected.

If you don't follow all of this - check out the ultimate glider - a space shuttle landing - they are very nose down - until about 700 feet and 320 Knots - they rotate to about 10-15 degrees nose up and bleed off over 110knots, touching down at just about 200k.

And for those who've cheered on this AFP - let me remind you Navy runways are ALMOST as long as Air Force runways are wide - but he did a great job, even for an AFP.

Edited by Capn Jack, 18 January 2009 - 07:57 AM.

[shadragon]

And for those who've cheered on this AFP - let me remind you Navy runways are ALMOST as long as Air Force runways are wide - but he did a great job, even for an AFP.

True, but the Air Force does not have tail hooks, multiple arrestor cables and barricades to use on a daily basis... ...and in any event his aircraft was no fighter... Amazing pilot skill.

[Scubatooth]

I hope that this thread will help divers understand about the importance of being a rescue diver and a first responder including CPR etc... The Captain is a Hero no question about it, but as this story unfolds you well see that the quick reponce of Trained first responders was the key to the passengers survival. I believe I saw one report that the Hudson River rescue team had just completed a Training exercise and the ferry boat Captains followed there Training.... PLZ get involved as a rescue diver and first responder and follow your Training, then when you get tired of Training ..then Train somemore. have I mentioned Training Yet. I hope more accidents can end with a smily face

First off you have to give the NYFD and NYPA Divers credit for what they did and fast. Theres alot of irony in that this happened close to where they were training so that they could launch quickly. Its all good because no one got hurt and they where able to keep the aircraft on the surface for a very long period of time. That diver that jumped out of the bird has my respect as thats one heck of a giant stride.

Very good point B2B, but I want to add to this. Yes we are all trained recreational divers (and percentage beyond that), but that doesnt mean you have the training or experince to do Public Safety Dive work. If you are interested do your research on the local teams and meet with them and see how they work, and see if it is a match for you, because for somepeople its not. if it is a match join the team then get the training. Don't just jump in and try and be a hero cause thats a good way to get hurt or drown.

Reason I say this is that there was a incident(It probably wont make the news either) not to long ago where a person was wanting to be a hero who wasnt PSD trained decided they where going to help and drowned causing a much bigger issue with more victims.

[secretsea18]

First off you have to give the NYFD and NYPA Divers credit for what they did and fast. Theres alot of irony in that this happened close to where they were training so that they could launch quickly. Its all good because no one got hurt and they where able to keep the aircraft on the surface for a very long period of time. That diver that jumped out of the bird has my respect as thats one heck of a giant stride.

Not to diminish the efforts of the FDNY and NYPD in the rescue efforts, but the FIRST RESPONDERS to this accident were the ferries of the NY Waterway ferry services. If you watch the Coast Guard 10 minute video in my above link you will see that there were 3-4 NYWaterway ferries on the scene within ~4 minutes of the landing, well before any FD or PD boats.
The divers went in to look inside to confirm that all passengers were out and make other assessments, but they did not get anyone out themselves, that was all done before they even got on the scene. The first FD or PD divers (don't remember which from the diver who was on the scene) were taken there on a Circle Line tour boat, according to the diver's actual interview. Next NTSB update is at 4pm EST.

[Scubatooth]

Robyn

I havent been able to get the videos to load to view them. if thats the case on the ferries that they got there that quick they deserve the recognition for acting as fast as i they did.

[Bubble2Bubble]

The Captain will have his first public intervue on NBC Today Show tomorrow 01/19/09 and I would not want to comment any further on anything.... till he tells his view of the events.

[Victoria]

[...] Don't just jump in and try and be a hero cause thats a good way to get hurt or drown.

Reason I say this is that there was a incident(It probably wont make the news either) not to long ago where a person was wanting to be a hero who wasnt PSD trained decided they where going to help and drowned causing a much bigger issue with more victims.

I will apologise to all before I continue with this post, for I tried very hard not to respond to this for over 12 hours.

Sincerely with all due respect, this is an egregiously arrogant commentary, for several significant reasons. To presume that "not PSD trained" Joe Schmoe acted out of a desire to "be a hero" entirely discounts the human instinct to act in emergencies rather than spectate. However unskilled he may have been, belittling that individual's effort by chalking up his drowning death to ego -- thereby "causing a much bigger issue" for the first responders -- comes across rather poorly. Unskilled and minimally trained average people, from divers to Cub Scouts, regularly save lives when impelled to act. Lastly, occasionally even highly qualified rescue personnel have run afoul of unforeseen variables and paid with their lives. Do their quals make their deaths more worthy, or honorable?