31 replies to this topic

[WreckWench]

Thank you guys and gals...

If just one person learns the value of a UPS and starts using one...then this will indeed be an incredible thread and a GREAT START TO THE NEW YEAR!!!



-p.s. broke this off from the backups thread to keep the content easier for people to use and find later!

[Racer184]

For homeowner's it's a tough call whether to replace the battery in a U.P.S. Often the cost of the battery plus shipping will exceed the cost of a whole new unit (for the smaller units).

For businesses, especially those that are in Union labour areas, it is always cheaper to throw away the UPS and buy a new one (for small units).

At around 1 kVA or so you will start seeing the choice of external battery. After you get up to about 2 kVA it is rare to find internal battery.

I am using APC 1 kVA units that I got free. Yes free. Got them from a company that would have had to pay $$$$$$$ in labour to change the battery, so they replaced the whole system.
(I lowered the float voltage 600 mV and now use RV style lead-acid battery).


I would like to clarify something I said earlier in regard to surge / lightning / etc protection. A UPS with the best surge protection in the world is unlikely to save the computer that is plugged into it if the computer is plugged into a printer that is plugged directly into the AC mains. So I highly recommend you plug EVERYTHING on your desk into the UPS.
The problem is for people that use "laser printers". Laser printers use such huge amounts of power (not for the laser, for the toner melter) that you will need a really big expensive UPS. So that is why twice in the last month I have turned down offers for FREE laser printers.

For those that are interested in details and may have very sensitive situations, there are two kinds of UPS.

• On-line
• Off-line

What ?

The off-line type is like the system that is a power supply running from a battery. Plus there is a charger charging the battery the whole time. Your computer will be running from AC created from the battery, and the battery is being charged at whatever rate to keep it charged.

The other kind, which is much cheaper, and is fine for lighting, fish tank pumps, refrigerators, etc. is On-line. The unit is in 'standby mode'... your computer or whatever is actually connected to the AC mains coming into your building. The unit will sense a power failure and then SWITCH OVER to a circuit which creates 110 V ac from the battery. This usually happens quite fast enough. Plenty fast enough for your fish tank pump and refrigerator, but maybe not fast enough for some computers.

Once you get to spending $800 or so (plus cost of battery) you will have a system that will generate "cleaner" electricity than what is coming into your building. Your computer does not care about how accurate the sine wave is..... but it sure hates 'drop outs' and excessively large spikes.

My opinion is that for small businesses that the UPS system should cost almost as much as the computer system.
For general internet cruising purposes, where a computer failure won't cost your days of income, then a $80 to $150 UPS will do.
(Neither of those two statements hold for people using laser printers.)

[WreckWench]

Alan thank you so much for all your insight.

What if you travel all the time like I do? I'm really focused on the back ups because of it but still not sure about the UPS since I'm not in the office much.

And is there a decent travel surge protector? Seems the surge protection is more critical for my purposes.

[shadragon]

Are there any UPSs made that have an external battery that is simply plugged in? For me and I suspect many people that would be an ideal solution. If you needed more capacity you could simply connect a larger battery or more than one in parallel.

The "Smart-UPS" series have add on battery packs you can add to increase the runtime on battery without having to replace the main box.

Kamala, a laptop battery should not be considered the same as a UPS battery. A UPS battery is isolated from the mains by a series of filters and other protections. A lightning bolt spiked through an electrical, DSL or phone line will destroy your laptop pretty darn quick. Of course, with a laptop you do not need a large UPS.

[peterbj7]

The "Smart-UPS" series have add on battery packs you can add to increase the runtime on battery without having to replace the main box.

Can you quote some specific models? I'm not sure how to go about finding one.

[UP Diver]

Peter -

We have several APC units in our office and like Simon, we have been using them since the early 1990s. One dedicated to server, one dedicated to phone system, one dedicated to router and patch panel, a couple more for specific equipment. ALL have internal lead acid batteries that have a finite lifetime. Not rocket science to replace the batteries - just remember to unplug (lock out/tag out), then open case. you will see the battery(s) - they are the largest components in the case and the heaviest. Easy to get replacements - Batteries Plus is the most competitive in North Texas, likely in the US. Battery replacement will run about 20%-50% the cost of a new unit.

Remember, they are HEAVY (weight wise)if you are trying to get replacements 'walked' into San Pedro!

UP Diver

[shadragon]

Can you quote some specific models? I'm not sure how to go about finding one.

Go to the sizing page I posted earlier and select a long runtime like 50-60 minutes. You will see something like the attached:

SUA3000XL is the UPS (runtime 69 minutes), and beside it is a SUA3000XL with expansion battery pack SUA48XLBP (Run time 262 minutes). Just one example. As I have no idea what you want for gear and runtime you can choose your own real world combination.

Disclaimer: Just for the record, I am not an agent, past or present employee of APC, or any of its affiliates or partners. These are just my observations from almost 20+ years of experience with their product line as a end user.

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[WreckWench]

Kamala, a laptop battery should not be considered the same as a UPS battery. A UPS battery is isolated from the mains by a series of filters and other protections. A lightning bolt spiked through an electrical, DSL or phone line will destroy your laptop pretty darn quick. Of course, with a laptop you do not need a large UPS.

Ok so when I'm in the office using laptop I need a UPS mostly for surge protection as my high capacity battery is already 9 hrs. When I'm traveling I probably need a travel surge protector if they make such a thing to protect against voltage issues from int'l currents, etc.

Am I getting this correct?


And THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR TIME, EFFORT, & CARING to help Peter, myself and all the others reading this thread looking for help/information/insight!

[peterbj7]

Kamala - absolutely! This thread (and forum generally) is a wonderful information resource. And Jim, I'd like to be able to use a standard boat battery, not just one that fits inside the case. Boat batteries have massively greater capacity and are relatively cheap here.

[shadragon]

Ok so when I'm in the office using laptop I need a UPS mostly for surge protection as my high capacity battery is already 9 hrs. When I'm traveling I probably need a travel surge protector if they make such a thing to protect against voltage issues from int'l currents, etc.

A UPS will provide surge protection, yes. Typically the next question is "Why not just buy a surge protector for 1/4 the cost of a UPS?", which is valid. A UPS also conditions power to level out the many ups and downs in electrical supply from the mains where a surge protector does not. Do your lights dim when your water pump kicks in? Do you have frequent brown-outs? This affects the quality of the electricity hitting your electronics. The more ups and downs, the more your electronics will be stressed. Also, if you are in a low voltage situation and only put 105V into a surge suppressor you can only get 105V out.

To put it metaphorically, a surge protector is like driving 60 MPH down a gravel road where a UPS is like driving 60 MPH down a paved highway. Which way will make your car last longer?

Personally, I would protect my entire house with a surge suppressor / lightning isolator and have UPS's on anything of value inside.

[peterbj7]

How effective are these things (surge protectors and UPS)? They're commonly used here, yet people still get equipment damaged by voltage surges. I know someone who had her new expensive TV plugged into a UPS when there was a voltage surge. The TV, her desktop computer (which was turned off but still connected) and other equipment was all destroyed. I have had several desktop computers totally destroyed by voltage surges (motherboard fried), even though each was connected to a UPS and no non-protected peripherals were connected. And there's an "expert" here who says that a conventional UPS is of no use here.

[WreckWench]

Thanks Simon...love the analogy!

Now what do I do for a travel version of a surge protector since I can't travel with a UPS.

[shadragon]

Thanks Simon...love the analogy!

Now what do I do for a travel version of a surge protector since I can't travel with a UPS.

These should get you started. I called APC and they no longer make notebook suppressors, but they do have past items still for sale:

Option #1

Option#2

There are more options on Amazon. Note the different power plugs. Depends on your model laptop.

[WreckWench]

Simon I owe you so much!!! I usually leave my laptop plugged in at he resort so having a travel surge protector is probably very good for me.

Now what is the difference between:

Surge protector & surge suppressor?

Any difference between the following models besides some price variations?


APC 100-240V Surge Protector for Notebook (PNOTEPROC6) 4.2 out of 5 stars (12)
$18.20

APC SurgeArrest Notebook Pro - surge suppressor ( PNOTEPROC8 ) 4.2 out of 5 stars (15)
$18.62

APC PNOTEPRO3 Surge Arrest Notebook Pro Surge Protector 3.2 out of 5 stars (5)
$29.64

[shadragon]

Now what is the difference between:

Surge protector & surge suppressor?

These appear to be marketing descriptions so practically no difference.

Any difference between the following models besides some price variations?

APC 100-240V Surge Protector for Notebook (PNOTEPROC6) 4.2 out of 5 stars (12)
$18.20

APC SurgeArrest Notebook Pro - surge suppressor ( PNOTEPROC8 ) 4.2 out of 5 stars (15)
$18.62

APC PNOTEPRO3 Surge Arrest Notebook Pro Surge Protector 3.2 out of 5 stars (5)
$29.64

You will have to look at the style of plug in each above and the type you have on your notebook power supply to make sure they match. You plug your power supply into the surge suppressor then plug your laptop into the surge suppressor so it is inline. I would start with your manufacturers web site and look for a compatibility list. However, any APC surge protector (whether built for a notebook or not) will protect your device. The ones above are just lighter and designed specifically for notebooks and travel. So they would be a lot smaller and lighter for your many diving sojourns.