45 replies to this topic

[StuShark]

In evaluating my AI, I knew to ask "tell me everything I'm ever going to have to pay for and tell me now." I was told that even though they advertise it as a $399 course, I will also now have to buy the AI/Instructor Workbook (translation: more $$, cost still unknown), Instructor Open Water Slates (translation: more $$, cost still unknown), and the Instructor
Manual (translation: more $$, cost still unknown). And that's all they've told me. So the $399 really ISN'T $399, now is it? It is going to be substantially higher. Anyone else know of any cost that they haven't fessed up to? So what IS the total cost going to be?

For the AI: a good site to give you some idea of what the books / slates / cue cards etc. would cost is on the rainbow reef site (http://www.keysidc.c...ppMaterials.php) [the site seems to have a good explanation of all the components - although only did my Nitrox through them, not any other courses]

...also the Application Fee (and maybe also the Examination Fee)...and what about any dives/tips you need to do ?

....so looks like your 399 is just for tuition


My DM course included all tuition and books (apart from instructor manual which we had the option of getting for $120), but then I had to pay for the trips (although at a reduced rate than the students)

Anyway, back to an earlier post (if I can work out how this quote thing works....)

"I have been asked if I would take the PADI Dive Master Course and become a certified Dive Master by a friend. "

..any particular reason your friend wants you (or them) to do it? Maybe they want to progress further and just want a friendly face on the course (so then you just need to weigh up the cost/benefit of it)

I was wondering if the skills and lessions learned in my Dive Master course would assist me in future advance courses. I am not looking to be an instructor.

Not really, although interesting to have to do all the skills you did soooooo long ago in your OW training...but do them to "deomonstration quality" and be able to show people how to do them if they are having trouble. Additionally you do learn some physics and physiology and it makes you take another look at your rescue skills etc. - are there other (possibly better) ways to do this and learn more - quite possibly ...but would you do them ?...e.g. studying for a physics exam made me learn how it all worked - i could have researched things on my own - but never got around to it.

also, (bearing in mind you do not want to become an instructor), do you find yourself on boats often with inexperienced or new divers (and sometimes have to pair up with them ?)..if so, this could help (if you like to help these of people)


...but anyway, from what it seems like your interests are, there are other courses (Cavern, Adv Nitroxx etc) that may be better for you to spend your $ on......for photography probably just as easy to get a camera and take loads of photos rather than a course (as long as itz digital just taken hundreds of them - and see what works and what doesn't)

[WileEDiver]

PADI ain't the only one with a colorful acronym explanation.  My ex-girlfriend (who used to half-own a big dive boat here in SoCal) used to say that NAUI stood for Not Another Underwater Idiot.

[taking deep breath]

Nicolle, I am willing to grant that you run things differently.  I can only go by my experience.  And that is, "oh you need to pay the tuition.  And then you'll need the manual (translation: more $$).  And then you'll need to buy the workbook (translation: more $$).  And then you'll need to buy the encyclopedia (translation: more $$).  And then you'll need to buy the wheel (translation: more $$).  And then you'll need to buy the PIC card (translation: more $$).  And then you'll need to buy ..."  All of a sudden, what I thought was a $350 investment is now edging up substantially higher.  Give me ONE damn price!  Tell me it's gonna be $700 if that's the total cost.  Upfront.  Before I pay the tuition.  And let me make my decision based on all the info.  In evaluating my AI, I knew to ask "tell me everything I'm ever going to have to pay for and tell me now."  I was told that even though they advertise it as a $399 course, I will also now have to buy the AI/Instructor Workbook (translation: more $$, cost still unknown), Instructor Open Water Slates (translation: more $$, cost still unknown), and the Instructor
Manual (translation: more $$, cost still unknown).  And that's all they've told me.  So the $399 really ISN'T $399, now is it?  It is going to be substantially higher.  Anyone else know of any cost that they haven't fessed up to?  So what IS the total cost going to be?

I gotta go take a "tranq-ie"

Jamie-

That's not the way we do it either. We hold a Divemaster Orientation session where, among other things, we discuss all of the required materials and make it clear how much those materials will cost (and what insurance will cost). We also discuss the reasons that the folks are there (some want to help with students in a leadership role, to some it's a step towards becoming an instructor, some guys see it as a way to impress chicks, and some just want the black card--we tend to discourage those). From the instructor's point of view, the investment in time and effort we make in the candidate far outweighs the fee paid to the instructor (in fact at our shop we offer the program with no up-front instructor fee--we allow the candidates to "work-off" their "tuition" once they become Divemasters [and can act as a certified assistants]).

And for the record, there's no PIC for DM, it's an application fee when the candidate has completed the program.

-Dan

[bluedolphin]

All of a sudden, what I thought was a $350 investment is now edging up substantially higher.  Give me ONE damn price!  Tell me it's gonna be $700 if that's the total cost.  Upfront.  Before I pay the tuition.  And let me make my decision based on all the info. 
I gotta go take a "tranq-ie"

Jamie,

Just out of idle curiosity, given we were both certified via the same shop, by the same instructor, but under different agency banners, did they change the way they did things? When I was certified there they pretty much gave me a “turn key� price which included the class, materials, all rental gear, and boat. Sure there were some incidentals along the way, (really minor stuff like weight belt clips) but overall they were very up front with the cost of the total package. Did that policy change when they switched agencies?

Linda

[ShamuLovesMe]

I am generally in the same boat as Jamie: I recently got my DM cert, and hope to eventually give up the cubicle and flourescent lights for good and become an instructor in some tropical locale. And I do agree, more or less, about the nickel-and-dimeing that PADI does. I know it's all about marketing -- advertising a course for only $___, which turns out to be only the tuition price, with many other expenses also required. Dive Agency A advertises a course fee of $700 (which is the total cost), while Dive Agency B gains an advantage by advertising the same course for $350 (but oh, by the way, you have to buy this and this and this and this and this, which bring your total cost to... $700). I do find that a little annoying (I just spent $350 on tuition, and you're going to charge me $2 for a PIC card? c'mon...). But that's marketing, it's certainly not exclusive to PADI or the dive industry. When's the last time you paid the sticker price when you bought a car? (Oh, by the way, that's another $$$ for AC, and $$$ for automatic, and $$$ for the premium stereo, and $$$$ tax & license, etc. etc.).

I knew that's how PADI does things long before I contemplated even taking the DM course, so I don't think too much about it. PADI is the Microsoft of the dive industry, as Jamie noted, and if I want to play all the latest video games, I'm going to buy a Windows PC, not a Mac. And since it's such a large and global organization, PADI does have a lot to offer the dive professional. Just the job board alone at padimembers.com is worth the annual membership fee.

Having said all that, maybe I'll finally stop rambling and get on topic! I would not recommend taking the DM course if you have no plans to become a dive professional. The curriculum, as Dive Girl noted, is primarily designed to prepare you for working with students. That's a lot of money that you could spend on something more in line with your goals (recreational diving). I wouldn't even spend money on any more courses, except for the ones where safety is an issue (Wreck, Cave, EAN, etc.). Equipment, Naturalist, Peak Performance Buoyancy... waste of money. (Oops, I'm a PADI Pro, did I just say that?) That kind of stuff you learn by doing, seeing, talking to other divers, etc.

[ShamuLovesMe]

That's not the way we do it either. We hold a Divemaster Orientation session where, among other things, we discuss all of the required materials and make it clear how much those materials will cost (and what insurance will cost). We also discuss the reasons that the folks are there (some want to help with students in a leadership role, to some it's a step towards becoming an instructor, some guys see it as a way to impress chicks, and some just want the black card--we tend to discourage those). From the instructor's point of view, the investment in time and effort we make in the candidate far outweighs the fee paid to the instructor (in fact at our shop we offer the program with no up-front instructor fee--we allow the candidates to "work-off" their "tuition" once they become Divemasters [and can act as a certified assistants]).

And for the record, there's no PIC for DM, it's an application fee when the candidate has completed the program.

Dan, I am impressed by the way you do things. That's the kind of operation I'd be proud to be a part of. I had a good instructor for my DM course, but he didn't communicate costs well at all, and like Jamie, I kept wondering when the money would stop leaking out of my wallet. I guess it just reflects the different styles of instructors and dive shops. PADI of course enforces the standard for the curriculum itself, but that still leaves a lot of room for variation between instructors/teaching styles, etc. I'm sure I'd have a different opinion had I gone through your course.

[WileEDiver]

<snip>And I do agree, more or less, about the nickel-and-dimeing that PADI does. I know it's all about marketing -- advertising a course for only $___, which turns out to be only the tuition price, with many other expenses also required. Dive Agency A advertises a course fee of $700 (which is the total cost), while Dive Agency B gains an advantage by advertising the same course for $350 (but oh, by the way, you have to buy this and this and this and this and this, which bring your total cost to... $700). </snip>

Let me start out by saying that Shamu's got nothing on me (especially after the nice things you said about me earlier). So please realize that I'm not looking to pick a fight with you--I just want to comment on some points you made.

Again, when you say the Agency advertises a course fee, are you really talking about the agency or the dive shop?

And even if it was the agency doing the advertising, when Junior goes off to college, don't you still have to make a trip to the bookstore and pay for books (and maybe lab materials) even after you paid the tuition? That's usually not included. You may not like it, but you'll find that everywhere not just with PADI nor just with diving.

And while we encourage building a diving library over time (knowledge development, reference, dive travel, and "fun" diving books), sometimes it isn't necessary for a DMC to shell out the bucks for everything all at once. If money is tight, maybe they can beg or borrow (let's hope not steal) some material from an instructor or other resource. If a shop came up with a flat fee, all inclusive, wouldn't the first thing they would see is someone who complains "but I've already got a copy of ..., can you deduct that from the price?"

And training materials do change over time (case in point, the new Rescue program), but that happens everywhere in education--try taking a continuing education course in a field somewhere with a 5 year old book. It can't be done--you have to pay to stay current in your field.

Maybe this whole issue is one of mindset. Maybe I'm more used to it because I own my own business (software, not diving). I can't rely on my employer sending me to training classes or make a trip to the supply cabinet when I want a pen or a pad of paper, I have to make a decision if that training is worth the time and money it costs me and I have to buy those supplies at the local Office Depot. When you become a DM you are in a very real sense in business for yourself (usually as an independent contractor). There are costs to being in business for yourself, and there are hard choices that you have to make. Unfortunately, as we all know, you don't become a DM or Instructor for the money (Do you know that In Hawaii they have a word for a scuba instructor without a girlfriend? That word is Homeless.). Mostly we're happy if the income offsets the expenses. Most of us do it because we want to share our love for diving with others.

My biggest complaint would be that for a number of people who have posted here, no one prepared them properly for what to expect. If nothing else, what I'm taking away from this thread is that in the future I'll strive to be even more upfront with people before they enter a dive master program of mine. It reminds me of a thread on another board where a (then) recent dive master was surprised to find that the shop he would be working out of expected him to wear gear that the shop sold.

Bottom line is, nobody likes surprises.

[Dive_Girl]

My biggest complaint would be that for a number of people who have posted here, no one prepared them properly for what to expect.  If nothing else, what I'm taking away from this thread is that in the future I'll strive to be even more upfront with people before they enter a dive master program of mine.  It reminds me of a thread on another board where a (then) recent dive master was surprised to find that the shop he would be working out of expected him to wear gear that the shop sold.

Bottom line is, nobody likes surprises.

me too!

[Walter]

IMHO, everyone (individuals and agencies) should take responsibility for their actions. I agree with Dive_Girl and WileEDiver, PADI doesn't sell to divers, they sell to PADI members, which includes PADI shops, PADI Instructors, AIs and DMs. If a course is offered without up front pricing, that is not PADI's doing. That is the responsibility of the shop or the instructor. There's no reason to blame PADI for something beyond their control.

Michael, I have to echo what others have told you, there's no reason to take a DM course unless you want to be a dive professional.

If you aren't happy with the quality of your courses, you need to be more careful when shopping for them. Everyone's equipment class is a joke. While I think PADI is wrong to even offer such a class, they are not alone in offering certifications that are useless. Other agencies (including my own) are guilty of the same practice. I wish they'd all stop, but that is not likely.

I have chosen PADI for one reason and one only - they are seemingly everywhere, and my ultimate long-term plan is to move to some tropical island and teach diving. To me, this is kind of like Beta vs. VHS or Mac vs. IBM (for those old enough to remember). Beta and Mac are vastly superior technologies but the sheer popularity of VHS and IBM was too overwhelming. Ruth's Chris cooks an amazing filet mignon, but McDonald's sells a hell of a lot more Big Macs.

If you feel this way, you should follow Robert Frost's advice. It's not like you won't can't teach an advanced or specialty course to someone with on OW card from another agency. The Beta/VHS analogy is flawed. Ruth's Chris can sell a filet mignon to a former customer of McDonalds.

PADI actually stands for "Put Another Dollar In".

once again, with the exception of some extremely minor and previously mentioned on other threads, this assumes that all other agencies provide instruction and certification for free.

Actually, the joke about PADI's name came about not because they charge, but because it was alleged you could buy a certification from them regardless of how well you did in class.

[WileEDiver]

Everyone's equipment class is a joke.

My take on this is that, once again, it's a matter of managing expectations.

When I inquired about an Equipment class (when I was just getting started), I was told, don't think for a second that what you learn in the class will in any way prepare you to service your own gear (or anyone else's for that matter), it will give you an inside view of some of the gear (regs, tanks, valves), and will better equip (no pun intended) you to better care (and handle) for your gear.

I was satisfied that I got my money's worth out of that class.

[Walter]

Dan,

I can teach an equipment class too, but I wouldn't be teaching anything I don't already teach in my OW class. If someone really wants to pay for that, they have gotten their money's worth. Value is always determined by how much someone is willing to pay. I, personally, would never consider paying for a class of this nature. Learning to actually rebuild equipment is another topic entirely. While such classes are available, I don't believe any of the SCUBA agencies offer them.

[Diverbrian]

Personally, I am with the tech transition crowd. I am not into travelling three or more states to take a course (like I would have to do to cavern course) at this time. IANTD Advanced Nitrox does not certify you for any deeper than a recreational agency's deep cert. The limit is 135 ft. It just adds some deco to mix and the redundant gear necessary to do it. The dives that I do deeper will be for my Normoxic Tri-Mix, which uses mixes like Genesis mentions. Some agencies limit you to nitrox to 100 ft. and anything deeper is helium, much as Genesis recommends as well.

If you live somewhere where a cavern course is available, it is an excellent idea. I would take one if I lived closer to cave country.

[TheSassyRabbit]

As usual, I'll differ from the norm and offer a slightly different perspective. I have my DM certification and do not work as a dive professional "as a living" (although I do assist with classes from time to time, and provide a LOT of refreshers to personal friends).

I did not go into the DM certification thinking I would be a significantly better diver at the outcome of the course. Rather I did it as a personal challenge (for personal reasons), and am glad I did it. Was the money I spent worth it? Well, first of all, I think that it's all relative. For the goals I had for myself, it was well worth it, and I would do it again. The shop I used counted many of the specialty certifications I had, or courses that I took in my AOW course, which did reduce the price. I enjoyed the course, the instructor , and really liked assisting the instructors with the classes. If nothing else, the assisting part actually made me stop and think about what it was like to be a new diver - the anxiety, the excitement, etc. and I think increased my patience level with my friends who have far fewer dives logged.

Where I do have a similar opinion to some who have posted before me is in saying that I don't think that the instructional organization is nearly as important as the individual attitude, competencies, and level of challenge provided by an individual instructor (as well as the reputation of the shop moreso than the instructional agency). And, finally, IMHO, the most important part of the equation is the individual diver.... learning is a journey, not a destination, and the DM cert - or any other certs - don't mean that there isn't room for improvement with every dive. There are some well certified folks that I wouldn't want any helpful hints from.... and some folks with nothing more than OW cert that I would beat a trail to be a buddy with.

[Brinybay]

Hi Folks,


My question is:

Is the PADI Dive Master Certification worth the time, money and effort if you are not going to be a working Dive Master?

In a word, no.

I am not interested in being a Working Dive Master.  Diving is my escape and R&R from my everyday Rat Race and other responsibilities I have. That is why I don't want to be a Working Dive Master.

You're on the right track then in questioning the DM course. Been there, done that. It was a lot of work, no fun, the shop didn't even throw me any bones for breaks on gear, free air but only for classes, BFD. A waste of time and money if you're not going to be a working DM or on your way to Instructor. If you want to be a better diver, do more diving. If you want to keep diving as a recreation, (as I do) don't become a DM. You will end up subsidizing the shop with free labor and open yourself up to some scary liability because now you're considered a "pro".

I have been asked if I would take the PADI Dive Master Course and become a certified Dive Master by a friend.  I am on the fence on this and I am trying to get additional information.

Just say no (thank you).

My Rescue Class was great, but I felt lacking in criteria for the cost and my PADI equipment class was a joke.

Rescue is the best class I had also. A LDS here that has several stores quit teaching the equipment class because they felt it opened them up to unneeded liability. It was a waste of time, I don't remember anything from it. If my gear needs service, I take it to a pro.

I started diving as a hobby and recreation. This was and still is my escape and R&R.

Keep it in that mode and you will not tire of it. Somebody has to teach, and more power to them, aber nicht ich. I've spent too much time, effort, and money on diving in order to have FUN. I have no desire to turn it into work. I admit I naively thought being a DM would be fun, but it's not, at least not for me.

Thanks for all of your input and assistance.

Michael

You're Welcome!

P.S. I'm not just speaking of the PADI DM course. This holds for any of them.

[fbp]

Is the PADI Dive Master Certification worth the time, money and effort if you are not going to be a working Dive Master?

I am not interested in being a Working Dive Master. Diving is my escape and R&R from my everyday Rat Race and other responsibilities I have. That is why I don't want to be a Working Dive Master.

Well, IMNSHO, let me just say "Yes" LOL...
for the following reasons...

Just to complete the cycle and get the benchmark.

If you're not going to use it, then just go ahead and get it and consider it just a bench mark for that cylce of training.

If you're REALLY interested in going the the Tech route then "NO" don't do it and start climbing the tech route that you find appealing.

The real focus as I see it, is to figure out where you want to go, what's your goal. Tech?? Just diving as an escape? what???

I say this as I pretty much did the same thing backin '86 or so... started with PADI and just went up through the ranks to DM. I had no intention of doing DM stuff, but wanted to learn what it was all about. It didn't really increase my skills (that I'm aware of - rescue class did that) but it gave me a final goal.... and wanted to impress the ladies... LOL... well, that part didn't work...

Do I remember anything from the class NO.
Could I go active now as a DM, NO.
Do I want go? NO..

It's just like a college degree.. you get it as a certificate on completion and it's just about as worthless... but I reccomend to everyone (who asks) who is going up the dive ladder to continue on to that level regardless of agency and go on from there, if inclined to do so.

I would just figure out what your goal is and then start planning the steps toward that.

If you aren't sure, then get the DM and "Knock it off" while you're the "Traning Mode" and then keep it a secret so you won't get buddied up with a newbie on dive boat trips as the boat DM shirks their responsibility on to a guest DM aka YOU.. heheh.. so just be aware of that.. eh....

You can alway take up the Tech classes and they will probably start you out at the bottom and that's a good thing... can't be over trained in it.. I'm constantly learning new things that I should have known before.. heheh.. .keeps it interesting.

re: Photo
I'd suggest taking a class, just so you get the basics. No point trying to re-invent the wheel and with cameras can be expensive eh?? Then the next phase is to take pictures until you burst...

Hope that helps..

[Walter]

As usual, I'll differ from the norm and offer a slightly different perspective. I have my DM certification and do not work as a dive professional "as a living" (although I do assist with classes from time to time, and provide a LOT of refreshers to personal friends).

I don't think you've really differed from most posters. I haven't seen anyone suggest it's only appropriate if you intend to "work as a dive professional 'as a living.'" When you provide refreshers and assist with classes, you are acting as a dive professional. Those who have no such desire will likely find they didn't need to take the DM course to accomplish their goals.