107 replies to this topic

[fbp]

Diverbrian:

I have noticed a great deal of effort required to get the fins off my feet in my drysuit boots (SDM and most cold water divers would notice this happening as well. Some drysuit boots have a way of sticking to the fins.)

Yes, Exactly, I am having the same problem and in fact was discussing this last Sunday... I'm told, will be trying it out next dive - Saturday - that spraying with Silicone spray will help. I thought it was more of a "Suction" issue, but there are ribs in the fins so it's probably just rubber against rubber, so the silicone might just work..

LOL.. It's really a PIA, I end up doing an Irish Jig in the water trying to get the blasted things off...
Hi-Tide Dry Suit (rock boots), Scuba Pro Splits w/spring straps, will let you know eh??

[Diverbrian]

My initial fins were SP Twin-Jets. They are the fins that you describe, except I still have the stock straps on them. The material that SP uses seems to have some affinity for drysuit boots, LOL.

The divers at our shop recommend silicone spray for consistently "stubborn" fins as well. My DS is an Andy's DS-2, so I have the attached "ribbed" boots. No rock boots.

[Laurafrica]

Good grief! What a lot of theories. RIB is Rigid Inflatable Boat and can take quite a lot of energy to get into - and a good buddy to haul on the back of your wetsuit. I'll post some stuff on diving off Tanzania, Zanzibar, Pemba and Mafia - all good sites, though with variable viz.
Bye, Laura

[Genesis]

None of this applies on a RIB

For the fins, use paste car wax inside the fin pocket. It will have to be reapplied every few (half-dozen or so) dives, but works beautifully to stop the "stickies".

Or get larger fins (e.g. Scubapro XXL Jets)

On a hot drop you have to carry deco bottles, but on the way up I want a line (even if short!) off the transom to clip them to in anything but dead calm seas; ditto for cameras. Handing up things to the crew in rough conditions is asking to either lose something or get clocked by the boat. If we're anchored I don't go in with them either. The reason for the latter preference is that you can get "clocked" in the jaw with the first stage on entry with a deco bottle, no matter how well you hang on to things - you only have two hands! It gets even hairier if you're scootering too. I've seen guys backroll with a scooter in their lap and two deco bottles clipped on - no thanks - that's too many opportunities to end up cold-cocked for my taste, especially when you consider that the scooter weighs 70lbs all on its own!

On a hot drop you gotta do what you gotta do, but for anchored boat diving I drop the deco bottles and scooter over the side, then pick 'em up once in the water. On an anchored boat the bottles and scooter will be well clear astern and below; on a drift they will generally be slightly astern and below. Length of line required depends on the sea state; if you need more than 15-20 of line to make it safe its too rough to be diving (that'd be 6+' seas!)

On recovery I do the reverse; for a hot drop pickup it takes a decent crew only seconds to drop a short (e.g. 20' or so) line to which you can clip off bottles and/or scooter (scooter gets clipped off FIRST, because its typically neutral; bottles are negative, even if only a bit - so you don't want to clip the bottles first lest the entire mess get dragged away from you and under the boat)

While I'm coming up the ladder the crew can be getting ready to recover the bottles and/or scooter; by the time I sit down and get my harness off the rest of the stuff is on board.

That's what works for me on my boats and when I've been diving with others, but YMMV of course.

[ScubaDadMiami]

To keep deploying a line for each diver that surfaces, then to wait for the diver to remove and clip off equipment and then to haul it in would seem like a lot of work and a lot of time to me. Likewise, going in the water and then having to take all this time in to put on equipment would be pretty tough to do with a live drop in a racing current when the seas are rough. Not to mention that we drop four divers at once. Dropping four divers at a time, the only way to stay together in groups of two is for both divers to hit the water together and to descend immediately together. There is no time to wait for putting on equipment after hitting the water.

It's really not so hard to do. Fully kitted, laying the scooter on the platform standing up so that the diver is just holding a loop and not actually lifting the scooter, you just step back into the water and go. True, it is not my favorite time of day when I am standing on the platform with doubles and my deco bottles, waiting for the go order from the captain. However, the second I hit the water and get the little bit of gas in my suit vented, I am under and gone.

For those of you in other places, please appreciate that, here in Southeast Florida, the Gulf Stream produces some of the strongest regularly occuring currents. So, we have to hit the water and be under or we will miss the drop. There is no time to hang on a line and put on equipment. You may get away with other techniques in other places but that will likely not go here on a less than optimal day.

Lines are rarely deployed for pick ups. I have never been bucked off of a ladder even when fully equipped. I have never lost a fin while exiting on a boat ladder in 2,000+ dives no matter how high the seas or how rough it has gotten.

Saying that I will lose my fins because I will forget to close my hand if I get yanked from the ladder is like saying that I will throw a baseball bat when I swing at the ball because I might forget to remember to hold onto the bat while I am concentrating on hitting the ball. By holding the fin straps while holding the ladder rail, you won't lose the fins.

I am picturing trying to hold fins between my knees on a bucking boat ladder; it just sounds like it is too easy to lose a fin. Add to this then trying to put them on your wrists. And, should you need to put the fin back on in the unlikely even that you get pulled from the ladder, you will then have to transfer the strap from around your wrist back to your hand to put it back on when, using my technique, it is already there in the hand, ready to slip back on.

Walter, fins were designed for feet and not for fitting on your wrist. It is not time to get new fins if they don't fit onto your wrists easily. What counts is how they fit on your feet. However, next time I am looking for new fins, I will be sure to give them the wrist fit test and I will be sure to add that to my next class lesson plan for my students.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I end up doing an Irish Jig in the water trying to get the blasted things off...

I have heard that the silicone thing works pretty well though I have never tried it. I sometimes have one of my two fins that likes to stay on. I either pull my spring strap harder or stick a finger in the bottom of the foot pocket and give a push from inside while still holding the spring strap.

It may not always be graceful but it gets the job done.

[Diverbrian]

To keep deploying a line for each diver that surfaces, then to wait for the diver to remove and clip off equipment and then to haul it in would seem like a lot of work and a lot of time to me. Likewise, going in the water and then having to take all this time in to put on equipment would be pretty tough to do with a live drop in a racing current when the seas are rough. Not to mention that we drop four divers at once. Dropping four divers at a time, the only way to stay together in groups of two is for both divers to hit the water together and to descend immediately together. There is no time to wait for putting on equipment after hitting the water.

It's really not so hard to do. Fully kitted, laying the scooter on the platform standing up so that the diver is just holding a loop and not actually lifting the scooter, you just step back into the water and go. True, it is not my favorite time of day when I am standing on the platform with doubles and my deco bottles, waiting for the go order from the captain. However, the second I hit the water and get the little bit of gas in my suit vented, I am under and gone.

For those of you in other places, please appreciate that, here in Southeast Florida, the Gulf Stream produces some of the strongest regularly occuring currents. So, we have to hit the water and be under or we will miss the drop. There is no time to hang on a line and put on equipment. You may get away with other techniques in other places but that will likely not go here on a less than optimal day.

Lines are rarely deployed for pick ups. I have never been bucked off of a ladder even when fully equipped. I have never lost a fin while exiting on a boat ladder in 2,000+ dives no matter how high the seas or how rough it has gotten.

Saying that I will lose my fins because I will forget to close my hand if I get yanked from the ladder is like saying that I will throw a baseball bat when I swing at the ball because I might forget to remember to hold onto the bat while I am concentrating on hitting the ball. By holding the fin straps while holding the ladder rail, you won't lose the fins.

I am picturing trying to hold fins between my knees on a bucking boat ladder; it just sounds like it is too easy to lose a fin. Add to this then trying to put them on your wrists. And, should you need to put the fin back on in the unlikely even that you get pulled from the ladder, you will then have to transfer the strap from around your wrist back to your hand to put it back on when, using my technique, it is already there in the hand, ready to slip back on.

Walter, fins were designed for feet and not for fitting on your wrist. It is not time to get new fins if they don't fit onto your wrists easily. What counts is how they fit on your feet. However, next time I am looking for new fins, I will be sure to give them the wrist fit test and I will be sure to add that to my next class lesson plan for my students.

I keep forgetting about "hot drops". I have only had to do one once up here (Straits of Mackinac to hook a wreck for our group). It affects other things as well. Yes, like Genesis says, on that type of entry, I do what I have to do to get in or out. That includes, of course, all gear being on and ready to go. I am still a big fan of drop lines when they can be deployed.

I forget that you like to drift dive down there. For me, it is not my favorite activity. I sometimes have ear problems or if I don't, whoever I am buddying with does, LOL. The cure to that: slow, extremely controllable descents. Can't do that on a "hot drop" either.

As for the fins on the wrist, that seems to work for me, but I understand the other points now. The instructors at our shop teach the fins on the wrist from day one in the pool to get students thinking about rough water exits. They won't get a chance to practice rough water exits in OW class for real. We don't do any boat dives in the quarry or the same lake that we do our OW classes, LOL.

[Genesis]

Heh, if you can't then you can't. A hot drop into a raging current is one of those things where you just buck it up and go. They ain't for the person who can't clear their ears cleanly, that much is for sure.

But standing a scooter on the nosecone (I assume) and going in with the leash on you? I dunno about that..... too busy for me and too many things flying around. I guess I'd have to see that technique demonstrated I'm having trouble envisioning the technique here... Are you talknig about holding the carry strap on the forward part of the scooter? That'd work I guess - you're clipped in on the leash, you grab the strap, and as you step back you'd pull the scooter over and into the water. Seems rough on the shroud though, no?

Dropping into a screaming current is one of those "gotta improvise" deals.....

Edited by Genesis, 03 March 2005 - 08:43 AM.

[intotheblue]

a lot of good points so far folks. I wish I had time to write an "expository", but let's see if I can cover my points without missing key items... There will be a huge difference if the boat is moored/anchored vs. performing a live-boat pick-up. Gulf stream can be very strong off Ft. Lauderdale but if the pick up is during a drift, the boat usually will be similar in movement to the diver, making the pick-up less "rough". You Florida divers bear that out? Locally, diving a 100' boat moored in the Gulf of Mexico (GOM), the boat swings up tremendously in the waves. Even in 3 foot seas, a 100' boat may pitch up and down much more than the 3 feet, depending on frequency and an intermittent 4 or 5 footer. We have used a trail line attached to the bottom of the ladder for "stationary" pick ups. Diver waits on main trail line for previous diver to exit water. With flotation inflated, diver moves to ladder line (end) and quickly removes fins as stated in many posts above, placing on wrist. Then you watch and time the rise and fall of the ladder, which in our case is tied down and moves exactly as the boat does. As the ladder starts down into the water, the diver quickly pulls self along the line and gets on the ladder as high up the "rungs" as possible before the boat starts swinging up. You hold on like a rodeo "buckaroo" as the boat swings up then begin to climb the rest of the way out as the boat comes back down and your "load is less". Hopefully assistance from above will assist and you should keep your remaining gear in place until safe away from the rear of the boat (I wear till I am seated at least, unless I remove tank to the floor while standing) which not only saves you if you are pitched overboard, but prevents your inhalation of noxious fumes that may contribute to the onset of motions sickness. Final point, LISTEN CAREFULLY TO THE BOAT CREW and FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS. In most cases, they know what works best for their boat in conditions they are in.

Well.... gotta get back to what I was doing... so sorry if I missed something. I'm sure someone will let me know if I glossed over something or stated something incorrectly. On MY smaller boat, I just hang on the ladder and remove fins and climb up with them on my wrist as others have stated, all other gear still in place. Later...

ITB

[intotheblue]

Oh, and trying to hang on to a line to attach stages, scooters, cameras, etc... in the Gulf Stream along Florida's coast can be impossible, as is pulling yourself down a "down line". SOmetimes you have to go in with everything and do your best, and go in live or "hot". I believe I have some pics of entrys off the "SEEKER" on a Doria trip. Very interesting techniques by people that dive those conditions "repeatedly, year after year. And, that was hand over hand going down... But again, that is not typical of "recreational" diving.

"Blow bubbles" every chance you get...

ITB

[Genesis]

Its only impossible if the boat is anchored.

If its drifting, and so are you in a current, your speeds should be closely matched and its no trouble at all. You and the boat are moving at very close to the same rate and clipping off things to a line on recovery is trivial.

Now going in is another matter - on a hot drop into a current you have to go in negative and rock-and-roll immediately, especially on a wreck, or you're going to be doing a sand dive. In a stiff current there's no way to swim back against it if you overshoot. You CAN usually make headway with a scooter, but even then its a slow slog ("quality" scooters can pull you at approximately 2 knots in full technical gear - beyond that even they can't keep up)

Where clipping off on recovery becomes a problem is when the wind is a significant component of the drift. The boat moves much faster in that situation than you do, since it has windage and you do not.

Trying to climb a ladder with a 70lb scooter isn't happening. There is no way to carry one from the harness that works out of the water - you pretty much have to grab onto it from the shroud and carry strap, and unfortunately God only gave you two hands and you need those for the ladder. So for that you're either handing it up or you're clipping it off, and either way the crew has to reach to the waterline to get it, because you can't lift a 70lb thing out of the water FROM the water either. IMHO clipping it off is no more trouble than handing it up and it allows the boat crew to get it at the best time for them - if there is a transom-width platform with a ladder somewhere on it, you can board while they recover the scooter - if its a smaller platform then it has to be done one at a time anyway.

[Laurafrica]

Of course, one way to get out of the water is to ask your favourite buddy to give you a good push from behind - makes it fun anyway. Yes, I AM only joking before I get lots of replies pointing out the dangers of a tank on the head!
Laura

[Walter]

From behind or on the behind?

[intotheblue]

Its only impossible if the boat is anchored.

Yep... I meant when the boat is moored or anchored, which would be typical of pulling yourself down a line, although I have gone in "Hot" from a drifting boat to catch a down line tied in on the wreck... and pulling down the line is very tough. We had great success going in hot and heavy and drifting/descending into the wrecks, possible when you have a good read on the wreck's location and the current is cooperating. I think we have gotten beyond the scope of the original question, but I hope it gives some insight into handling varying conditions that everyone can appreciate.

ITB

[ScubaDadMiami]

. . . standing a scooter on the nosecone (I assume) and going in with the leash on you . . . .

The tail end is down on the deck. The nose is up. You take a band and put it around a third of the way back from the nose, around the body of the scooter and with low profile loop handle. You just hold the handle, facing forward on the boat, while standing on the platform, leash on. When you step back into the water, you pull the scooter in with you, let go of the the handle and grab the handles at the stern of the scooter. Away you go!