45 replies to this topic

[TheSassyRabbit]

Walter, my interpretation - and after all, that's what these posts are about - is that a lot of the references to dive professional mean more than just the casual dive professional.

Thanks for the play on my username though.

[Diverbrian]

To be honest, I am happy that I did my DiveCon. It does help "open doors" when I am trying to work with some charter captains on booking trips up here. As well, I have done a lot of refresher work and (especially) drysuit work with people new to drysuits. Disadvantage: on dives with the shop, I tend to be placed with the newer divers as they know that I am a dive pro. This happens to our experienced cold water divers that forget to bring a buddy in any case unless they specifically ask our assigned DiveCon for an experienced buddy. The assigned DiveCon always gets the most inexperienced group though.

So that puts me somewhere between an active dive pro and someone who took the course much like fbp did.

But, I do not recommend the course for someone who knows that they do NOT want to be an active dive pro. It is a lot of time and money for limited reward.

[Walter]

Understood, darlin'. At least you know how I mean it when I refer to a dive professional.

I calls 'em likes I sees 'em. LOL! Damned thread was getting too serious, I needed a little fun thrown in.

[Genesis]

BTW I consider the actions ANY shop takes under an agency banner to be owned by that agency.

Why? Because the agency has the right to set contractual rules on conduct of those operating under their name, and to enforce those rules. If they fail to do so, that is their fault, and not solely that of the shop or instructor involved.

Commonly it is heard that "the instructor is what's important, not the agency."

What that really means is that the agencies are useless, for they have abdicated their right and responsibility to set and enforce standards of conduct, lest a shop (or instructor) be ejected from their association.

If an agency will not police its members, set objective and clear standards, and enforce them to a 100% complience level, then of what use are they? More to the point, if I run a dive boat why should I honor - or require - any card from any such agency? Either that credential means something or it does not.

There is no middle ground.

I had people who sold things under the name of my company when I ran my business. They either complied 100% with the rules that I put forth, or their distributorship was terminated with prejudice. No second chances, no BS. The rules were clear and consistent - you either followed them or you did not use the name of my firm.

Cheaper, better, faster - pick any two. We know which two have been chosen here, right?

[ShamuLovesMe]

Bottom line is, nobody likes surprises.

This one sentence nicely sums up the argument about PADI, agencies as a whole, LDSs, courses, "truth in advertising," etc. -- none of which was on topic, LOL.

[jextract]

All of a sudden, what I thought was a $350 investment is now edging up substantially higher.  Give me ONE damn price!  Tell me it's gonna be $700 if that's the total cost.  Upfront.  Before I pay the tuition.  And let me make my decision based on all the info. 
I gotta go take a "tranq-ie"

Jamie,

Just out of idle curiosity, given we were both certified via the same shop, by the same instructor, but under different agency banners, did they change the way they did things? When I was certified there they pretty much gave me a “turn key� price which included the class, materials, all rental gear, and boat. Sure there were some incidentals along the way, (really minor stuff like weight belt clips) but overall they were very up front with the cost of the total package. Did that policy change when they switched agencies?

Linda

I got my basic open water certificate about a decade ago or so, and only got that cert through Chris. I actually started my basic cert when the shop was still NAUI but was transitioning, so I have materials through both agencies (and sometimes still do my tables with both, just to make sure I can still do it). My memory of that time is that there was one price for the OW that included everything and that is still the case. All of my work since was through other instructors, and through PADI, and it seems like the problem really became pronounced with DM. I would love to walk into a dive shop, and I've been in many here in the L.A. area, and see prices for everything, from certifications to servicing, posted on the wall, much like the great site that Stu supplied (thanks, by the way). How great would that be?

Mike, in a way I'm glad that I'm not the only one who has gone through this infuriating process but I'm sorry that anyone else had to. I'm a straight-up kinda guy. Tell me the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Dan, given how you illustrate your pre-meetings I wish I would have taken my training at a shop like yours. Nicolle, my exact point is that I shouldn't have to be a DM to see the PADI pricing list - the shop should have a comprehensive list posted and easily visibly available. And Karl, I couldn't agree with you more on how you view agency responsibility.

[Walter]

Commonly it is heard that "the instructor is what's important, not the agency."

I've never understood that concept. While I agree an excellent instructor can overcome shortcomings of his agency, the very concept is an attempt to absolve agencies of their responsibilites to write good standards and train their instructors how to teach diving. I find that concept morally wrong.

I agree with you in principle, but you might be taking it a tad far by including a shop's individual marketing practices under the responsibility of the agency. OTOH, agencies who have shops as members (some only have individual members) may be assuming that responsibility, so I can certainly see your point. It's certainly food for thought.

[bluedolphin]

Linda
I got my basic open water certificate about a decade ago or so, and only got that cert through Chris.  I actually started my basic cert when the shop was still NAUI

My memory of that time is that there was one price for the OW that included everything and that is still the case. 

Jamie,

Chris certified me in May of 1994 so I guess it was around the same time as you give or take a year or so, and I recall the 1 price total as well. I has sort of thought you were certified after the switched to another agency and if that was the case if they changed their 1 price package. Guess not.... Like I said I was just curious.

I have actually never experienced the "oh yah but you need this..." situcation. Guess I am lucky. Then again I am the type that would ask for the total cost too, even if it was in bits and pieces...what can I say I buy stuff professionally.

L. (bet I messed up the format on this post too.....geez I always do that)

[DryHeatDiver]

Hi Folks,
I wanted to thank you all again for your information, opinions and answers to my question. Not only did I get a better understanding of the DM course and training, but the dive industry as a whole. I'm a better informed diver because of this and other threads.

I passed on the DM course. For what I want out of diving, I can better use my money and time resources for other training and trips.

Michael

[WileEDiver]

I passed on the DM course. For what I want out of diving, I can better use my money and time resources for other training and trips.

Michael,

Enjoy your diving!

Given much of what you said, I think you made a wise decision.


If you change your mind that option is always there for you.

[jpreston]

I guess I will have to be the one that disagree's with most everyone on this topic.

Why did I take the DM Course when 95% of all of my diving is technical, 250+ ft. wrecks, caves, extended decompression...

Simple, to see and experience stress related divers. Not that I want to see a OW student freaking out but in tech diving you must be able to recognize task loading on your team member and call the dive or assist in reducing the stress involved.

I know you get to learn this in Rescue class but to actually see it in a diver(s) and how it manifests is a different story. It takes integrity and dedication in a tech diver to handle these situations.

My dive team here in MN is known for their excellant skills, we've assisted or DM tech classes and our skills have been put to the test on several occassions.

I wouldn't want a new diver on our team without this knowledge and experience.

I'm not saying you need to DM 100+ students, but there is some insight gained by working with them for awhile.

EIther way, good luck with your tech training. I've found it very rewarding and exciting too say the least.

[Kriterian]

Everyone I know that has a Dive Master card, including my Nitrox instructor last night, hates it. They always want to hide it and NEVER take it on vacation with them. It's a sure way to get hooked up leading a group, or being paired with the worst of the group.

[Trimix2dive]

above comment. well you may be right. but if everyone on the dive trip is a DM, or Tech DM and above - you get no grief on where you want to go or how or what you want to dive.

sometimes there is a plus side.

[In2h2o]

Everyone I know that has a Dive Master card, including my Nitrox instructor last night, hates it. They always want to hide it and NEVER take it on vacation with them. It's a sure way to get hooked up leading a group, or being paired with the worst of the group.

I have found that to be true also. I dont show my instructor or DM card anymore on vacation, I have found that some places want you to "help out" by diving with the least experienced divers. Its one thing if the are my students or if I am helping out with friends, but when I go somewhere and am paying for the diving, I just want to relax and enjoy myself.

[intotheblue]

If you're thinking "maybe Cave" and want to take some kind of formal instruction next I'd do Cavern.  You'll get a peek at overheads, you'll learn how to use a reel (important), and you'll get your trim together (very important) - if the class is any good at all.  All these things are requirements if you're going to move "towards" technical diving.  In addition your kit will get cleaned up of its danglies, you'll probably have to get rid of split fins if you have them, and you'll learn basic gas management rules that could save your butt some day if you start going inside wrecks - or any other overhead.

There are rumors that PADI's "Cavern" is not interchangeable with some other agencies in the cave arena,      so you might want to choose either a NACD or NSS/CDS cavern class, as those are the two "mainstream" cave agencies and there's guaranteed interchange.

If you have your act together you could do Cavern/Intro as a 3-day course, but its quite possible to fail that one and get only a Cavern card out of it. 

Along these lines, and I haven't covered the entire thread...

A good way to improve your skill-set and become a "way better" diver is to take a good cavern course. Most people don't want to take cave diving, but Cavern is much more benign yet you will learn most of the skills cave divers use. I also recommend the NSS-CDS or NACD instruction for it's recognition, although I used to teach the PADI Cavern course... (but it was no easier than the courses I took from NACD/NSS-CDS... ) GUE is also well regarded, but the other agencies' standards are pretty much in line as far as I've seen. It's really up to the instructor to do a good job. Don't take it from someone that will "sell you a card" regardless of what agency he/she represents.

This cavern training will make you a better diver, whereas DM training will make you a people manager, although you should perfect your basic skills to demonstration quality in the process. Being a DM and assisting with classes or groups will present you with opportunities to learn what can't be taught in a classroom... when it comes to handling undesired situations.

Once you ID your real reasons for another course, you should have an easy time deciding. IF you intend to be a cave diver, I recommend the same things I recommend for other "tech" diving. Buko buko dives, lots of experience, technicians training on equipment, buko buko dives... lots of experience, rescue training and follow up, buko buko dives... you get the picture. You want to be able to handle major problems like they are not problems at all... not being prone to panic, etc. That's one thing working with students provided, because I saw and dealt with a lot more problems that I ever would have on my own.

I don't regret any of the training I have had. I have seen people take lots of courses for the wrong reasons or with the wrong expectations for what they would get out of them. Good "luck" on whatever you decide.

ITB...