75 replies to this topic

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

Between something I read recently, and the "If I should die while diving" letter that KateP showed me on the T&C trip (I hope she will post it here), I got to thinking about the traditional dive buddy system, the liabilities of that system, and how our interpretation of it seems to have changed or evolved over time. I'd be interested in your thoughts as well. Remember, this is for discussion only; issues may be discussed "in theory" and may not actually reflect how we personally feel on the subject, but just to bring other perspectives into the light. We should consider ALL buddy pairs, on SD.com trips and other trips, as many of us do not dive exclusively with SD.com.

Please do not take this into the Solo Diving Training or the Self-Rescue realm, as that is not the purpose of this discussion.

Respect, as always, should be considered in your posts. To make is simpler, we will use "he" instead of typing "he/she" all the time. No inference intended!


"Always dive with a buddy" was something I was taught (actually it was hammered into me during OW training) The buddy's job is to help you if you get into trouble underwater, and get you back to the surface, hopefully alive & well.

But what if he doesn't, or can't? What if he is some distance away from you underwater when trouble pops up? What if he is a photographer, and looking through his viewfinder when trouble pops up? Or just plain engrossed in peeking into this hole or that crevasse? What if he freaks out and can't remember his training? What if he does the wrong thing entirely? What if he just doesn't realize you have a problem? There are many ways & reasons a dive buddy may not be paying attention to you the entire dive....let's face it - we dive to look at the critters, not each other!

We live in a litigious society (unfortunately, IMHO). We sign waivers right & left in order to get into the water & dive. Would you yourself if you are injured, or encourage your heirs if you die, to sue an unhelpful dive buddy, or a Dive Leader on a trip, or the Dive Operation itself?

And, with all the cool distractions underwater (critters, corals, photos, and other divers), what can we do to get back to the original premise of being there for your buddy if/when he needs you?

[dive_sail_etc]

It is always part of my dive profile to pay more than cursory attention to my buddy's location and activities. That said, we all know conscientious good dive buddy practices are emphasized in both basic and advanced dive training curriculum; however, like driving, it is incumbent on the individual to practice those and other safe skills in the real world until they become second nature.

Of course, that is merely part of the equation as it relates to the issue posed. I glance over at my buddy probably dozens of times in a typical dive, now numbering over 350. In all that time I have only been called upon in perhaps a dozen instances for problems ranging from assistance with BC fit or camera problems to actual out of air situations (only thrice in 26 years, thank goodness, most recently on the ill fated Spiegel Grove dive last May). Having a positive, can-do mind set is also an essential good buddy skill. See it in your mind, think it through before the first bubbles are blown, and if called upon keep your cool and remember your training. And yes, I have been the grateful recipient of a dive buddy's attention and assistance, typically when forgetting to cinch down my tank strap with the usual comic results.

As to the litigiousness of today's society, I refer to this simple formula. Lawyers = shark bait.

Lecture over. Recess!

[Capn Jack]

ummmm - not sure what you want to hear. I don't think about SCUBA as an inherently super dangerous, on-the-edge sport, it's something millions enjoy without a significant number of fatalities to put it in the category of say, Alabama Game Warden or Arkansas Trailer Repo man.

I hear two directions when reading through your thread opener...

1. You are very capable but don't have faith that your buddy is at the level you're at and you don't trust them to provide the level of assistance you might need if you got into extremis.

2. You are uncertain of your abilities and need a strong buddy to rely on for navigation, safety, gas management etc etc.

So my answers on how do you handle that? (Free advice, worth what you paid for it)

In case 1 - (I know you don't want to talk solo/rescue but...) continue your education and training and go for solo cert, buy the gear so you are as self-sufficient as possible, so you can minimize the anxiety of not having a buddy come riding in like the cavalry when needed

In case 2 - if your capabilities are such that your buddy must be ever-vigilant for your needs, and likely not to screw up when needed - then hire a DM Keep on training until you're confident you can be the buddy you'd like to have.

If you want to what-if - you'll probably end up staying at home or on the boat - but I truly believe you're more likely to die on the way to the airport - the fatality rate of diving is incredibly small if you look at the numbers. You are more exposed to other hazards like stings, falls, sprains, lead dropping on your foot - but that's part of the risks you've agreed to accept and take appropriate precautions - most of which are self-controllable and not something you can lay off on a buddy.

I'd repeat what is pretty much the mantra of good diving, plan the dive, dive the plan. And most of all Have Fun

[WreckWench]

I think divers fall into 2 categories...

1. Divers who believe in the buddy system and trust in the buddy system to work as they were taught it would.
2. Divers who believe in the buddy system but do not trust in the buddy system to work as they were taught it would.

You could say there is a 3rd category which are divers who do not believe in the buddy system and do not trust in the buddy system but if that category exists I have not met anyone who truly falls into it and if they did they are most likely offshoots of category two and probably still intellectually believe in the buddy system only the opt for pony bottles, redundant air supplies etc as their 'buddy'.

I think you can get into many reasons why this divide seems to exist and perhaps that is why you have asked the question.

However if you fall into the latter of the two categories that I see exists... (again only my opinion) then the popularity of additional training such as solo diver, or rescue makes more sense.

And as an aside I think all divers should advance their training to encompass Rescue training regardless of the agency as it makes you a BETTER BUDDY and it makes you a BETTER DIVER.

Now what do I believe in? I believe in the buddy system and 99% of the time I fall into category one however since I often dive with newer divers, I also realize the limitations that exist regarding how much help I might realistically receive from my buddy if all heck hit the fan. However as a dive pro I am trained to not rely on that help and I must be prepared to self rescue. There is noting wrong with that...it is just the nature of the role. As a result when diving with newer divers we only dive to their experience and their abilities so they can assist if needed. When diving more challenging conditions I know I look to ensure that my buddy has the same skills, experiences, training and abilities to support that diving situation.

SingleDivers.com places a lot of importance on dive buddies and works very hard so you will have a good dive buddy. We look at a lot of parameters including skill, experience, style, preferences etc. We go beyond the normal dive buddy pairing parameters which is a result of our own understanding of how people dive. Dive buddy teams are not only important for safety reasons but also enhance the full enjoyment and experience of our dives. If we are not with a suitable buddy we simply will not have a good dive and at the end of the day...that is why we work hard to save money to go diving in the first place... to have a good time!

Good question Tammy ...one I hope will inspire a lot of thought and discussion on this subject/topic.

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

I am not looking to "hear" anything specific, just bringing a subject to light for discussion. I don't think there are any right or wrong answers, just differences in buddy styles, so to speak. The questions I posed do not necessarily relate to me, my skill level, or my confidence in myself or my dive buddies. I am personally comfortable with just about every dive buddy I have had, with just a few exceptions. Being a Rescue Diver does give me confidence, but am I always near my buddy? Are my buddies comfortable with me as their buddy, as I carry a camera u/w?

Do advanced divers hate to be paired up with newbies, because of a feeling that a newbie could not be helpful during an emergency? For that matter, does a newbie hate to be paired up with an advanced diver simply because they are not comfortable taking additional risks an advanced diver sometimes takes (i.e. diving in strong current, or deeper than a newbie prefers)?

I recently lost (as in disappeared from my life, not that anyone died) a very good friend over dive buddy issues & lack of communication underwater and/or different expectations of what a dive buddy is. As an u/w photog hack, I do tend to look for things to photograph rather than keeping an eagle eye on my buddy. I generally know where my buddy is and about how far away they are, unless they dive "above and behind" me.

I personally could be the "bad buddy" in a given situation, if I am taking a photo and my buddy got separated from me while I'm engrossed & something goes wonky for them.

Does this mean that taking photos underwater is prohibits you from being a good dive buddy? Or is it the non-photo-taking buddy's responsibility to stick close to the photographer? Photographers are usually pretty good at pointing out critters to their buddies, but they do take their eyes off their buddies for a considerable period of time sometimes. I'm thinking of using a single-tap-my-tank system to notify my buddy when I'm stopping to take a photo.

All questions that should be brought to light & discussed. If nothing else, it will help us personally determine what type of dive buddy we are, and which type of buddy we want to be paired up with.

[WreckWench]

Aha! Good set of questions...and perhaps what you were initially intending? Or just add'l thoughts on the subject.

Thank you for the add'l explanation and/or question extension. kamala

[secretsea18]

Does this mean that taking photos underwater is prohibits you from being a good dive buddy?

Taking images underwater does prevent you from being an "attentive" buddy, if you are relatively serious about the photography.

So, yes IMO, being a serious photographer prevents you from being that sort of attentive buddy.

I also think that most photographers are very pleased/comfortable with their buddy not being close or right by them (read that as "getting in the way") all the time, except for when you share subjects. A photographer who "needs" their buddy right by their side, probably should not be doing photography at all, and entirely concentrating on their diving.

[TexasDiver]

Lawyers = shark bait.

Everyone hates lawyers ... except their own!

Edited by TexasDiver, 19 September 2010 - 02:23 PM.

[Scubatooth]

Oh this is a good subject, but let me put a disclaimer on this. These are my own thought and reasons and do not represent any agency or group.

I would be interested in seeing what Kate has in her letter as I have a similar one filed in multiple places and will have to find it, when i get a few other items done first.

WW - Im probably a 2nd category diver by what you posted.

For me for the most part when i enter the water I dont expect anyone to save my butt if something should go wrong as I plan for contingencies(side-mount, bailout, SMB, spools, reel, epirb, etc) if it hits the fan. I dive with a buddy but that person is on level and has there act together (equip configuration, skills, cert, planning, etc).

My biggest pet peeve as a diver is paying for the pleasure to or being forced to babysit a insta-buddy because of the way boats put people together. If i go on a dive boat and dont have a buddy with me I plan to dive solo, and i tell the operator that in advance. Failure for someone to plan on there part does not mean a emergency reaction is needed on mine. Now if a operator forces me to babysit someone that operator can expect to refund my dive fee as there are legal and liability issues there being forced on me that I don't want any part of that.

Im also a photographer as well, which to some means im a bad diver and buddy, for which i wont get into that debate as i would most likely break the TOS for speaking my mind. When im shooting during a dive Im a diver first and photographer second as if you arent taking care of what you need to for the dive you wont get the photo. I also make sure i keep situational awareness so that I don't screw the pooch by either getting my gas to low or just plain doing something stupid. A good example was in 2007 when i was in PR i was doing a photo dive where I was taking about 2-8 photos a minute for 90 minutes but while doing that I was keeping track of my body, but apparently he was thinking something was wrong as he kept asking me if i was okay as 2-3 times a minute i would look there direction to make sure things where kosher. In the 90 mins of the dive I only used 1400 psi of a alum 80 while they sucked there's dry and it was me who noticed the issue as i looked at there gauge and noticed it was below 500 psi, and terminated the dive. Even with 2 dives on my tank and taking 10 minutes to come up from 60 feet i still exited the water with 800psi in the tank.

Lawyers = shark bait.

Everyone hates lawyers ... except their own!

The majority ruin it for the minority. I will bite my tongue when it comes to lawyers and lawsuits especially in the dive industry as it would break the TOS quicker the lightening strikes.

[lv2dive70]

Below please find my adaptation of "If I should die while diving" modified from the original on Scubaboard.com. I take a signed copy of this on all my trips. Somehow it came up on this last trip, and a few people asked me to post it. Kamala wanted me to post it to our trip private forum for discussion.

Now a few have asked me to post here so I am. I can see how this could provoke thought-it did for me when I first saw the baseline on Scubaboard. My question: Is this something good to add as an optional document for trips? Note- I do NOT mean as something for the trip coordinators to track, but as optional documentation that people COULD include in their sealed envelope if they chose.


I, ______________________________, do solemnly declare the following:

To the SCUBA community:

If I should die while diving, please do not hesitate to discuss the incident and assess every element with a view to furthering your understanding of how to enhance diver safety.

If I should die while diving, get the facts. They won't be readily available and will definitely not be correct as reported by the media. But get the facts as best you can.

If I should die while diving, understand, as I already do, that it will most likely involve fault on my part to some degree or another so do not hesitate to point that out.

If I should die while diving, some of the fault may belong to my buddy and that needs to be honestly assessed as well, though I must admit, this is one area where I hope that compassion will be in the mix.

If I should die while diving, there might be those who try to squelch discussion out of a misplaced notion of respect for the deceased, family and friends. They can say nice things about me at my funeral... but in the SCUBA community I want the incident discussed.

To my family and friends:

Please support the SCUBA community with information/details on the circumstances of my death to support the discussion referenced above. Also, understand that these discussions will most likely not be comfortable for you to participate in; resist the temptation.

While some need for vengeance is understandable, I would ask that my survivors resist the temptation to sue someone. If after all of the investigation is complete, it appears that gross negligence was involved, then feel free to do what you feel is best. I have a personal aversion to the litigious nature of our society, and don't want someone sued just because I was doing what I love. I specifically request that my survivors not sue my dive buddy and/or his/her survivors, or singledivers.com or Kamala Shadduck.

I have had a great time since I got back into diving. It is a privilege and a joy to see and experience the world under the surface of the water, and my life has been so much more full because of my adventures. No regrets - if it was my time to go, at least I didn’t die in bed.

Love to all my family and friends... I’ll see you on the other side!



_____________________________________ ___________


___________________________ print name Date



Edited from the original (and other modifications) found at http://www.scubaboar...ile-diving.html


--------------------
How inappropriate to call this planet Earth when it is quite clearly Ocean. -- Arthur C. Clarke

[Scubatooth]

yup that was close to the document that i have. I have a clause in there about Arm Chair Law Enforcement/Accident Investigators/Medical Examiners, that that play the blame/slander/liable game.

[TexasDiver]

If I should die while diving, some of the fault may belong to my buddy and that needs to be honestly assessed as well, though I must admit, this is one area where I hope that compassion will be in the mix.

The language of just this one sentence contains several false implied premises and assumptions. The most glaring is that in the case of death while diving SOMEONE (other than the diver) is at fault. Also implied is that a dive buddy has a DUTY to act (what is the source of that duty? How far does it extend ... must the buddy risk his/her own life?). Further implied is the notion that the person(s) presumed liable ("guilty") should be shown "compassion" only if he/she was the "buddy" but in the case of any other (non-buddy) potentially "guilty" party it would be acceptable to assess the facts dishonestly. There are other problems with just this one sentence; the whole document is ambiguous, internally inconsistent, even contradictory, and of questionable legal import, IMHO.

Edited by TexasDiver, 19 September 2010 - 09:37 PM.

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

I don't believe the letter is intended to be a legal document....merely letting our friends & family know our preferences on how to handle or discuss our demise.

[lynnlchan]

... the whole document is ambiguous, internally inconsistent, even contradictory, and of questionable legal import, IMHO.

It's almost like it's not a comprehensive legal doc and almost more like a statement of feelings (ambiguous, internally inconsistent, even contradictory.)

We've all seen examples of a site/community at odds over how and what to discuss in regards to an incident. This seems like a nice way to leave a statement of your personal opinion. Thanks Kate.

[Parrotman]

I agree with Capn Jack on the point that I do not believe that Scuba diving is inherently dangerous. I have been diving for a long time and have been in the water with everything from a brand new diver to a veteran. In reality with over 750+ dives I can count on 3 fingers the times that I have been diving with what I would consider a "text book" dive buddy. I came up through the years diving with my sister and her husband who were semi pro photographers so in other words I was diving with out a buddy. After I stopped diving with them, for the next couple of hundred dives I was buddied up with insta buddies. Most of them were ok. some of them were what I would consider unsafe divers. I learned early on to depend on me not on them. If I am asked to buddy up with an newbie that needs a close watch I can do that. I am very observant of the people that I am diving with whether they are my "buddy" or not. I have on occasion been buddied with someone that although I was very aware of them, they were so preoccupied by the dive that I could have been dead and sinking to the bottom and they would not have known until they got on the boat and I was not there.

I guess my point is, I do not believe that the buddy system is effective. I do believe that it could have merit if it were followed to the letter but as I said in my experience it rarely is.

As an example on a recent dive trip ( there is no one on this board that this refers to so don't get your shorts in a knot if you have been diving with me lately) I was watching a dive team that had a very experienced diver buddied up with a newbie. I happen to know that the pre dive conversation was about the need for the experienced diver to be a very observant buddy for the newbie. I watched this pair through most of the dive and to be honest I would have rather had the newbie as a buddy than the experienced diver.

When I go diving and I am in the position that I am being buddied up with a diver that I do not know, I make it clear that I am a "same ocean same dive" buddy. That does not mean that I do not keep an eye on my buddy, but it does mean that I am not going to be glued to my dive buddy for the entire dive and if that is not going to work then they need to find a different buddy. The exception to this is when I am asked and I agree to stick by my buddy and then I will.

I am very comfortable diving solo. No, I am not "solo certified" however I have enough confidence in my skills and experience that I do not feel that I need to dive with a buddy. I also know my limits and I never dive beyond what I feel my experience and skills would allow.

I will say, and hopefully not offend anyone but I am sure that I will, I have found that the worst dive buddies out there are the ones that have been through all of the training and have all of the certifications. I have several dive friends that are dive masters or above and those are the ones that I have the least confidence in when it comes to being buddied up with them. I am NOT saying that if you have the experience and the certs that you are a bad buddy. I am saying that in my experience those with the most certification levels are generally not the best buddies. I hope that is not to contradictory, it makes sense in my head/ Lol!

In a nutshell, I think that dangerous divers are dangerous divers. Training and experience have little to do with it. You can be the best diver out there and be buddied up with a diver that should not take a bath in a bathtub let alone dive and you will be in a bad situation. You can be diving with a very aware super confident newbie and be totally safe because you know that they are not going to do anything stupid.

Jim