45 replies to this topic

[DryHeatDiver]

Hi Folks,


My questions is:

Is the PADI Dive Master Certification worth the time, money and effort if you are not going to be a working Dive Master?

I am not interested in being a Working Dive Master. Diving is my escape and R&R from my everyday Rat Race and other responsibilities I have. That is why I don't want to be a Working Dive Master.

I have been asked if I would take the PADI Dive Master Course and become a certified Dive Master by a friend.
I am on the fence on this and I am trying to get additional information.

I have not been very satisfied with the cost benefit factor of the PADI courses. In other words, I don't think you get your moneys worth.

My Rescue Class was great, but I felt lacking in criteria for the cost and my PADI equipment class was a joke.

I am planning on continuing to dive and would like to take more IANDT courses as I am very pleased with the one I have taken.

My Backgound:
I am a PADI Rescue Diver and IANDT EAN cert. and have been diving for just over 4 years now.
I have just over 100 dives with most of them off the North and South Channel Islands in CA and Some from San Carlos and Panama.
I started diving as a hobby and recreation. This was and still is my escape and R&R.

Thanks for all of your input and assistance.

Michael

[Genesis]

Short answer: No.

I'd go so far as to argue that for most people "Dive Master" is a worthless cert even if you want to be a professional. The reason for this is that you're tied to a given shop in many cases (or they will try to make it that way, at least!), you end up with professional liability (bad), and in most cases the pay is nil (or darn close to it.)

Now if the DM rating is a step towards OWSI, that's different. Its like taking Calc 2 in college - you need Calc 1 first, and as an instructor you have some "portability" with your skills, plus there is at least some income derived from what you're doing.

What are you hoping to accomplish in your diving that would make you consider the DM?

[jextract]

What DO you want to do with it? If you're not going to be a working divemaster and you don't want to continue on to instructor, why would you do it?

My impression of the divemaster program (recently having finished it) is that PADI is striking me more and more like the Church of Scientology. They won't tell you the real deal until you pay up, and it seems like there's always something additional to pay for. There should be ONE FEE, UPFRONT that covers all of your instruction and materials instead of the current bull@!&% nickel-and-diming that they do. They have even started charging for the PIC card, for cryin' out loud!

I'm sure we don't want to get Walter off on a rant here (I can feel his blood pressure already rising all the way across the country), but I'd say if you just want to dive for fun, then dive for fun. If you're happy with another agency's instruction, by all means stay with it. I have chosen PADI for one reason and one only - they are seemingly everywhere, and my ultimate long-term plan is to move to some tropical island and teach diving. To me, this is kind of like Beta vs. VHS or Mac vs. IBM (for those old enough to remember). Beta and Mac are vastly superior technologies but the sheer popularity of VHS and IBM was too overwhelming. Ruth's Chris cooks an amazing filet mignon, but McDonald's sells a hell of a lot more Big Macs.

I had to include this gem that Doug created. It is priceless.

Attached Images

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[DryHeatDiver]

I was wondering if the skills and lessions learned in my Dive Master course would assist me in future advance courses. I am not looking to be an instructor.

I am wanting to go on and do more "Advanced Recreational" diving such as Deep, Advanced EAN, Wreck, and maybe even Cave. I also want to take up some photography.
I don't want to call it technical diving, but it is more technical than just recreational diving.

Is there something in the Dive Master course that I won't learn in another course for what I want to do?

[DryHeatDiver]

Thanks Genesis and Jamie. Love the poster by the way Jamie.

[jextract]

Based on my experiece with PADI, I'd suggest going with a more "tech" agency. For the photo knowledge, there are boards that are specifically oriented toward that.

I can in no way take any credit for that poster, it was the work (as I remember) of Doug (Funewgy).

[Dive_Girl]

My impression of the divemaster program (recently having finished it) is that PADI is striking me more and more like the Church of Scientology.  They won't tell you the real deal until you pay up, and it seems like there's always something additional to pay for.  There should be ONE FEE, UPFRONT that covers all of your instruction and materials instead of the current bull@!&% nickel-and-diming that they do.  They have even started charging for the PIC card, for cryin' out loud!

OK, as many of you know I'm PADI Instructor. As for not getting an upfront fee or the real deal until you pay, is that really "PADI corporate's" doing or rather the service you have heard about or received from a particular shop/instructor?

I am very upfront with fees and do not piece-mail products or training, unless it would be to the benefit of the student (for example, they already have training materials that would have been otherwise included in the cost of class, so the class price is reduced). I also do other things like reduce specialty class prices when students have previous training dives from AOW that can apply and so on. I do my best to balance business profit, quality training, and what is realistic to and expected by the student.

PADI doesn't set my prices, or tell me to piece-mail, or tell me to hide fees, or give half stories. Don't confuse PADI corporate with the business practices of an individual dive shop or instructor.

As for the poster, I'm all for good fun, but it is clear to me this was not made by a a PADI diver. We don't teach Stress and Rescue and our Rescue course comes after AOW....so it looks like an SSI diver was dabbling with photoshop... :lam:

Edited by Dive_Girl, 25 January 2005 - 05:18 PM.

[peterbj7]

When we get enquiries from people wanting to become DM I always ask them just that question. If they say they just want to progress to the next level of diving and never want to teach I always point them towards IANTD Advanced Nitrox. That course isn't just about learning new tricks and skills but largely about becoming a better diver - more aware, more capable, less reliant. That course, or one like it, is what you should do next.

[Dive_Girl]

Is the PADI Dive Master Certification worth the time, money and effort if you are not going to be a working Dive Master?

I'd also say no. The Divemaster course isn't there to teach you to dive or to increase your overall diving skills. An instructor taking on a Divemaster Candidate hopefully takes that into consideration (at least I do). The DM course is more for teaching you to plan dives (not dive planning), lead dives, assist other dive professionals, assist student divers, and to teach some courses.

If you are not going to work as a DM, it would probably not be a good use of your money or time. In addition, once becoming a DM, you would look at carrying profesional liability insurance (renewable every year) and have an elevated responsibility level in some situations.

I think you are looking in the right places for continued training.

[JohnnyC]

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Been giving the DM class a look and trying to decide if I want to do this as well. Hope to hear more opinions on this topic. Anyway I had an instructor that I greatly respect tell me PADI actually stands for "Put Another Dollar In". Thats usually the way I look at it before starting something new. Do I have enough money to cover all the costs plus the few "extra" dollars it always takes to actually get done. But thats my ramblings for the day I have to go study for a fire test.

Absent minded ramblings

Johnny

[DryHeatDiver]

Dive Girl,
I agree with you. I also look at the shop and the instructor themselves in addition to what class I am going to take. I have been fortunate to have found a good shop and good instructors.

[BradfordNC]

PADI actually stands for "Put Another Dollar In".

once again, with the exception of some extremely minor and previously mentioned on other threads, this assumes that all other agencies provide instruction and certification for free.

[jextract]

PADI ain't the only one with a colorful acronym explanation. My ex-girlfriend (who used to half-own a big dive boat here in SoCal) used to say that NAUI stood for Not Another Underwater Idiot.

[taking deep breath]

Nicolle, I am willing to grant that you run things differently. I can only go by my experience. And that is, "oh you need to pay the tuition. And then you'll need the manual (translation: more $$). And then you'll need to buy the workbook (translation: more $$). And then you'll need to buy the encyclopedia (translation: more $$). And then you'll need to buy the wheel (translation: more $$). And then you'll need to buy the PIC card (translation: more $$). And then you'll need to buy ..." All of a sudden, what I thought was a $350 investment is now edging up substantially higher. Give me ONE damn price! Tell me it's gonna be $700 if that's the total cost. Upfront. Before I pay the tuition. And let me make my decision based on all the info. In evaluating my AI, I knew to ask "tell me everything I'm ever going to have to pay for and tell me now." I was told that even though they advertise it as a $399 course, I will also now have to buy the AI/Instructor Workbook (translation: more $$, cost still unknown), Instructor Open Water Slates (translation: more $$, cost still unknown), and the Instructor
Manual (translation: more $$, cost still unknown). And that's all they've told me. So the $399 really ISN'T $399, now is it? It is going to be substantially higher. Anyone else know of any cost that they haven't fessed up to? So what IS the total cost going to be?

I gotta go take a "tranq-ie"

[Genesis]

I was wondering if the skills and lessions learned in my Dive Master course would assist me in future advance courses. I am not looking to be an instructor.

I am wanting to go on and do more "Advanced Recreational" diving such as Deep, Advanced EAN, Wreck, and maybe even Cave. I also want to take up some photography.
I don't want to call it technical diving, but it is more technical than just recreational diving.

Is there something in the Dive Master course that I won't learn in another course for what I want to do?

I doubt you'll get what you want out of the DM class.

Be very, very careful with the "tech transition." I've put some of my feelings on it in other threads here already - the 'usual progression' is, IMHO, unwise and perhaps even dangerous. As an example the 'usual path' to Trimix takes you through "Extended Range", which is another word for deep air. There is absolutely no reason for that, other than making you buy another card, and that path exposes you to narcosis at the exact time you're learning new skills and are on your first truly deep dives (beyond 130.) I believe that's a recipe for an accident - and unnecessary. (IMHO there's no reason not to use 21/35 Trimix for dives like that - you'll actually have a clear head!) 21/35 dives has the same MOD as air does, for instance, but at 190 has an END (narcotic depth) of 112'. You'll keep your head, breathe easier (Helium is easier to breathe than Nitrogen), etc. The 21/35 actually gets you out of the water faster by about 10 minutes on a 20 minute dive to 190!

If you're thinking "maybe Cave" and want to take some kind of formal instruction next I'd do Cavern. You'll get a peek at overheads, you'll learn how to use a reel (important), and you'll get your trim together (very important) - if the class is any good at all. All these things are requirements if you're going to move "towards" technical diving. In addition your kit will get cleaned up of its danglies, you'll probably have to get rid of split fins if you have them, and you'll learn basic gas management rules that could save your butt some day if you start going inside wrecks - or any other overhead.

There are rumors that PADI's "Cavern" is not interchangeable with some other agencies in the cave arena, and PADI does not offer a cave cert - so you might want to choose either a NACD or NSS/CDS cavern class, as those are the two "mainstream" cave agencies and there's guaranteed interchange.

If you have your act together you could do Cavern/Intro as a 3-day course, but its quite possible to fail that one and get only a Cavern card out of it. You have to be honest about where you are - if you're not diving horizontally pretty much all the time, can't hover a foot off the bottom without touching it, have trouble with holding free ascents at a safe speed (no line for reference) and stops, and aren't comfortable being asked for various pieces of your gear (including your mask!) at pretty much any time during a dive, you're not dialed in enough to pass that class if your instructor is any good. Basically, if you can't do a cave dive without the card and survive without a lot of drama, the Cavern/Intro class may well be too much for you.

There's no particular reason to rush - work the skills and challenge yourself, but not to the level that you do something dangerous to your safety.

BTW, photography requires no special card but will do a LOT for your diving proficiency. It is basically impossible to take decent underwater pictures without pretty darn decent buoyancy control and trim - the best still pictures are macro shots most of the time, meaning you have to be able to get within inches of your subject without crashing into it!

[Dive_Girl]

I was told that even though they advertise it as a $399 course, I will also now have to buy the AI/Instructor Workbook (translation: more $$, cost still unknown), Instructor Open Water Slates (translation: more $$, cost still unknown), and the Instructor
Manual (translation: more $$, cost still unknown). And that's all they've told me....

I gotta go take a "tranq-ie"

If you want an idea of prices and you are looking at AI, that means you're a DM. As a DM you should have access to the PADI pricing list. Go look there for you prices. If you don't know how, PM me and I'll walk you through it. If the shop you are going through gives you a higher price than you can get as a DM, just order them through PADI directly.

I opt for the double shot of Nassau Royal myself....