31 replies to this topic

[Cmdr. Clownfish]

It is not realistic in 2022 to try to build a website which must succeed with only free services.  Users today demand a streamlined service and it's too difficult to manage with that requirement.  That is a recipe for failure.  I am going to assume that expectation has been put to bed and look at what seems reasonable.  Feel free to chase down free options if you want to but I doubt you will find one you can live with.

 

There are a lot of patchwork options out there that could fill in different parts of the problem (for a cost) but the best option is to upgrade the current forums and work with them.  There would be no data loss or reason to migrate users that way.

 

I did a deep dive into the latest IPB version today.  They have significantly backed off on license requirements since I looked at it last time, which was about 2015.  The license now appears reasonable whereas before it was so tight you could hardly do anything other than install a live version.  I think it would cost $750 upfront to get everything except for downloads with an optional $135 renewal twice a year.  The renewal is optional and the best I can tell you get out of it is the IPS Spam Defender service which may be worth it.  That is quoting both a CMS and BLOG which you may be able to live without.  A healthy blog could do wonders for traffic though and could be worth it if it's not ignored.  A CMS obvious would give a landing area similar to Joomla but integrated into IPB.  Both are ideal.

 

https://invisioncomm...uy/self-hosted/

 

They have stepped up their game and now document things on their website.  In the past they held it thight so you had to upgrade and then they didn’t really help when you asked.  I think enough people left that they had to realize that they were not actually king of the world and had to change.   They have docs now on how to make an IPB application so in theory someone could replicate everything we do in Joomla all in IPB.  Everything would be under one roof but someone still has to build the house.  It might be fairly easy to migrate current trip data over as well and may not be a huge job for the right person to make this application since its already been made once and only has to be ported.  This would result in forms, payments, forums, and trips all in the forum's admin.  This is the ideal solution.

 

The new version also allows you to offload attachments to a different server (Amazon S3 compatible, CDN, or sftp) so you can reduce the server requirements.  Attachments are the biggest space requirement by far on the current server and that could lead to efficiencies in both cost and data retention.

 

I am not sure Pam, Butch, or I have time to implement this though.  I actually think it might be interesting to do but I can’t turn down work anymore so I don’t know how realistic that is.  

[Cmdr. Clownfish]

The path forward to upgrade to IPB 4.x would be to upgrade the current IPB 3.4.9 subscription manager to IP.Nexus 1.5.9 and then upgrade the forums to 4.x.  My understanding is that the IP.Nexus license will be converted to a Commerce license when upgrading to IPB 4.x.  See this post...

 

https://invisioncomm...comment-2666886

 

The gallery app did not change names/architecture so it should upgrade fine.

 

If you wanted to follow this path then I think the process would be to upgrade the forums/commerce first.  That should be $400 up front and $85 every six months.  This is for the duration of the development of the My Trips IPS app and Forte plugin that would provide current Joomla functionality.  Once that app is working then consider upgrading the other apps right before it goes live and absorb that cost then.

 

The new license allows as many localhost installs for offline development on local computers as you want for free, like it used to be.  When 4.x first came out and they switched license models you had only one dev license and they had to authorize it.  It did not matter if that was on localhost or on a live host, you only had one.  This is basically unworkable for any kind of real testing or development.  That is what drove me off of IPB years ago but they came to their senses and seem more reasonable in 2022.

 

So the way I see the upgrade going is:

On localhost

1) Create a fresh install of IPB 4.x with Commerce

2) Create the My Trips IPS app

3) Add Forte to Commerce with a custom plugin.  Commerce has a Stripe plugin now and the APIs are similar so you could use that one as an example and just change it.  This would be much better than the current hokey way its done now.

4) When this all works move the plugin and App to the dev server for testing with real data.  You should be able to just install it in the admin just like any other plugin or App.

 

On Opalstack (done in parallel)

1) Make a copy of the current site under a subdomain on OpalStack and put it behind .htaccess password protection (required by IPB license).  

2) Use a backup database with the member subscription data culled so they don't renew in Dev (I didn't do this last time and it was a mess).

3) Add some fake subscriptions for testing 

4) Upgrade to IP.Nexus and convert the test subscriptions to IP.Nexus to confirm that will work.

5) Upgrade this test database to IPB 4.X

 

Now you have a live Dev install on OpalStack to learn on and test out the new My Trips and other Apps with real data.  I do not know what will happen to galleries if there is no license but this is just a test install so it doesn't matter.  I think they will upgrade when the new galleries are installed.

 

GO LIVE

1) Dump the tables with the App settings from Dev in them  

2) Take the live forums offline and create a staging install of it (or back it up and use it as staging)

3) Upgrade to IP.nexus and then to IPB 4.x

4) Upgrade the other Apps

5) Add the settings tables back in.  

6) Test and debug it.  

7) Then point the live domain to it on Opalstack and make it accessible again. Then it is live.    

 

That is all there is to it.  Now who wants to do it???

[WreckWench]

Please do not let my lack of participation mean anything other than I am buried trying to help my mom after she fell and broke her hip. We have finally gotten her out of rehab and now trying to transition to her being home. It is very rocky and not going that smoothly. I am buried trying to help her and do everything that lots of people were doing for her in the hospital and rehab.

 

Thank you all for the help you are giving. I truly appreciate it. Kamala

[Cajun Diver]

I've been under the weather so just now reading the latest posts.

 

It looks like a good plan so I'll take an deeper look at the IP Board / Invision stuff to see what I think and see if it's something I could handle.

[Cmdr. Clownfish]

Please do not let my lack of participation mean anything other than I am buried trying to help my mom after she fell and broke her hip. We have finally gotten her out of rehab and now trying to transition to her being home. It is very rocky and not going that smoothly. I am buried trying to help her and do everything that lots of people were doing for her in the hospital and rehab.

 

Thank you all for the help you are giving. I truly appreciate it. Kamala

Understood, I have been there also with my dad.

[Cmdr. Clownfish]

I've been under the weather so just now reading the latest posts.

 

It looks like a good plan so I'll take an deeper look at the IP Board / Invision stuff to see what I think and see if it's something I could handle.

I have no doubt either you or Pam could do it but the learning curve would be a lot steeper than anything you tow have done on the site yet.

[Cmdr. Clownfish]

As for the Payment Gateway question.  Stripe charges $5 per check and 0.8%+$0.30 for each other ACH payment.  Forte charges nothing for checks, not sure why.  So if checks are indeed required then Forte is the only way to go I know of.  The only integration I can find for Forte is WooCommerce on Wordpress and they probably don't allow checks.

[Blue151]

The plan looks good from my limited perspective.  Unfortunately, as you note above I do not have time to contribute.  My schedule is completely packed for the foreseeable future.

 

I still want to see it succeed, so maybe I could help with some testing as things progress depending on the timing. 

[Blue151]

 

Please do not let my lack of participation mean anything other than I am buried trying to help my mom after she fell and broke her hip. We have finally gotten her out of rehab and now trying to transition to her being home. It is very rocky and not going that smoothly. I am buried trying to help her and do everything that lots of people were doing for her in the hospital and rehab.

 

Thank you all for the help you are giving. I truly appreciate it. Kamala

Understood, I have been there also with my dad.

 

me too.   I wish you the best as you go through it.   Sending hugs. 

[WreckWench]

Our monthly fees with Forte are super reasonable. And most of our payments are checks due to the 3% savings. Many people want to do away with checks but for us they are a godsend.  If most of our payments had been via credit card then we would have been killed and put out of business by chargebacks during the first part of the pandemic. Many companies far bigger than me lost a ton of money and several went out of business.   We had some charge backs and all were credit cards and brand new people who had no relationship with us. Thank god most of our payments ARE checks.

[WreckWench]

 

 

Please do not let my lack of participation mean anything other than I am buried trying to help my mom after she fell and broke her hip. We have finally gotten her out of rehab and now trying to transition to her being home. It is very rocky and not going that smoothly. I am buried trying to help her and do everything that lots of people were doing for her in the hospital and rehab.

 

Thank you all for the help you are giving. I truly appreciate it. Kamala

Understood, I have been there also with my dad.

 

me too.   I wish you the best as you go through it.   Sending hugs. 

 

Thank you BOTH. We have had many clients who have family health matters put their travel on hold and I had no idea how invasive and pervasive the process is.

[Cmdr. Clownfish]

Our monthly fees with Forte are super reasonable. And most of our payments are checks due to the 3% savings. Many people want to do away with checks but for us they are a godsend.  If most of our payments had been via credit card then we would have been killed and put out of business by chargebacks during the first part of the pandemic. Many companies far bigger than me lost a ton of money and several went out of business.   We had some charge backs and all were credit cards and brand new people who had no relationship with us. Thank god most of our payments ARE checks.

OK Forte is the only real option then so that question is settled and doesn't require another look I guess.  The take away on this one is that the ONLY way you will be able to take payments if everything died today is the offline one time payment form that isn't connected to the database.  Forte has an integration for WooCommerce on Wordpress but I doubt it takes checks or ACH.  I haven't checked though.  I don't think there is another integration out there for Forte.  Something tells me that Big Commerce MAY have one but again probably no checks.

[WreckWench]

 

Our monthly fees with Forte are super reasonable. And most of our payments are checks due to the 3% savings. Many people want to do away with checks but for us they are a godsend.  If most of our payments had been via credit card then we would have been killed and put out of business by chargebacks during the first part of the pandemic. Many companies far bigger than me lost a ton of money and several went out of business.   We had some charge backs and all were credit cards and brand new people who had no relationship with us. Thank god most of our payments ARE checks.

OK Forte is the only real option then so that question is settled and doesn't require another look I guess.  The take away on this one is that the ONLY way you will be able to take payments if everything died today is the offline one time payment form that isn't connected to the database.  Forte has an integration for WooCommerce on Wordpress but I doubt it takes checks or ACH.  I haven't checked though.  I don't think there is another integration out there for Forte.  Something tells me that Big Commerce MAY have one but again probably no checks.

 

Sounds like the next step is to verify if we can find out if anyone does have integration with them. And maybe a check in with Forte to see what integration they have in the works would be beneficial.   Thank you all sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much for all your help. I am truly blessed and grateful.

[Cmdr. Clownfish]

 

 

Our monthly fees with Forte are super reasonable. And most of our payments are checks due to the 3% savings. Many people want to do away with checks but for us they are a godsend.  If most of our payments had been via credit card then we would have been killed and put out of business by chargebacks during the first part of the pandemic. Many companies far bigger than me lost a ton of money and several went out of business.   We had some charge backs and all were credit cards and brand new people who had no relationship with us. Thank god most of our payments ARE checks.

OK Forte is the only real option then so that question is settled and doesn't require another look I guess.  The take away on this one is that the ONLY way you will be able to take payments if everything died today is the offline one time payment form that isn't connected to the database.  Forte has an integration for WooCommerce on Wordpress but I doubt it takes checks or ACH.  I haven't checked though.  I don't think there is another integration out there for Forte.  Something tells me that Big Commerce MAY have one but again probably no checks.

 

Sounds like the next step is to verify if we can find out if anyone does have integration with them. And maybe a check in with Forte to see what integration they have in the works would be beneficial.   Thank you all sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much for all your help. I am truly blessed and grateful.

 

Only WooCommerce is on the Forte website list of integrations so I am guessing that is all they know about.  I have never seen a Forte integration anywhere.  Most of their clients are big companies that have developers which integrate internally.

[Cmdr. Clownfish]

Here is what I believe to be true

 

1) Forte is the only gateway with acceptable fees that I am aware of

2) Forte is not a DIY gateway and integrations are slim to none so you need a developer to use them on your website.  DIY is not their market, they typically work with big houses which is probably why their rates are better.

3) Nobody working day to day on the site today can do both their trip management responsibilities and learn how to build a new site or integrate Forte.  It’s too much.  You need a dedicated person that already knows how to do that.

 

So with those facts you are not left with many options in a disaster.  As I see it, you only have three real disaster recovery plans if php5.6 becomes unviable

1) Chase the rainbow again and move the site to a new shared host, then wait for php5.6 to die there

2) Set up a private server with php5.6 and take on server admin responsibilities. I strongly suggest using a Docker container in this case.

3) Abandon Joomla and upgrade the forums, go back to almost the way it was before Joomla

 

I honestly think options 2 or 3 are your only workable options so if you do this then you need to have some other processes ready since you won’t have time to build them under the gun to get things working again.  I strongly think this is what you should consider at this point before it is too late.  

 

We need a new forum to discuss option 2 but I don’t recommend it since there would be a good reason OpalStack abandoned PHP5.6.  It's also pretty complex and nearly as much work as rebuilding the site to do this.

 

For option 3:

1) Upgrade the current subscription system to IP.Nexus ASAP since it is required to port the current subscriptions to the latest IPB on the new PHP versions.  This does not involve upgrading the forums at this time only the subscriptions package.  This should not break Joomla or anything else but will save time at a later date when you don’t have time to figure it out.  Details of this probably are worthy of a seperate thread or forum for upgrading the forums. Note this will break paying for subscriptions on Forte, at least temporarily, but I don't see another option.

2) Find an online forms systems you are happy with. Google Forms, SurveyMonkey, Zoho Office, Jotforms, or something else.  I don’t know which... just find one that works within your requirements.

3) If PHP5.6 goes away there is a good chance the offline pay form that I made years ago will go with it since it is on PHP also.  Accept that you will have to send people directly to the Forte hosted webpay form to pay.  You will need a process for collecting money directly on Forte that works with accounting and can be explained. This task worthy of a thread of its own. 

 

This will leave you with a process to collect forms electronically and still sell trips but with no database payment integration.  Signup and money management will be harder but form management will be similar to today.  Luckily Brad is nearly doing all of the data collection required to this in the forums so kudos for that decision.  His job may not change much.

 

This is why I keep pressing this issue.  On a 4 square you at moderate/low immediate risk but with significant/catastrophic disruptions.  That puts you in a defensive posture, not a wait and see.  These new processes should not be hard to put together though.

 

I have not decided if I am willing to rebuild the site in the IPB system.  If I did it then I would do it modular and give SD a license for the extensions/apps. This way I could market them for profit.  Forms would be a form builder similar to Breezingforms.  You would have to build your specific forms so I would not be selling those.  I see this as a low risk for SD but I haven’t decided if it is worth it since I can’t turn paying work away anymore.