73 replies to this topic

[George]

George ~ You might not want to announce that you are now Trollable.. all the ladies of SD might start pming you.

The downside to this is what?

Next time you come visit you MUST DIVE. NO going home early. I will allow it once but never twice.

Ha...not sure I could compete with all the handsome hunks of SD especially in the NW or heading that way. But if you insist...I will do my best!

Just don't make me take you over my knee and spank you...whoops...wrong thread!

[Cold_H2O]

George ~ I stand corrected.. There is not a down side to announcing you are now trollable..

LADIES ~ Did you all notice GEORGE has announced he is now trollable? Get those pm's sent his way

Heading this way hmmm I wonder to whom you might be refering??? :anna:

I thought we had already delt with the spanking issue.. Do we need to rehash it again? Not a good idea to try and put me over your knee..
I only look small on the outside...

Edited by gis_gal, 19 October 2005 - 02:30 PM.

[TraceMalin]

Just wanted to address some of Trace's concerns here as I felt some were a bit misleading.

Perrone, I'm not trying to mislead anyone. I've been involved with the DIR community and GUE for about 5 years. I've seen people complain about things such as the lockdown screw on the primary reel being too small. It's difficult to get a good lock on it and your line will play out behind you unnoticed when it's on the rear D-ring. This is definitely a problem for me because I severed the tendons in my right hand and my grip, when trying to tighten something very small is slightly weaker than my left, even though I'm right-handed -- especially while wearing wetsuit gloves. The dry gloves seem to allow for a better grip. The original GUE answer to that from my instructor was, "Learn to dive." Later, Halcyon began making larger lockdown screws. Of course, before that time, the correct answer to the problem was "doing it wrong." One immediate solution to that problem would be to place it on the front crotch D-ring. Problem solved. Well... not really. See, I was taught that the front crotch D-ring was supposed to be folded under in the "non-scootering position" when you weren't scootering. It's fairly easy to attach a reel to this ring so no big deal, but you can't do that. The reel might drag and it's hanging low on you increasing your profile. Yeah, but... I'm just putting it there for 2 minutes. I'm the primary reel man & I'm just swimming from the basin all of 50 feet before I unclip it to find a primary tie-off? That's not where it goes though. I'm not towing a reel for exploratory diving! If I was, then I could see having it behind me in the slipstream of my tanks & crotch. Yes, but it needs to be a habit. Why? In case you do. Hello! I'm not JJ and I'm going to be spending many years diving in caves that have a main gold line. I only need the reel to run from my primary tie-off to my secondary to the main line. It goes behind you. Yeah, but behind me it gets rough treatment by my buttocks & upper thighs when I kick and may cause the line to spool. That's where it goes. Argh, okay, I'll wear it behind me where it's tough reaching back behind the light canister to get to it & tough to reach back to the left behind the stage bottles - FOR CLASS.

Then, George changed his mind about that and it was moved to the left hip on the internet. I don't know what JJ's policy was or is after that. Of course, the crotch D-ring being out is not DIR according to JJ. Andrew G was incorrect in teaching that. It's a convenient temporary attachment point for bottles and cameras as you switch things around at deco stops or to stow gear during the dive to JJ. Makes sense. Then, I discussed that with my cave instructor who likes it in when not scootering. Less chance of it stirring stuff up when passing through a restriction. That makes sense too. I'm keeping it in. Then, I'm diving and not expecting to scooter. A friend pulls up to me on his and asks, "Want to play with this?" YEAH! My front crotch ring was folded in and I had to undo my harness to get it out to scooter. I tried scootering with it in before and it pulls you kind of uncomfortably.

Then, you watch the GUE Britannic expedition and someone has a white reel on the right side behind the canister light. Is that clipped to a D-ring? To a hole in the back plate? Either way, it wasn't supposed to be there according to the three GUE classes I took. What if the long hose wasn't deployable? & shame on his buddy. Nothing is coming between your long hose and my ability to get MY alloted gas in your tanks.

1.  Attach your toolbag to your rear D-Ring.  Or your left hip ring if you aren't carryimg bottles.  NOTE this is NOT a DIR answer.  But from what I have been able to glean, the DIR way is NOT just rigid standardization.  It's about a baseline to work from to solve problems.

Placing a tool bag back there will find a diver running into the same buoyancy & trim issues that would come about if butt mounting lights. You would also have too much risk of an entanglement hazard. A monofilament line could easily wreak havoc on your day if managed to snag the bag or tools sticking out of the bag. If you move the bag forward to see what's caught, you can help the line find your canister to your right or your stages to your left. With heavy tools you'd better have that crotch strap sewn because the weight would love to pull your crotch strap free. Sewn is DIR by the way people. As in my above example, the problems are never solved until the generals say they are. Us lowly ogres aren't supposed to solve problems for ourselves. That's why Quest & the list exists.

2.  WKPP divers did sidemount.

Then, they weren't doing it right. Sidemounting wasn't DIR. Was this while George was the WKPP project director? He and I exchanged emails about the removal of tanks and the tightness of the harness. He also told me that two of my GUE instructors together couldn't make one good moron and told me a story about having to beat the third. One of my GUE instructors said that if you took George's scooter away he sucks as a diver. So, you've got GUE instructors spending too much time teaching DIR-F and Tech classes, but wow do they look good! And, you've got a world-record holding diver spending too much time using multiple scooters and gases to explore cave systems and not enough time doing Basic 5 and swim skills. Hmmm... why do I think George might know a bit more about diving?

3.  I don't think you can fault GUE instructors in the field for what Halcyon products lacked.  I've found Halcyon very open to talk about gear and potential changes.  Saw it happen first hand last weekend.

I'm not finding fault with them for what EE/Halcyon oproducts lacked. I'm finding fault with them for having defended imperfect products as being that way by telling those of us who knew how to fix them that we were wrong about changes Halcyon eventually made including a larger lockdown screw. I said in my post that the guys at EE/Halcyon were the best dudes I've ever met and really listened to what I had to say -- especially about the pocket being too rigid. You can't get your hand inside especially with gloves. I have sleeker hands than most guys with pianist's fingers and I have trouble getting into the pocket without gloves. I'd hate to be a big guy with catcher's mitts wearing dry gloves.

4. This is also an issue for me, and one I intend to discuss at the GUE conference next month.  MANY of the GUE divers are wreck divers.  I want to talk to them, and to Jarrod about their training, and why GUE doesn't offer a wreck track.  I know that GI was a wreck diver before he headed to the caves, and I know they used to have a wreck class/seminar.

Do that. I'll bet you money they'll tell you that they are working on it. Just like they are working on the open water which is coming out soon. But, no one should learn to dive until that's in play & don't wreck dive either.

5.  I don't find this much of a problem.  DIR is an evolving thing, and a moving target.  BUT, I think a GREAT overemphasis is placed on DIR as gear config.  Start with a baseline, modify your team's gear to meet your needs.  There was a HUGE DIR thing a few weeks back about diving steel tanks in the ocean.

Steel tanks in the ocean! Say it isn't so! I was taught to dive Dbl AL 80's with no more than 20 min of deco due to changing ocean conditions unlike caves. Then, I found a cave that changed on me in an hour & what about calm seas like in Bonaire? Bob Sherwood started hammering me about a back zip DUI suit when I was teaching a class and told my students in dbls they wouldn't be able to swim twin 104's up from the ocean if their BCD's tore. He was right about my back zip more or less. After 12 years of diving the thing, my zipper finally needed replacing the very next week. At the same time, my students found they could swim doubles up from North Carolina depths in 3mm suits without gas in their wings.

The invention of the Aqualung was the baseline for scuba, then cave divers evolved what was becoming available as time went on until the Hogarthian way became the baseline & then GUE went beyond that. Unfortunately, no other person or group or manufacturer is "doing it right." If JJ phrased Halcyon & DIR as "The Holistic Approach" GUE wouldn't be getting as much press. But, it's almost brilliant to be one of the best groups of divers with some great products and almost say, "We are the only ones who know how to dive." It makes every diver look at your name, your products and diving more carefully scrutinizing everything like never before. That's DIR's biggest gift -- getting people thinking. The backlash is an elitist & competitive diving environment.

You have to use what makes sense.  And that's DIR.  Think the entire problem through, and plan accordingly.

No, dude, that's called common sense & that's just solid diving.

Trace

[dennis mccarty]

Is there such a thing as too much training? Or is the risk merely collecting too many c-cards more for the sake of the card and not for the knowledge gained that the card represents?

Okay, I've never been able to pass up an opportunity to stick my foot in my mouth, so here goes...

First, I am a newly certified diver. PADI Open Water, and in fact I'm so newly certified, PADI hasn't sent me my permanent c-card yet (I still have 30 days on the PIC card, though). I'm not by any means an expert, true; I have, however, spent a lot of time perusing SCUBA-related boards that are populated by a seemingly inordinate number of technical divers and fairly advanced rec divers. I have come to a couple of conclusions, one based on my experience with the PADI certification process and one based on my observations of other boards. First, the personal experience one (pulling on flame-proof suit now):

The training is not as important as the trainee: more specifically, the trainee's attitude toward the training and his/her dilligence in adhering to that training. What I mean by that is this: diving, like many other sports, has a number of inherent risks that a diver must assume, simply by descending below the surface of the water while breathing air from a pressurized cylinder. That assumption of risk is a personal choice, and a personal responsibility, an individual responsibility. Certifying agencies can only go so far in preparing a person to accept and effectively manage those risks, mainly by establishing *minimum* safety standards and ensuring that those being certified have been exposed to those standards. Written tests, file copies of independent-study knowledge reviews, and practical skills evaluations by qualified instructors are how the agencies accomplish that. Once the agency is satisfied, it's entirely up to the diver to remember their training and use it effectively to avoid killing themselves or their buddies while chasing the underwater wildlife.

Incidentally, the PADI certification process is not unlike the process used by state and national agencies to certify emergency medical technicians (I used to be one myself, years ago). There's a specific period of study, hands-on training, and evaluation, followed by practical experience in a real-world environment, culminating in written and practical skills evaluations by qualified certifiers. The military uses a similar concept for advanced training beyond Basic Military Training. Of course, EMT's and the military also have formal mentoring processes that help newbies make the transition from being certified to being proficient; recreational diving lacks that advantage. The onus is on the new diver to develop their knowledge however they can manage to do that. So, the short version is that training is only effective if it's used, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with how much documentation a diver has, and everything to do with how that diver conducts themselves in the water.

The second conclusion:

Different agencies establish standards for different flavors of diving. We've all seen the discussions (or flame wars, whatever description suits you) over the merits of one agency over another. In truth, it's difficult to compare certifying agencies, because in nearly every case the agency was formed to cater to a specific segment of the diving community that wasn't being well served at the time. Even when general categories of certification overlap (i.e. the various agencies that conduct "open water" certification), it's difficult to compare one to another, since the organizations that conduct both technical and recreational training have differing philosphies on certification (or more specifically the skills necessary to be considered certified) than agencies who cater mainly to recreational divers. And here's the kicker: neither approach is wrong. They both will produce safe divers, as well as those whom none of us would want to be within a nautical mile of. It all comes down, again, to the individual diver and their dedication to preserving life and limb by staying within their training, or seeking additional training to develop skills. Is it possible to have too much training in the context of a single agency? Probably; at some point, you're going to reach a point of diminishing returns where the skills you pick up in training are less valuable than the ones you'd pick up and hone naturally by just diving. Experience counts. When you get to the point where you're paying an instructor to watch you demonstrate skills you've already developed on your own, you've probably reached the point where you have too much training.

Another side of the original question ("Is there such a thing as too much training?", for those of you who have lost the though along the way) is actually a second question: how do you define "too much training"? Does that mean that every dive you log is with an instructor, and you never do any dives just for the heck of it or to exercise skills you've learned previously? That would be *my* idea of too much training, as in "too much training, not enough play". Or is "too much" indicated by someone's obsession with every single detail, ney, the minutae of diving, to the exclusion of all else (including the original point: to have fun)? Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer in procedures, checklists, and doing things the same way every time (it's an old habit beaten into me by the USAF, I'll admit, but it does seem to work), but c'mon! At some point the checklists are done and it's time to light the fires, kick the tires, and first one up is the leader. Let 'er rip and have a ball, dude! (Or dudette, if you prefer... ) I think when the training gets in the way of the fun, you've probably reached the point where you have Too Much Training. By the way, nitpicking other divers' rigs (e.g. "Dude, you are soooo going to die if you go in the water without rerouting your console hose!") could be an indication of Too Much Training, according to that definition, too.

Okay, enough ranting. Dive Safe, Dive Happy, and Dive Often!

Cheers!

Jim

I heard that. Ive been in law enforcement for too many years and always when the *** hits the fan, training takes over. Scared, yes, fear, yes but then they become your friends because of your training. Great response

[normblitch]

Trace's approach is excellent, and a great advertisement for a "club" or "friends" teaching environment.  By moving to clearly defined deliverables we've tended to lose the best of what a subjective teaching environment can provide.  But when I was training I experienced the worst kind of "club" environment, one that was elitist and exclusive.  Like many others I gave up at that point, and only went back into the sport when I could see the deliverable.  For anyone to accept Trace's approach they need to have developed complete faith in the instructor's or club's ability and desire to deliver.  From what I've read, Trace would inspire me, but an awful lot of instructors out there wouldn't.

On practicalities, I love the idea of a 25-dive AOW course.  If Trace can give me any tips I'll try to market it here.

When I started, there was 25-dive MINIMUM (sometimes 50+) before you were even ASKED if you thought you were ready for AOW...You were rushed, as in Frats/Sororities...it wasn't just the 7-10th Dives...

Norm

[normblitch]

Actually Trace brings up another pet peeve of mine.

I have seen divers that want their skill set to be absolutely perfect before hitting the open water.  The result with many of these is literally spending every weekend at a shallow lake or quarry doing nothing but skills.

This sounds good and in some respects it is.  But, they never see what situations look like to forced them to learn those skills in the first place.  The result is a diver with 100-200 dives in the same lake/quarry that has never been on a boat or built any other "real" experience.  This turns into the equivalent of the diver who has never dived out of a class.  I guess that what I am saying is that if a person doesn't push the envelope a little bit, then they don't tend to grow more confident.  This is why I like Trace's course outline  .  It forces students to push the envelope a bit and not simply be content because they can do all of these skills.  It teaches them when to apply a given skill and proves to them that they can do it under pressure.

Brian,

You've hit on one of my pet peeves and we both know it really often stems from the DIR community and usually is exhibited among divers who are new to the sport and gravitated toward GUE right after OW and AOW training. I'm going to post this comment, not to criticize GUE, GUE instructors, GUE members or those other divers who are interested in GUE or DIR diving, but rather to present the way I personally viewed my own experiences as a GUE student and as member of the DIR community and technical diving community.

Like my TDI tech instructor said, "DIR: It's not about how well you dive, it's about how good you look diving."

I've heard so many newbie DIR divers brag about being able to hold perfect trim and perform the DIR-F skills flawlessly and struggle for 2 or 3 years to do so while making very few experience dives. I know guys that spend just about every dive hanging out at 10 feet (and I love them, I really do! ) just trying to hold the stop and do S-drills and valve drills for 2 straight hours. I know because I join them from time to time and I'm told I'm looking totally dialed-in during our sessions, but I still go diving, learn and play.

The attitude that bothers me among those who just train to look good and master every skill is that they may have forgotten why they started diving in the first place. They've turned an exploratory sport into a competitive sport and devalue the accomplishments of all those who have given us this sport to enjoy and those who continue to try new things, experiment and make it grow.

Let it grow, let it grow,
let it blossom, let it flow.
In the sun and in the snow
love is lovely, let it grow.



All we need is love.

Trace

Trace,

as always, Elegant, and Objectively Precise..IMHO, you made the perfect Dr Jeckel & Mr Hyde comparison/contrast...

MY final episode with them was a trip to EE to gain an insight into Hogarthian regular/hose use with an H-valve on a single steelie 95. The young Lad informed me that THEY felt H-valves were inherently DANGEROUS, and therefore they didn't use them. Being a little confused, I inquired as to WHY they were deemed unsafe, and the Mantra was simply repeated, no explanation given, and the Lad drifted off into the 1000-yard stare... On my way out, (NEVER to return) I'm sure I heard "Drink the Koolaid"

Later, at another Shop (not NEARLY so DIR, heck, they did SIDEMOUNT and Solo stuff!), I got the info on H-valve rigging, AND found out the weak side to the H-valve...

I ONLY drink Koolaid AFTER reading the Label...

Norm

[PerroneFord]

Trace, who did your GUE classes?

[normblitch]

Just wanted to address some of Trace's concerns here as I felt some were a bit misleading.

Perrone, I'm not trying to mislead anyone. I've been involved with the DIR community and GUE for about 5 years. I've seen people complain about things such as the lockdown screw on the primary reel being too small. It's difficult to get a good lock on it and your line will play out behind you unnoticed when it's on the rear D-ring. This is definitely a problem for me because I severed the tendons in my right hand and my grip, when trying to tighten something very small is slightly weaker than my left, even though I'm right-handed -- especially while wearing wetsuit gloves. The dry gloves seem to allow for a better grip. The original GUE answer to that from my instructor was, "Learn to dive." Later, Halcyon began making larger lockdown screws. Of course, before that time, the correct answer to the problem was "doing it wrong." One immediate solution to that problem would be to place it on the front crotch D-ring. Problem solved. Well... not really. See, I was taught that the front crotch D-ring was supposed to be folded under in the "non-scootering position" when you weren't scootering. It's fairly easy to attach a reel to this ring so no big deal, but you can't do that. The reel might drag and it's hanging low on you increasing your profile. Yeah, but... I'm just putting it there for 2 minutes. I'm the primary reel man & I'm just swimming from the basin all of 50 feet before I unclip it to find a primary tie-off? That's not where it goes though. I'm not towing a reel for exploratory diving! If I was, then I could see having it behind me in the slipstream of my tanks & crotch. Yes, but it needs to be a habit. Why? In case you do. Hello! I'm not JJ and I'm going to be spending many years diving in caves that have a main gold line. I only need the reel to run from my primary tie-off to my secondary to the main line. It goes behind you. Yeah, but behind me it gets rough treatment by my buttocks & upper thighs when I kick and may cause the line to spool. That's where it goes. Argh, okay, I'll wear it behind me where it's tough reaching back behind the light canister to get to it & tough to reach back to the left behind the stage bottles - FOR CLASS.

Then, George changed his mind about that and it was moved to the left hip on the internet. I don't know what JJ's policy was or is after that. Of course, the crotch D-ring being out is not DIR according to JJ. Andrew G was incorrect in teaching that. It's a convenient temporary attachment point for bottles and cameras as you switch things around at deco stops or to stow gear during the dive to JJ. Makes sense. Then, I discussed that with my cave instructor who likes it in when not scootering. Less chance of it stirring stuff up when passing through a restriction. That makes sense too. I'm keeping it in. Then, I'm diving and not expecting to scooter. A friend pulls up to me on his and asks, "Want to play with this?" YEAH! My front crotch ring was folded in and I had to undo my harness to get it out to scooter. I tried scootering with it in before and it pulls you kind of uncomfortably.

Then, you watch the GUE Britannic expedition and someone has a white reel on the right side behind the canister light. Is that clipped to a D-ring? To a hole in the back plate? Either way, it wasn't supposed to be there according to the three GUE classes I took. What if the long hose wasn't deployable? & shame on his buddy. Nothing is coming between your long hose and my ability to get MY alloted gas in your tanks.

1.  Attach your toolbag to your rear D-Ring.  Or your left hip ring if you aren't carryimg bottles.  NOTE this is NOT a DIR answer.  But from what I have been able to glean, the DIR way is NOT just rigid standardization.  It's about a baseline to work from to solve problems.

Placing a tool bag back there will find a diver running into the same buoyancy & trim issues that would come about if butt mounting lights. You would also have too much risk of an entanglement hazard. A monofilament line could easily wreak havoc on your day if managed to snag the bag or tools sticking out of the bag. If you move the bag forward to see what's caught, you can help the line find your canister to your right or your stages to your left. With heavy tools you'd better have that crotch strap sewn because the weight would love to pull your crotch strap free. Sewn is DIR by the way people. As in my above example, the problems are never solved until the generals say they are. Us lowly ogres aren't supposed to solve problems for ourselves. That's why Quest & the list exists.

2.  WKPP divers did sidemount.

Then, they weren't doing it right. Sidemounting wasn't DIR. Was this while George was the WKPP project director? He and I exchanged emails about the removal of tanks and the tightness of the harness. He also told me that two of my GUE instructors together couldn't make one good moron and told me a story about having to beat the third. One of my GUE instructors said that if you took George's scooter away he sucks as a diver. So, you've got GUE instructors spending too much time teaching DIR-F and Tech classes, but wow do they look good! And, you've got a world-record holding diver spending too much time using multiple scooters and gases to explore cave systems and not enough time doing Basic 5 and swim skills. Hmmm... why do I think George might know a bit more about diving?

3.  I don't think you can fault GUE instructors in the field for what Halcyon products lacked.  I've found Halcyon very open to talk about gear and potential changes.  Saw it happen first hand last weekend.

I'm not finding fault with them for what EE/Halcyon oproducts lacked. I'm finding fault with them for having defended imperfect products as being that way by telling those of us who knew how to fix them that we were wrong about changes Halcyon eventually made including a larger lockdown screw. I said in my post that the guys at EE/Halcyon were the best dudes I've ever met and really listened to what I had to say -- especially about the pocket being too rigid. You can't get your hand inside especially with gloves. I have sleeker hands than most guys with pianist's fingers and I have trouble getting into the pocket without gloves. I'd hate to be a big guy with catcher's mitts wearing dry gloves.

4. This is also an issue for me, and one I intend to discuss at the GUE conference next month.  MANY of the GUE divers are wreck divers.  I want to talk to them, and to Jarrod about their training, and why GUE doesn't offer a wreck track.  I know that GI was a wreck diver before he headed to the caves, and I know they used to have a wreck class/seminar.

Do that. I'll bet you money they'll tell you that they are working on it. Just like they are working on the open water which is coming out soon. But, no one should learn to dive until that's in play & don't wreck dive either.

5.  I don't find this much of a problem.  DIR is an evolving thing, and a moving target.  BUT, I think a GREAT overemphasis is placed on DIR as gear config.  Start with a baseline, modify your team's gear to meet your needs.  There was a HUGE DIR thing a few weeks back about diving steel tanks in the ocean.

Steel tanks in the ocean! Say it isn't so! I was taught to dive Dbl AL 80's with no more than 20 min of deco due to changing ocean conditions unlike caves. Then, I found a cave that changed on me in an hour & what about calm seas like in Bonaire? Bob Sherwood started hammering me about a back zip DUI suit when I was teaching a class and told my students in dbls they wouldn't be able to swim twin 104's up from the ocean if their BCD's tore. He was right about my back zip more or less. After 12 years of diving the thing, my zipper finally needed replacing the very next week. At the same time, my students found they could swim doubles up from North Carolina depths in 3mm suits without gas in their wings.

The invention of the Aqualung was the baseline for scuba, then cave divers evolved what was becoming available as time went on until the Hogarthian way became the baseline & then GUE went beyond that. Unfortunately, no other person or group or manufacturer is "doing it right." If JJ phrased Halcyon & DIR as "The Holistic Approach" GUE wouldn't be getting as much press. But, it's almost brilliant to be one of the best groups of divers with some great products and almost say, "We are the only ones who know how to dive." It makes every diver look at your name, your products and diving more carefully scrutinizing everything like never before. That's DIR's biggest gift -- getting people thinking. The backlash is an elitist & competitive diving environment.

You have to use what makes sense.  And that's DIR.  Think the entire problem through, and plan accordingly.

No, dude, that's called common sense & that's just solid diving.

Trace

Trace,

again, accurate and dispassionate...

I'm betting here that YOU didn't drink the Koolaid...



Norm

[PerroneFord]

Maybe I just need to stay out of the water

[normblitch]

Maybe I just need to stay out of the water

No, in fact I am really looking forward to Diving with you...

IMHO, you just need to take a step back, look at what ALL the Clans & Cliques are saying, and Cherry Pick...

Don't drink ANYONE's KoolAid until you have read, understood, and Independantly verified ALL the Labels.

Norm

Question Authority

[PerroneFord]

What seems odd to me, is that people THINK I have somehow landed in bed with GUE. All I've ever said was that I want to be a good diver, and I have said on numberous occasions that I would be taking IANTD, GUE, and NACD classes. I've been evaluating all the agencies and these seem to have what I like best.

[Diverbrian]

how do you delete a post.. grrr

Ask a moderator like yours truly. Let one of us know which one and it will get moved as yet another service to our great SD posters.

Perrone,

I have read all of your posts. It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and would do fine. I dive with GUE types more frequently than some people know with "The Scuba Guys" being based in Detroit and a more "hard core" element being the divers that frequent Dan MacKay's shop out of Kingston, ONT.

I wind up diving with their students quite a bit. I have been called one of the more offensive terms in GUE lingo many times as a joke (because some of my rig is not DIR) and I have taken it that way because those people are more than willing to dive the same dives that I do and neither of us would dive those kind of dives with the other if we didn't feel safe with our buddy. I have also been called that term, not in jest by the some members of the group farther to my East. Guess what, I don't need to dive with them and they don't need to dive with me. I consider it their loss.

If you take that Adv. Nitrox class be sure to let us know what you think.

Brian (who is Normoxic Trimix trained, but not DIR)

[PerroneFord]

I wanted to delete the post where I couldn't figure it out and asked how to do it! The other one stays.

My friends have nearly talked me out of taking the couse. I know I lack the experience for it. That's why I asked here. I just wondered if people thought it was REALLY crazy to take that course with so little experience, if one were truly willing to grow into the diving portion of it.

I'd like to move to diving doubles, and that class seems like a terrific way to learn under the tuttelege of an instructor rather than putzing around on my own. Most of my classes from here forward will need to be done with doubles anyway (cavern, cave, wreck, trimix, etc.) so I might as well start getting used to them.

Thanks anyway guys.

[Diverbrian]

I wanted to delete the post where I couldn't figure it out and asked how to do it! The other one stays.

My friends have nearly talked me out of taking the couse. I know I lack the experience for it. That's why I asked here. I just wondered if people thought it was REALLY crazy to take that course with so little experience, if one were truly willing to grow into the diving portion of it.

I'd like to move to diving doubles, and that class seems like a terrific way to learn under the tuttelege of an instructor rather than putzing around on my own. Most of my classes from here forward will need to be done with doubles anyway (cavern, cave, wreck, trimix, etc.) so I might as well start getting used to them.

Thanks anyway guys.

My personal view on that course is that if you intend to dive doubles nearly all of the time anyways... take it. It is better to learn how to rig a set of doubles under the tuteledge of a good instructor than have stuff clipped off every which way and not really be aware that you are having issues.

If you aren't ready, then then remember the motto that starts any IANTD course...

You pay for training. You EARN certification.


In other words there is no guarantee that you will pass the course, but most instructors at this level won't take you unless they think that you will. They may get there money either way, but most instructors don't like wasting their time and/or yours. We had one guy (out of two) that was advised that taking Normoxic Trimix was going to be a waste of his time after the first class session. Hint: I was the guy that stayed in the class.

I would try it and see. As you said, if you will dealing with doubles, this is really the best way way to pick up tips from more experienced divers/instructors and avoid some of the pitfalls that many new doubles divers run into. Also, when you are dealing with deco bottles, you see where some rigging things may be a problem when it is not until you sling that deco bottle.

[PerroneFord]

Thanks man. I've been running this around my head for nearly a week. On the one hand do I sign up for a course that is clearly a reach for me, and get out of it what I can, or do I back down, take the beginner course, and move to this later.

I think I will try the course and if I am too uncomfortable, or my instructor is, we'll back it down. But I think I'll regret not giving myself the opportunity when it's in front of me. If nothing else, I'll get to try doubles, learn about diving with them, and end up with just my basic card. That's the most likely scenario anyway. Even if I do pass the advancved, I won't be doing deco dives for some time yet. Just trying to get a doubles set going and practicing dives with it.

Slight aside.. any of you ever dive steel tanks wet? I mean doubles. I am thinking of trying out a set of 72s or other small set but I am not diving dry. The negative buoyancy should come pretty close if I wear my full wetsuit. I'll be about 3 pounds negative with just half my wetsuit on. which should be easily swimmable.