19 replies to this topic

[Greg@ihpil]

I think Greg means a back inflate bladder vs jacket style. I think the Dive Shop owner is suggesting the weight be on his back like people accomplish with a backplate and wing configuration rather than have all the weight around your waist in your pockets. Some integrated bc's tend to have the velcro pockets go out so the dive shop owner's suggestions may also be centered on minimizing that issue as well by not having all the wight in the two side pouches.

Greg it is a good idea to talk to the dive shop owner ans ask him this?

What is the advantage to putting all the weight in the back pockets vs some in the side weight pouches etc.

Regardless if he is a "my way or no way" guy...he should have a good answer for the question above and at this point WE'D ALL LOVE TO KNOW WHAT HE HAD IN MIND. So asking him and sharing would be great.

Good thread... and a chance to learn once we know what the shop owner's idea was in his original suggestion.

Thank's again!!!!
Yes,K you interpreted my B/C description's. Jacket vs Back inflate bladder.I guess I used the Bladder term to loosely.As for my son ,It's comforting to know ,I wasn't just a over protective Dad. The "what if scenario's" are what we learn & what to do..The no dump option was not right in my mind.. I will ask the shop owner & let you all know what the reason behind his "instruction" was.

Edited by Greg@ihpil, 07 March 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[ScubaTurtle]

I think Greg means a back inflate bladder vs jacket style. I think the Dive Shop owner is suggesting the weight be on his back like people accomplish with a backplate and wing configuration rather than have all the weight around your waist in your pockets. Some integrated bc's tend to have the velcro pockets go out so the dive shop owner's suggestions may also be centered on minimizing that issue as well by not having all the wight in the two side pouches.

Greg it is a good idea to talk to the dive shop owner ans ask him this?

What is the advantage to putting all the weight in the back pockets vs some in the side weight pouches etc.

Regardless if he is a "my way or no way" guy...he should have a good answer for the question above and at this point WE'D ALL LOVE TO KNOW WHAT HE HAD IN MIND. So asking him and sharing would be great.

Good thread... and a chance to learn once we know what the shop owner's idea was in his original suggestion.

"The Son" although I'd prefer to be know by my user name after this post. I'm posting here as a reply with the owners opinion and his offspring. I emailed the shop and got the following replies. The first one is from the dive shop owner's offspring who is a pretty experienced diver as well. Diving for at least 10+ years.

My email is first and the owners off spring is after that and then the owner himself replied. (Quick replies) He was nice enough to actually reply from a dive trip he's on right now actually so I was surprised at how fast the response came from him. The owners off spring also replied very quickly. I've scrubbed the emails of names and locations to try to keep it anonymous.


++++++++++++My Email++++++++++++
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{Dive Shop Owner Name},
I've recently spoken with some other scuba divers about my test dive and my equipment setup. They asked about weight and I explained what you had told me. I remember on the dive we discussed the weights and you had told me that I could likely dive with just the tank weights. I could leave the dump-able pockets empty unless I needed even more weight for diving with a thicker wet suit. Many of the divers were concerned when I discussed not using any weights in the BC weight pockets that are dump-able. I wondered again what your recommendation was for this and what was the reasoning behind possibly not using the integrated BC pockets? I know being balanced in the water was one of them but I wonder if there is another way to get more balanced in the water then just not putting any weight in the front pockets. Thanks for your time.
Sincerely,
-Mike {LASTNAME}
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1st Reply
++++++++++++Dive Shop Owner Offspring's Reply++++++++++++
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Mike,

{Dive Shop Owner} and {Dive Shop Owner's Wife} both are in {CountryName} until the {TimeFrame}.But I do know why {Dive Shop Owner} said this. With a back inflate bcd you do want more weight in the back non dumpable pockets than in the front because it will keep you from having the feeling of being pushed forward. You can put weight in the front pockets. For example, say you use 10lbs of weight, you can put two 3# weights in the back and put two 2# weights in the front that way you have slightly more weight in the back than in the front, this will still keep you balanced. By diving with only weights in the back you do run a risk of not being able to dump your weights in an emergency situation. I also have a back inflate bcd and I use 10# of weight, all of my weight I put in the back non dumpable pockets, I know the risk I am taking by not being able to dump my weights, but in an emergency situation my bcd will allow me to get to the surface even with those 10# of weight. I am not over weighting myself in that case. When you are diving colder water with thicker suits, then we suggest using the front pockets, just because the back non dumpable pockets have a maximum capacity of 5# each. You can go either way with the weight.{Dive Shop Owner} and I both dive with all of our weight in the back pockets when we're diving in warm water. It is really your personal preference and what you are comfortable with. If you are not comfortable with not having weights to dump out of your bcd, then you can utilize the front pockets. Not utilizing the front integrated pockets is just an option and a personal choice for some divers. When you only need a few pounds of weight, it is safe to say that your bcd will get you to the surface if needed, because the lift capacity of your bcd is much greater than the amout of weight you put in it in warmer waters. When you have over 20# of weight then you would need to utilize those front pockets. I hope this helps you out. {Dive Shop Owner} was giving you suggestions based on what he does and what he's seen with your style of bcd. It just depends on what you're comfortable with doing.

{Dive Shop Owner Offspring Name}

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2nd Reply
++++++++++++Dive Shop Owner Reply++++++++++++
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Hi Mike, we are in {CountryName} and received your message.


It's about what you feel works best for you and the type of diving you are doing.

The weight systems are all about balance. In a salt water dive where you are wearing less thermal protection and the weight you require is reduced the amount of weight you have available to offset the back inflate system is greatly reduced. What I said, is that in some instances the only way to offset the back inflate is to wear the weight in the back which may leave your front pockets without enough weight or empty but you have to work with your equipment to see what works best for you. Split up the weights and see what works best for you is the best answer. I also said that you shouldn't load up the BCD with all the weight and that you should think about a weight belt in the dives that require additional weight and to move the weights forward on the belt so that no matter which way your body is positioned in the water column you would be balanced. Sorry for the confusion but as you can see already everyone does it differently so take all the information, balance it with your diving experience and you will find a solution that is right for you.

So it's just as much diver preference as what works for the individual diver.

Regards,

{Dive Shop Owner Name}
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My Summary Thoughts:
After reading all the SD forum replies and hearing the dive shop owner's explanation again and his offspring's opinion I'm more comfortable with what they are saying but I don't have enough experience with my equipment to make a determination yet. To start off on my first dive I'll be loading up the front BCD pockets with at least 1/2 the weight I'll need and see what happens from there. I do recognize the risks of loading only the back tank pockets. From this point I'm going to have to evaluate those risks and see where to go from there. I like the idea that the dive shop owner presented though of possibly using a weight belt to move the weight to where you need it. From what I've read elsewhere in some magazines that might be what I need to do.

Looking forward now to testing out the new gear in open water so I can actually give things a whirl. The pool just doesn't give enough room to try things out so we'll just have to see how things work that first time and go from there. Safety for me will always be paramount and trump comfort in this case. If something is VERY uncomfortable there's likely something setup wrong that needs to be fixed.

-ScubaTurtle

[peterbj7]

I understand what they're saying and why they're saying it, but I'm still not happy with it as advice handed out to a newbie. I always think "what if", and having been involved with the recovery of a body whose owner died because her BCD failed and she evidently wasn't sufficiently on the ball to do anything about it, I tend to see things rather differently.

One point that hasn't been mentioned. You should dive with the minimum weight you can consistent with your load and the tempoerature of the water. On the average warm water dive that shouldn't be much, so the "tipping forward" tendency on the surface should be minimised. There are people around who declare that with a well set up wing system the effect doesn't exist, but this is nonsense. Simple mechanics shows that it will exist, but it can be reduced to maneagabe proportions. You do have to accept though that if you choose to dive a wing you are likely to be tipped forward on the surface. One reason I don't recommend them for inexperienced divers, nor indeed for inappropriate uses by experienced ones. Another is that commonly it can be more difficult to void air from a wing than from a jacket-style BC. It seems that your shop staff are of the other persuasion.

This aspect of wing diving probably explains why so many people lump a wing together with a backplate as if it's a single item of equipment (you may have seen the abbreviation BP/W). In fact you can use a wing without a backplate and that's my preferred way of using one, but if you do choose to use a backplate and make that backplate stainless steel you'll find your weight and balance problems considerably reduced as you will perforce have a lot of weight behind you. The issue of that weight being non-dumpable hasn't gone away, of course.

[ScubaTurtle]

peterbj7,

Thank you very much for that analysis. Your thoughts were somewhat inline with what I was thinking after all this discussion.

The type of BC that I have/chose in reality has different characteristics than that of the other BCs where the jacket gives the user the squeeze (pardon my lack of tech jargon). The non-winged BC will of course allow a more up right float at the surface vs. the wing BC (back inflation). I for one plan on spending most of my time under the water so in reality I somewhat wondered why the owner seemed to be obsessing over the surface balance issue. The real test in my opinion will be being able to float up right under water at depth. That's where I want to be balanced.

Hopefully the last post at least resolves his thinking and for now it's going to be experimentation (safely of course) for me to be able to balance things out. I am also of the opinion that I should dive with the least weight possible. That is my goal and until I get more dives under my belt I'm at a point where I have some numbers that I'm going to work with but will need some time to experiment before I can really determine what's needed.

If I get the chance I'm going to do some dives to specifically experiment with the minimum weight necessary for me. That will be the real test. Then I can work on balancing it out on the body and making sure someone else or I could dump at least a little weight in less than a few seconds to correct whatever situation occurs.

-ScubaTurtle

Edited by ScubaTurtle, 24 March 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[peterbj7]

I advise you not to take anyone else into your safety reckoning. Assume you'll be alone, and make yourself self-sufficient.

Let me elaborate on one point. In colder water you'll have more insulation, necessitating more weight to be able to get down. At depth you'll be considerably overweighted and will need air to compensate, but at the surface you should find the extra buoyancy helps with balance, as it will shift the axis of buoyancy forwards a little which will reduce the "tipping forwards" effect.