39 replies to this topic

[TekDiveGirl]

Doubles and backplate/bladder are on order...oh Merry Christmas to me...now to find the male dive sherpa to carry the darn things for me to the water! 

*jumps up and down and runs around and throws her keyboard under the bed before she types something that will get her in trouble*

[TekDiveGirl]

I think I said once before, this is the single course that taught me most about diving. I wish more people (recreational divers) would do it. I particularly hate it when I see PADI-and-the-like divers doing DM courses when what they should have done is this course.

While I agree that the class is a good one - I don't necessarily agree that a recreational diver has any need to take the class. Nor does a diver who wants to go on to be a DM need to take the class. This goes way outside the range of what the average diver wants or needs to do.

[peterbj7]

I think I said once before, this is the single course that taught me most about diving.  I wish more people (recreational divers) would do it.  I particularly hate it when I see PADI-and-the-like divers doing DM courses when what they should have done is this course.

While I agree that the class is a good one - I don't necessarily agree that a recreational diver has any need to take the class. Nor does a diver who wants to go on to be a DM need to take the class. This goes way outside the range of what the average diver wants or needs to do.

It does, but I see many DMs and Instructors who have no perception of diving beyond pure recreational. Many aren't even nitrox divers, let alone instructors. When you remember that these people are working in the dive industry and interacting with all sorts of divers, and being called upon to guide/help them, I strongly feel it is incumbent on them to ensure they are equipped to do so. Unless you want to restrict the divers you deal with and go underwater with to recreational divers carrying a single tank and (probably) breathing air. I employ instructors and DMs and I insist they all have some level of technical training, so they understand the issues (semi-)technical dive guests are facing. In particular, I insist that any DM working for me is nitrox certified, as otherwise how can they properly help a nitrox diver in difficulties? And as part of DM or Instructor courses we teach we include as a minimum an appropriate level of nitrox education, with considerable pressure to do something like IANTD Adv EANx in parallel.

Anyone else feel equipped to guide divers when they're not even as well trained?

[TraceMalin]

I employ instructors and DMs and I insist they all have some level of technical training, so they understand the issues (semi-)technical dive guests are facing...

Hey, Peter! Can I have a job?

Trace

[peterbj7]

Sure! How much do you want?

[TraceMalin]

Sure! How much do you want?

How about I say US $15.00/hour & you say US $8.00/hour and we settle on US $10.50/hour?

Trace

[Diverbrian]

I think I said once before, this is the single course that taught me most about diving.  I wish more people (recreational divers) would do it.  I particularly hate it when I see PADI-and-the-like divers doing DM courses when what they should have done is this course.

While I agree that the class is a good one - I don't necessarily agree that a recreational diver has any need to take the class. Nor does a diver who wants to go on to be a DM need to take the class. This goes way outside the range of what the average diver wants or needs to do.

It does, but I see many DMs and Instructors who have no perception of diving beyond pure recreational. Many aren't even nitrox divers, let alone instructors. When you remember that these people are working in the dive industry and interacting with all sorts of divers, and being called upon to guide/help them, I strongly feel it is incumbent on them to ensure they are equipped to do so. Unless you want to restrict the divers you deal with and go underwater with to recreational divers carrying a single tank and (probably) breathing air. I employ instructors and DMs and I insist they all have some level of technical training, so they understand the issues (semi-)technical dive guests are facing. In particular, I insist that any DM working for me is nitrox certified, as otherwise how can they properly help a nitrox diver in difficulties? And as part of DM or Instructor courses we teach we include as a minimum an appropriate level of nitrox education, with considerable pressure to do something like IANTD Adv EANx in parallel.

Anyone else feel equipped to guide divers when they're not even as well trained?

I personally agree with Peter on this as well. I took my Advanced Nitrox in conjunction with my DiveCon and it was a good idea. Up here, a DM should have some level of technical training as inevitably someone shows up with a BP/W, doubles, stage bottles, etc. It may not be required, but it helps. The problem is now that I prefer the doubles/stage bottles/ etc. and not be limited by NDL's. LOL.

Also the training adds that much more to the knowledge inventory of a DM as this course is far more intensive in technical theory than my DiveCon course, which mainly covered leading groups and assisting in classes along with rescue skills. Both were valuable courses. But for straight becoming a better diver I have to recommend the Advanced Nitrox course over the DiveCon/DM programs.

[TekDiveGirl]

It does, but I see many DMs and Instructors who have no perception of diving beyond pure recreational.  Many aren't even nitrox divers, let alone instructors.  When you remember that these people are working in the dive industry and interacting with all sorts of divers, and being called upon to guide/help them, I strongly feel it is incumbent on them to ensure they are equipped to do so.  Unless you want to restrict the divers you deal with and go underwater with to recreational divers carrying a single tank and (probably) breathing air.  I employ instructors and DMs and I insist they all have some level of technical training, so they understand the issues (semi-)technical dive guests are facing.  In particular, I insist that any DM working for me is nitrox certified, as otherwise how can they properly help a nitrox diver in difficulties?  And as part of DM or Instructor courses we teach we include as a minimum an appropriate level of nitrox education, with considerable pressure to do something like IANTD Adv EANx in parallel.

Anyone else feel equipped to guide divers when they're not even as well trained?

Well - a DM is generally going to deal with a diver who is diving air the same as he is a diver diving nitrox. And underwater a DM doesn't know the difference. He treats the situation - not the gas.

Overall of course basic nitrox is a good thing to know, and a DM should be educated so when students and others ask questions s/he can answer them and not look stupid, but in the scheme of things, last I checked - you are treating the air diver in distress the same as you are treating the nitrox diver in distress.

You are correct that there are a lot of DM's and Instructors that have no clue of life outside the recreational world. They are quite happy that way. (If they don't interact with tech divers at all - why do they need to ever take a technical class? I don't consider basic nitrox a tech class btw.) Many are happy in their recreational
gear and don't want to spend extra money on gear that they won't ever use.

A lot of DM's will never encounter a diver with doubles and stages. I have never seen a situation where a DM was "guiding" tech divers. Generally when there was a boat full of technical divers - the boat has a technical divermaster on board and not a recreational divermaster anyway so the point is moot.

More to the point, I think that the decision to take these classes has to be on a case by case basis. A DM in Club Med is likely to only encounter vacation single tank divers and the necessity of anything outside the basics is probably not necessary. A diver off the NJ coast where there are all kinds of tech divers on the boats and the conditions can be pretty harsh - he may think about taking some more advanced training. Although for all I know they may require their DM's to be tech certified.

You ask if the DM should feel equipped guiding divers if they are not as well trained as the people they are guiding. I can guarantee your DM will not be as trained as I am. Or as trained as some instructor. Does that mean it is unsafe? No, just means he has less training. A DM should have good solid basics - rescue - local knowledge. Anything else is gravy.

[TekDiveGirl]

I personally agree with Peter on this as well. I took my Advanced Nitrox in conjunction with my DiveCon and it was a good idea. Up here, a DM should have some level of technical training as inevitably someone shows up with a BP/W, doubles, stage bottles, etc. It may not be required, but it helps. The problem is now that I prefer the doubles/stage bottles/ etc. and not be limited by NDL's. LOL.

I think a DM can learn the basics about a technical setup - the rigging etc - without taking a complete technical class.

There is really nothing to it - you know that as well as I do.

I am not saying it is a bad idea for those who have the interest. I am just saying - for most people, it is overkill.

I am with you there on diving doubles and stages. It isn't just the time freedonms.. but - it just feels so much more balanced underwater.

Until just recently - I didn't even own a singles wing anymore. It is going to be tough diving single tanks again. Unfortunately I am going to have to for awhile. )-; Oh well - doctors orders.

[Diverbrian]

I think a DM can learn the basics about a technical setup - the rigging etc - without taking a complete technical class.

There is really nothing to it - you know that as well as I do.

I am not saying it is a bad idea for those who have the interest. I am just saying - for most people, it is overkill.

I am with you there on diving doubles and stages. It isn't just the time freedonms.. but - it just feels so much more balanced underwater.

Until just recently - I didn't even own a singles wing anymore. It is going to be tough diving single tanks again. Unfortunately I am going to have to for awhile. )-; Oh well - doctors orders.

Kimber,

I guess another doctor is in order .

Seriously, I hope that you get well soon.

Also, most of us that dive doubles and that type of thing really don't WANT a divemaster. My concern would be for a newbie divemaster that has never seen anything but recreational gear trying to get my butt back on the boat if I was unconscious. Would they even know where to start cutting off gear? Hopefully, my buddy would be there (and even my normal buddy who dives recreational gear is very familar with my rig and the release points), but one never knows.

If you want to get picky, DM's up here should also be up on drysuits because a great many of the rapid ascents up here seem to be air trapped in the drysuit boots. I have personally seen one were the diver's undies fluffed up against his vent and he had to flood the suit to slow his ascent (Brrrr!!!!) I haven't run into a dive pro on the Great Lakes that doesn't dive dry at least part of the time, but you never know.

Obviously Peter is in an area where he sees a lot of tech rigs. In that case, if I were running a dive op., I would use the same requirements for a DM. And I can't believe DM's in this day and age that aren't familar with Nitrox, but it happens!

[BradfordNC]

:anna: While in my doubles??  Dang, this I gotta try...  :anna:


BACK ON TOPIC:

peterbj7 you mention that you wish more recreational divers would take this and especially so before DM, why is that?  If it's something I should suggest to people interested in my DM course, then I will.  Pending I have taken the course myself, which should be soon - soon as my gear gets here and my schedule clears.  Maybe I'll do it when our dive shop staff is up in Canada wreck diving over MLK Day weekend!  That's going to be a fun one!

ok, best beavis and butthead impersonation.

huh huh, huh huh

she wants me to hump her doubles. huh huh.


i've been waiting for her to ask that.

lol

meeeeeeow.


lol, ok, back on topic.

i'll agree with peter. i know i don't really have any intention of getting DM certified. why? because i have no intention of diving being a profession. i can dive all i want without the liability being a certified DM can bring with it.
however. the skills learned in advanced nitrox or any other advanced course will only help the recreational/hobby diver. as many from this board who have splashed with me will tell ya, i'm a wreck-a-holic. but i took up cave diving. why? because the skills have only helped me out on the wrecks. so many people focus on getting their DM cert when they should focus on their diving.

last summer i was in Key Largo, going out to dive the duane. a girl on the boat was doing some dives to get her DM cert. i was like, "cool." but then, in the water, you would have thought she just started diving yesterday. i can't remember how many dives she had, but it wasn't many, and it was all resort diving.

bottom line, she is a DM.
i'm not.

ok, enough ranting, i'm bored, and going to bed. been to busy lately.

oh yeah, and once more for Dive Girl. meow :anna:

[maninthesea]

Jim,

My layover is to short for a dive but a beer will work. Between Palau and Truk we spend over 12 hours in Guam. Have been trying to find a day room but haven't had any luck. I get in around 5:30am and leave for Truk after 6pm.

- Chuck

The Airport Mianna is the hotel for you. Not many stars but it is close to the airport(clue in the name) and they offer some kind of 1/2 day rate of around $40
Phone (671) 646-6891. The best thing to do is rent a POS car for $25 from cars unlimited and drive around the island. Taxi's RAPE you here.

Give me an e-mail at maninthesea@hotmail.com prior to coming. Given the times it may be a beer for you but thats in my normal work day so maybe lunch.
When you get here(actually 2 hours after you get here) give me a call on 687-2356

Cheers
Jim

[TraceMalin]

One of the problems with the diving industry is that divers have allowed the agencies standards to take the place of common sense. It is unbelievable that you can become an instructor with as little as 40 dives.

I've turned two guys that I taught this summer as AOW, nitrox, deep, night and wreck diving students into what I consider to be entry level advanced/specialty divers in about 40 dives. They thought their training was never going to end, but now they are masters of trim, buoyancy, skill drills, DSMB deployment, light use and failures. A Naval aviator who was AOW certified came along on their first night dive which was more like a Cave 1 course and exclaimed, "That was insane! I've never seen anything like that! I'm glad you weren't my instructor!" My guys learned to love it and loved me for challenging them. In fact, when they were performing poorly during advanced navigation, I stopped messing with them and they were unhappy that I wouldn't do OOG/OOA drills and lost masks because I just wanted them to learn to navigate. They said they'd promise to concentrate on navigational skills if I promised to "shark attack" them. I had to argue to make my point that good navigation was as important as a good no mask air share. These guys wanted to go on to do wreck dives off New Jersey and take GUE courses so throughout the training I had their goals in mind to start prepping them for realistic dangers of Atlantic wreck diving and for a DIR-F class. These guys have better skills than most DMs, instructors and course directors, but they have entry level experience and are not qualified to be dive leaders yet, nor professional water rescuers and one is a doctor.

Even when you teach a person to dive and he or she does exceptionally well in class, you can't be sure that he/she has common sense. Nearby, there is a dive site that is 114 feet deep in the Delaware River. I had a student call me the second day after his open water class to thank me for what he considered the exceptional training that saved his life. I asked what he meant. He went on to tell me that he had experienced a light failure at 114 feet in the river at night while solo diving, but didn't panic because of the thorough open water class I had given him begining with a summer of teaching him extended range freediving before going to scuba. I paused for a bit, then I said, "Your training sucked." He was shocked. "What do you mean?" he exclaimed, and began to tell me how he had coped with everything. I interupted and said, "Apparently, I failed you as an instructor because somewhere between 'this is a regulator' and 'sign here so I can send this in for your c-card' I forgot to tell you that you should not be diving alone... at night... with only one light... to 114 feet... to a site you've never been to... at all... and especially not... ONE DAY AFTER YOUR FINAL OPEN WATER DIVE!!!"

This lack of common sense is a pandemic in our society today. We've learned to be pretty good sea lawyers, but not very good divers. Now, thanks to this same sea lawyering, we've got so many specialties, advanced and technical courses to "have the certification" and instructors pushing students to go to the next level that we have divers with patches all over their jackets, decals all over their cars, and decks of c-cards stuffing their wallets, but very little experience. They think they are certified, qualified and experienced, but in reality they are not. And, unfortunately, many of these are DMs and instructors -- even course directors.

Diving is the invisible sport. We all know Dallas was pounded by Philadelphia on monday night thanks to ABC. Those who watched know who Madden's players of the game in the horse trailer are and we saw their skill on the field. They can all wear the same uniform and stand out from among their peers in front of millions without a piece of plastic to say they are somebodies, but for divers it has become about the C-card. Divers used to gain status over years by reputation after diving with enough people who would hold them in high regard, dive with them, and ask them to join status dives. Some of this still holds true, but moreover, it is far more common for divers to show off by allowing a 10 or 20+ c-cards to fall on the dive shop counter.

I've always used boredom as the determining factor that tells me whether I'm ready for the next level or not. If I change a major piece of equipment or add something I'm not used to carrying, I do lots of diving in local lakes and quarries with it before hitting the ocean. Once I train up to a certain level, I master it as much as I think I can without stagnation before advancing. For example, after Intro to Cave my cave instructor told me I was ready for full cave and I said, "No, I'm cool. I have a lot to learn at this level and practice before I'm ready to continue." I had the skills thanks to my DIR-F and tech 1 classes, but there was a lot of line work I wanted to do before progressing.

Divers need to decide for themselves when they are ready to move on and what leadership roles they should fulfill and not let instructors push them into exceeding their comfort zones or experience zones. It's not just dive training that makes a diver. It's a diver's whole life. I'd take a lifeguard/EMT recreational DM any day over a trimix instructor as crew. So, you also need to evaluate a team member by who that person is and not just by the c-cards he or she has. You are resonsible for yourself. You need to decide when to seek training, when to expand your diving range, when to be a dive leader and what other experiences a pro should have, i.e., EMT, lifeguard training, education/teacher certification, boat captain, various seamanship courses - able seaman, cave survey, etc. The government is letting dive agencies police themselves and as divers we need to police ourselves to assure that we are assets and not liabilities to our fellow divers and to the sport we love.

Trace

[Diverbrian]

I've turned two guys that I taught this summer as AOW, nitrox, deep, night and wreck diving students into what I consider to be entry level advanced/specialty divers in about 40 dives. They thought their training was never going to end, but now they are masters of trim, buoyancy, skill drills, DSMB deployment, light use and failures. A Naval aviator who was AOW certified came along on their first night dive which was more like a Cave 1 course and exclaimed, "That was insane! I've never seen anything like that! I'm glad you weren't my instructor!" My guys learned to love it and loved me for challenging them. In fact, when they were performing poorly during advanced navigation, I stopped messing with them and they were unhappy that I wouldn't do OOG/OOA drills and lost masks because I just wanted them to learn to navigate. They said they'd promise to concentrate on navigational skills if I promised to "shark attack" them. I had to argue to make my point that good navigation was as important as a good no mask air share. These guys wanted to go on to do wreck dives off New Jersey and take GUE courses so throughout the training I had their goals in mind to start prepping them for realistic dangers of Atlantic wreck diving and for a DIR-F class. These guys have better skills than most DMs, instructors and course directors, but they have entry level experience and are not qualified to be dive leaders yet, nor professional water rescuers and one is a doctor.

Not that I don't feel that the rest of the post was worth mentioning, I just wanted to highlight this point for my use.

Advanced Nitrox and courses like it help to improve dive skill and knowledge much as the students mentioned here. They are for the diver that wishes to advance those things and are excellent for that.

A Divemaster course will NOT be as in depth on those things because it needs to cover other things (which Trace addresses later). To a dive professional (unless they are teaching tech), familarity with the dive conditions, equipment, and "local specialties" is important, but famililarity is just that. More important yet would be how to help students and teach them to dive. Group leadership is important and the actual size of an Advanced Nitrox group will be two or three. Not much need for group leadership skills there, so a tech course won't push them as much. Among most important in a divemaster course is the verification that the group leader be able to RESPOND TO EMERGENCIES. That comes from experience and for that I can't think of a great substitute.

So... I too would take the medically trained, recreational divemaster over that previously mentioned Tri-mix instructor with only the basic first aid skills.

Dive Safely,

Brian

[Walter]

It is unbelievable that you can become an instructor with as little as 40 dives.

What agency allows that? I think most (all?) require 100 dives, which is still way too few.