19 replies to this topic

[Greg@ihpil]

My oldest son Michael got his C card last yr.Last night , he had his trial dive( in a local pool) with his smiles & purchase of new equipment.. The OWNER of the shop briefed him on several aspects of the B/C and his new computer etc. The B/c was a Mares Pegusus Bladder style, with a integrated wt. system..In the process of figuring his bouancy .He established it . I heard the OWNER tell him to put/leave all the wt in the rear of his b/c & leave the pockets out..In spite of countering the fwd motion he was encountering,it's the wrong answer in my opinion..
I couldn't beleive my ears..Without causing any argument.I informed my son later, how wrong that advise was..#1 What happens in a Out of Air Scenario, or a equipment failure,and you have to make a Emergency ascent? You have no way to dump your wt.

..#2 Whats the point of having the Integrated system then..For me thats how some accidents happen..

Concerned Father... Would like to hear SD members thoughts...

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

My tank pockets are dump-able....as long as my range-of-motion will allow the reach. BUT, they are not designed to hold ALL of the weight I need, so I divide my total lead by 4 pockets and load accordingly.

Check to see if his tank pockets are dump-able. If they are, your son needs to learn how to dump them. If they are NOT dump-able, then I would be interested in hearing what the shop owner's logic is....

[Greg@ihpil]

Would like to hear SD members thoughts...

I'm unclear here--is all his weight in rear pockets by the tank and not dumpable? How much weight are we talking about?

Have you privately asked the shop owner about his advice in light of your concerns? There may be something that you are not aware of going on.

Thanks for the response...
As for the rear pockets John. They have a Velcro cover & yes it's by or next to the tank.As for wt.Granted he only had 10 lbs. on in the POOL.. As for talking to the Owner..He tends to be a my way or no way ..
Maybe I'm just being a DAD??

[Greg@ihpil]

My tank pockets are dump-able....as long as my range-of-motion will allow the reach. BUT, they are not designed to hold ALL of the weight I need, so I divide my total lead by 4 pockets and load accordingly.

Check to see if his tank pockets are dump-able. If they are, your son needs to learn how to dump them. If they are NOT dump-able, then I would be interested in hearing what the shop owner's logic is....

Thanks,Tammy, no I asked my son,they are not.. I guess I'll have to ask what the logic behind his answer is.I know there is a Balance one needs. But I just thought of the consequences for doing such a practice..I

[Greg@ihpil]

Scott, I realize the scenarios might be a little extreme.I 'm alway's checking my computer.However since my son is just getting started ,as I point out.I thought that was a precarious method to store weight & possibly be dangerous.
I agree if one is within Rec.limits then,everything(emergency accent) should be fine.I just think not having acces to ones wt's is unsafe..
The bottom line is , you never know when or where a Tornado will strike either....."other than a complete buoyancy failure condition where the bladder simply won't hold any air?"
Don't get me wrong I'm not disagreeing ,as we are all taught . We try to prepare for the unexpected..
You can't fault me for being ,just a Dad I guess..

[Jerrymxz]

I'd like to pose a new point of view. If you are diving in a 7mil suit, how much weight are you going to need to get down and hold a safety stop at the end of your dive? For me that's at least 30 lbs of lead. If I'm at 70 feet how much has my suit compressed and resulting loss of buoyancy? I'm guessing almost 20lbs. Now I must add that amount of air to my wing to offset that suit compression to maintain neutral buoyancy. If I can't offset that weight for whatever reason, like auto-inflator malfunction or unhooked, OOA, tear in the wing, corrugated hose popped off or any other reason I am in deep kimchee. How many people can swim up to where the suit will regain some of its buoyancy 20lbs "overweighed"? I would only ditch underwater in a scenario like this where the other option is drowning.

[peterbj7]

I KNOW I replied to this but my answer isn't here...!

IMO there should always be sufficient dumpable weight to ensure positive buoyancy with a normal gear configuration. The rest can go in non-dumpable locations. It's what all agencies teach, for good reason. This shop keeper sounds like a dangerous idiot.

I do have two questions. Why should the location of weights cause forward motion? And what is a "bladder style" BC - I thought they all had bladders?

Edited by peterbj7, 04 March 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[Greg@ihpil]

I KNOW I replied to this but my answer isn't here...!

IMO there should always be sufficient dumpable weight to ensure positive buoyancy with a normal gear configuration. The rest can go in non-dumpable locations. It's what all agencies teach, for good reason. This shop keeper soulds like a dangerous idiot.

I do have two questions. Why should the location of weights cause forward motion? And what is a "bladder style" BC - I thought they all had bladders?

Peter,
Yes your right in saying they all have bladders.
My understanding of Bladder was ,your bouancy (bags/containers) ,for lack of a better term is of a style that their in behind you ..vs a Jacket syle that surrounds you.
Thank you for seeing my point...."It's what all agencies teach,for good reason."peterbj7 & Jerry...

[shadragon]

Having the ability to dump weights gives you an extra option. Not just for you, but the Rescue diver who is hauling your unconscious body to the back of the dive platform as well. The ability to get rid of extra weight in a hurry to make someone positively buoyant (even with a punctured bladder) is something that is ingrained in every rescue course. Lot easier to do that than use shears or a knife to cut a web belt.

I cannot say I am fully up on what the situation was, but not using dumpable weight pockets if you have them is a little silly in my mind and not something I would recommend.

[peterbj7]

The issue of a punctured bladder is a good one. I know of a case where a life was lost because the BC bladder was ruptured. In that case the diver was wearing a weight belt but didn't dump it (I guess panic took over) but the point remains. You can always remove your BC and swim to the surface, but that means you also dump your survival system - your tank and reg. Comes down to practice of emergency scenarios - if you carry non-dumpable weight practice taking off your BC, removing the weights, putting the BC back on again, then heading for the surface. Seems stressful? - that is a paramount reason for practicing it.

IANTD have a mantra - "in a stressful situation it is the poorly learned skills that are forgotten first". Think about that.

Edited by peterbj7, 06 March 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[WreckWench]

I think Greg means a back inflate bladder vs jacket style. I think the Dive Shop owner is suggesting the weight be on his back like people accomplish with a backplate and wing configuration rather than have all the weight around your waist in your pockets. Some integrated bc's tend to have the velcro pockets go out so the dive shop owner's suggestions may also be centered on minimizing that issue as well by not having all the wight in the two side pouches.

Greg it is a good idea to talk to the dive shop owner ans ask him this?

What is the advantage to putting all the weight in the back pockets vs some in the side weight pouches etc.

Regardless if he is a "my way or no way" guy...he should have a good answer for the question above and at this point WE'D ALL LOVE TO KNOW WHAT HE HAD IN MIND. So asking him and sharing would be great.

Good thread... and a chance to learn once we know what the shop owner's idea was in his original suggestion.

[WreckWench]

IANTD have a mantra - "in a stressful situation it is the poorly learned skills that are forgotten first". Think about that.

SO TRUE!!!!

In fact on yesterday's dive I ripped my own mask off like I had been kicked by a diver just to deal with the surprise and then regain composure and put my mask back on and not change my bouyancy. I succeeded on all accounts!

But its important for me to practice this skill as its my weakest skill and I do not want that to be the case in an emergency!