112 replies to this topic

[GentDiver]

Enough!!!!

Everybody needs to take a chill pill here. Your ALL acting like a bunch of children (and if you were my kids I would be embarrassed)! Trust me we ALL know that some of you have issues. Continuing to make them public is doing nothing constructive that I can see. All it is doing is making things much more inflamed.

Please everyone. Take a deep breath.

Scott

:lam:

[drdiver]

Thank you, Scott,

Please everyone. Take a deep breath.

And look around, think about fish, and exhale....

[Neptuner]

You know folks, I'm completely content to sit here squarely on top of the fence and watch anxiously as this little scenario plays out to fruition, but I really think the dramatics are getting out of control at this point. Without pointing a finger at anyone or unintentionally ruffling any feathers, I'm going to suggest that we all step back and take a broader look at this whole thing.

While I have no doubts that there are legitimate issues with the business practices of the company at this time, I'm also fairly confident that airing all of their "dirty laundry" is not necessarily the most productive path for change.

If individual people have specific monetary or adminstrative issues with SD, then take it to the top, don't air it here as some means of putting pressure on SD as a whole. This is not the forum for specific complaints about who owes what on what invoice, this is a forum for suggesting changes in policies as continuing patrons of this business. Frankly, I'm shocked that the administrators are allowing such banter to go on, as it is truly detrimental to all of us. Essentially this practice would be like taking out a full page advertisement in the New York Times and the whole page simply stating how much the New York Times stinks! I don't care how much money you paid them, they are still a business at heart and they WOULD NOT run the ad, plain and simple. Yet here we sit, having paid our measly $25 membership and expect to be able to completely destroy the very business that is affording us this forum for discussion in the first place.

I agree wholeheartedly that change is in order and that people have very valid complaints, but that doesn't mean I want to see this business go under and I would hope that no one else would either. If there are members who are interested in knowing the specifics of every little issue, they can certainly PM the individuals who are willing to share those details and then form their own opinions of what should and should not be addressed. Again, I understand that frustration levels are high, but if you had a problem with your phone bill you wouldn't teleconference every one of their customers in on your complaint call... nor would they allow you to. I think we're taking a little more liberty with our rights here than what we should be afforded. Remember folks, this is still a business and it's not OUR business.

Now, as customers of this business, we can certainly feel free to hold whatever level of expectations that we desire. If the business does not meet our expectations, then we are also free to walk away and take our money elsewhere. That decision is for each of us to make, but in my opinion it is not the responsibility of this business to allow us the opportunity to defame their character on the way out the door. If for no other reason than maintaining the solvency of the organization and protecting the vested interest that many other people have on future trips, this is not an acceptable practice, period.

If you don't like what you see or you don't hold hope that the future will bring change, then by all means exercise your right to leave. Take up any unresolved issues with SD management and follow whatever course of action you deem necessary to expedite the resolution of these issues, but please, I beg of you, don't try to sink the ship before you go. This request is not personal in nature, nor am I a bonified member of the "SDLoveTrain" as someone so eloquently put it, this is basic business practice. If there are those among us who have never made a mistake, I commend you, but I doubt seriously this is the case. If you really wanted to effect change in your local grocery store I doubt seriously that you would run up and down the aisles telling everyone that you purchased rotten milk there, right?

For my own part, I was not on the Florida trip, so I cannot speak to any specific events, but I'm not real sure this is about that anyway. This seems to be more about policies and procedures, which I agree need to be altered. It is my hope that these concerns are addressed in a timely manner that will satisfy all of the members here and that this discussion will have served as a beneficial catalyst for much needed change. I fear, however, that the continued barrage of bickering will only serve to destroy this community which so many have given so much of their time to create. I respect and admire everyone's presence on this board, whether I agree with your point of views or not. I hope that respect is reciprocated and my comments are not taken personally, as they are not intended that way. It saddens me deeply to see some of our greatest minds pondering the thought of leaving and I hope for the sake of others here and the connections they have built, they reconsider staying. In the end, whether your contributions are agreed with or not... whether they become common practice or not... they are valuable to many.

These are merely my opinions, but they are spoken with the deepest sincerity. I understand that sincerity is no guarantee of the truth, but I think everyone would agree that you do "capture more flies with sugar than with vinegar"... after all, it became a modern day proverb, so it MUST be true!

I really hope to be blowin' bubbles with all of you someday soon... whether it is on a newfangled SD.com trip or just some buddies gettin' together for a weekend dive. May your journey through life be safe and adventurous!

[cmt489]

Neptuner,

I could not have said it any better myself!

Michelle

[Marvel]

Ladies & gentlemen! Seems like tempers are really fraying here. Everyone needs to take a step back & a deep breath. Then, you may all want to take a look at how you are posting to make sure that you are not in any way, shape or fashion posting statements that can be construed as personal attacks against ANYONE. We welcome the feedback, we want the feedback- ALL of it. Everyone on this board is free to contribute to this discussion, whether they were on the Florida trip or not. I will simply ask that all the participants treat everyone else with the respect that they would want to be treated with. At this point, we are going to review the posts & there may be some editing done. Any editing that is done will only be for the purpose of removing personal attacks & flames. Keep it civil. After all, there's a darn good chance that we will all be dive buddies sometime in the future.

[drdiver]

Marvelous Marvel!

[Genesis]

Here's reality to all those who are screaming "don't sink my ship here!"

You can't shut people up, especially people who are pissed off.

Its vastly better to air this "dirty laundry" HERE, rather than somewhere else. And there are a lot of "somewhere else's" available, from blogs to other forums. In the diving world I'm aware of at least two forums that WILL NOT censor under basically any circumstance (mine being one), which means that attempting to keep the genie in the bottle risks this spilling over to OTHER forums where there is zero means of control.

Second, burying dirty laundry does not wash it. Indeed, all that happens is that whatever made it dirty starts to rot, and then its not only dirty, it stinks. Usually it ends up stinking up the carpet, underlayment in the floor, and ultimately the entire place - possibly permanently. You don't want that to happen.

So.

If there are real issues, let's have 'em. If you're gutless enough to post them yourself, then I question whether they're "real'. I know people like to "keep it quiet", but that's counter-productive - the only way you find out if what's going on is an isolated incident or a real problem is by NOT keeping it quiet, but rather, putting it out there where everyone can see and comment on it.

Second, if you're not man (or woman) enough to stand behind your own words, THEN its time to shut up. At least that's how I see it.

Next, I want to bring into question a bit of the issue on the "Angel" stuff. Folks, evangelizing about something is perfectly fine, BUT this site (and its business) prohibit the same thing being done here by others. To ask any of the people involved with SD to do this on OTHER forums or at other places is ethically bankrupt. I certainly understand the desire to ban this sort of thing from here (indeed, this is why I don't post my trips locally in Destin here, even though I'm NOT a charter operator) BUT if one of SD's "angels" came into our club and started evangelizing SD, when we cannot do the same on this site, the reception they would receive would be VERY harsh. This is just plain old-fashioned wrong, and to the extent that I have ethical issues with a business, I won't spend my moeny there.

A couple more psi.....

[AliKat]

Thank you Kamala

Now go call that phone number I gave you and get some pampering before our trip. You deserve the best!!!

I second this.

Sorry about my play on a typo earlier. Just trying to lighten the mood.

[Walter]

Genesis,

I agree, there's no need to shut down discussion. That's why we let this discussion continue. OTOH, there's no need for the discussion to get heated.

Lots of concerns have been aired. Kamala is working on solutions and we are helping her through this process as a team. I believe all concerns have been aired and most have been answered. If I'm correct, there's no reason to beat a dead horse. Of course, if you want to continue beating that horse, go for it.

All,

I have gotten reports of some folks PMing, e-mailing and calling people who are not involved over these issues and that these are continuing even after the people receiving them have asked that they stop. You may continue to contact SingleDivers management about these issues until they've been resolved, but please do not harrass other members. If someone has asked you to stop contacting them, please honor that request.

[Neptuner]

Genesis, I apologize if my tone was in any way a "scream" in my post, but I am positive that I made no reference to SD being my ship, as this is a vessel which we all truly share.

I also wasn't suggesting that we bury this laundry at all, nor was I suggesting that anyone should stop posting their suggestions for improvement or resolution of issues that exist, I was merely stating that the manner in which some of it has been done did not appear productive to me. You’re right, I don’t want the laundry to contaminate the entire place.

Several people have already pointed out (the original message opening this thread in fact) that the manner in which communication is conveyed often sways the conversation and hence the entire attitude toward the resolution of the problem one way or another. I'm simply trying to suggest that we address these issues without fanning a negative flame.

I think it's safe to assume that if ten people make the suggestion that we should be getting receipts for any money received, we can all logically deduce that this is not an isolated incident. Management will presumably act upon this accordingly and the situation will be resolved. Personally I would much rather hear that suggestion a thousand times than to listen to one person itemizing their grievances against the company item by item in chronological order... but again, that's my opinion. To me it just sounds more like finger pointing and bickering rather than a valid attempt to effect change. I would dare say that few meetings of any governing body, business or otherwise, get much accomplished by opening the floor to any and all personal grievances with detailed commentary.

I can assure you that I am not attempting to extinguish anyone's power of speech or squelch any additional suggestions, I was only trying to encourage people to sit back and assess before they pressed the "Add Reply" button, nothing more, nothing less. If some people have made the decision to leave already, I regret that sincerely, but I would ask that they exit graciously and not cast any aspersions as they go. Indeed, they are entitled to have their personal issues resolved as well, but I would assume there is a more direct route than this forum for obtaining adequate resolution.

On a side note, you may want to edit your post, as I think your reference to people being gutless is missing a “not� in the sentence. Normally not an issue, but in this thread it may be taken the wrong way.

Also, I personally appreciate your suggestion about the Angels “soliciting� new members as it was not something I was even aware of. You made your point eloquently and in a positive manner… I for one appreciate it.

[Dejah]

Hi All,

Well unfornately I've not been around too much lately due to work schedules, but from what I've read I will definately say there are some tempers flying... however I think those which are upset the most need to step back, calm down and then re-approach any subject and problems they might be encountering that way we don't come onto this thread or any others and attack one another with nasty words and comments.

I also don't mean to make these comments above in which to upset anyone and I apoligize now if it has, but writing nasty grams or throwing words at each other will never help resolve the problems it will only hurt your fellow divers on the board and cause them to come back with something and then it all causes a vicious circle of people at each others throats. I don't think any of us here want that happening as much as those who have gotten upset...

I myself personally have not had any problems here nor on any trip I've taken, yet a few of the comments I can understand like reciepts for one, but we all need to also understand that the board and site are still in it's infancy and growing fast also it's difficult for a small mgmt group to handle all the questions, problems, requests, etc as quickly as we may always want it to happen.

So with that all said, please everyone lets one another, stop with the name calling and attacks on each other and go back to enjoying the new friends we've all made and sharing our diving, trip experiences, pictures, etc..

Dejah

[ev780]

If you think I have a pitchfork now stand back and watch when you really freaking piss me off and some of you are bordering on getting very close to finding out what Kind of evil bitch I really am.

I won't be nice at all.... Because when I do blow it will be ugly and you don't want  to see that... I am not a nice person when you piss me off...

So unless you are ready to face the dragon in her den you need to leave it alone...

If you want to attack me fine lets get to it. I have no problem standing up to it....

Actually, Richard, I think your tactics are kinda heavy handed and really didn't appreciate the whispering innuendos at all. It's the action of a bully. Try asking nicely next time instead of tearing down the board. Most people will respond to a sweet talker but when you forces someone into a corner (even when you were right), you become someone I don't want to play with. Enough said, I'm taking my marbles home and will not share with you.

Okay, I've had enough. Lets let ALL the skeletons out of the closet. Kamala, would you like to start?

Thank you, I don't want to play with you either....you pull the wings off angels and butterflies.....it's a sadistic and hedonistic practice.

I am glad I never made a trip. I am done here!

F

[ScubaPunk]

Next, I want to bring into question a bit of the issue on the "Angel" stuff. Folks, evangelizing about something is perfectly fine, BUT this site (and its business) prohibit the same thing being done here by others. To ask any of the people involved with SD to do this on OTHER forums or at other places is ethically bankrupt. I certainly understand the desire to ban this sort of thing from here (indeed, this is why I don't post my trips locally in Destin here, even though I'm NOT a charter operator) BUT if one of SD's "angels" came into our club and started evangelizing SD, when we cannot do the same on this site, the reception they would receive would be VERY harsh. This is just plain old-fashioned wrong, and to the extent that I have ethical issues with a business, I won't spend my moeny there.

Also, I personally appreciate your suggestion about the Angels “soliciting� new members as it was not something I was even aware of. You made your point eloquently and in a positive manner… I for one appreciate it.

When I was asked to be an Angel, no one ever asked me to do any soliciting for SD.com. If they had, I wouldn't be an Angel. The fact is, I never even visit any of the other boards. The only thing I was asked to do, was welcome new members, and help out with the Happy Hours. I can only speak from my own experience.

SP