87 replies to this topic

[TraceMalin]

Trace,

REMEMBER:

For MAXIMUM style points,

1) Expire with MASK ON

2) Expire with reg IN

3) Remember to write some some pithy "Mommy, Sorry I did somethin' STUPID" notes on the Slate.

"Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a Good Looking Corpse" (from note found in James Dean's DayPlanner

Norm,

Um... regarding #3... you REALLY need to read my Wetnotes thread in "General Diving."

Trace

[normblitch]

Trace,

REMEMBER:

For MAXIMUM style points,

1) Expire with MASK ON

2) Expire with reg IN

3) Remember to write some some pithy "Mommy, Sorry I did somethin' STUPID" notes on the Slate.

"Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a Good Looking Corpse" (from note found in James Dean's DayPlanner

Norm,

Um... regarding #3... you REALLY need to read my Wetnotes thread in "General Diving."

Trace

mmmmmm....

took a bit to find it (busy Board)...

D***, Friend, you can really write...

(I was really making Gallows Humor refering to the ones like the recent loss in P3, or the ones like Henley's)

Norm

[WreckWench]

D***, Friend, you can really write...

Now THAT is an understatement!

I do hope to publish his first uh...romance novel/ wet notes...it will certainly be a best seller!

[ScubaHawk]

RE: #3 with my last dying breath in my lungs and my slate in my hands, I would wish to write:

"tell my family I have burried the 8 million in gold in a footlocker under "

[VADiver]

I plan my dives using V-Planner, but if I have to recalculate I keep M-Plan on the Palm-pilot I have dedicated for the purpose. Work's great, and gives me very similar profiles to V-Planner.

Perrone, how do you like M-Planner? I have D-Planner on my Palm Pilot and works out similar to V-Planner. It's simple to use, especially for modifications to a plan on the boat. Does M-Planner worl with the Palm OS software? And do you have an easy link to it so I can see what it's like. Thanks.

Edited by VADiver, 23 October 2005 - 09:39 AM.

[PerroneFord]

I haven't used D-Plan, but M-Plan is "OK" at best. It does run under PalmOS as I have it running on a Palm Vx.

Here is the link:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/bloedorn/


Like I said, it's use to me is really in case something goes astray on a dive and I need a new plan in a hurry. Abou the only time I can see this happening is if I am on a boat and the deep trip get's cancelled and we go to the shallows just to say I have a plan.

[Walter]

...another thing I just recalled re the Navy Tables that is of PRIME interest to the Mature Diver: AFAIR, they were designed around Males 18-25, Top-notch physical shape, AND INCLUDED a 2-3% Morbidity factor invoking the "exigencies of Service" Doctrine...sort of like comparing MilAv maintance with General AV standards...

Actually, they were not designed to kill 2 - 3% of Navy divers. That's a myth. They were designed to safely return Navy divers to the surface.

OTOH, if you believe that 2 - 3 % rate, and since we know DCS is more common on repetitive dives, especially with multiple days of diving and that the RDP is much more liberal than the US Navy tables, what would you say the morbidity rate is for the RDP?

The RDP has been shown to be a relatively safe table (there are no absolutely safe tables), but it is one of the most liberal currently available. I prefer a more conservative approach, but to each his own. I think we can discuss the differences without unjustly saying one table or another is dangerous. The US Navy tables are relatively safe, perhaps safer than others. I prefer not to use either the RDP nor the US Navy tables. When I use tables, I use modified US Navy tables with reduced NDLs. This gives me the benefits of the RDP (shorter NDLs) and the benefits of the US Navy tables (more conservative for repetitive dives).

[normblitch]

...another thing I just recalled re the Navy Tables that is of PRIME interest to the Mature Diver:  AFAIR, they were designed around Males 18-25, Top-notch physical shape, AND INCLUDED a 2-3% Morbidity factor invoking the "exigencies of Service" Doctrine...sort of like comparing MilAv maintance with General AV standards...

Actually, they were not designed to kill 2 - 3% of Navy divers. That's a myth. They were designed to safely return Navy divers to the surface.

OTOH, if you believe that 2 - 3 % rate, and since we know DCS is more common on repetitive dives, especially with multiple days of diving and that the RDP is much more liberal than the US Navy tables, what would you say the morbidity rate is for the RDP?

The RDP has been shown to be a relatively safe table (there are no absolutely safe tables), but it is one of the most liberal currently available. I prefer a more conservative approach, but to each his own. I think we can discuss the differences without unjustly saying one table or another is dangerous. The US Navy tables are relatively safe, perhaps safer than others. I prefer not to use either the RDP nor the US Navy tables. When I use tables, I use modified US Navy tables with reduced NDLs. This gives me the benefits of the RDP (shorter NDLs) and the benefits of the US Navy tables (more conservative for repetitive dives).

Gentle Walter,

I think you may have mis-read "Mortality" for "Morbidity"...

I stand behind my analogy that Military Diving is to Civilian Diving as Military Av Maintaince is to Civilian AV Maintainance...

Shall we look further into the mention that the Navy Dive Manual suggests a DC be on site for deco dives??

Only Caver I knew that ever comtemplated THAT was Clark Pitcairn...

Norm

[Walter]

Depending on which definition you use, they can be the same. In either case, the Navy does not plan to bend 2 - 3 % of its divers.

[normblitch]

Depending on which definition you use, they can be the same.  In either case, the Navy does not plan to bend 2 - 3 % of its divers.

'Nor do they count on crashing ALL A/C, either...ever see how many Navy birds make the Boneyard as opposed whose final moments involve "reading the Instructions on the inside of the Face Shield??"

You still have not addressed the fact that these Tables (Navy) are for FOLKS in TOP PHYSICAL SHAPE...as in NOT ME...

Now, if you want REALLY scary deco tables, ever see Commercial Tables?

(Hint: What is the average DIVING career length of a Comersh Diver)

Norm

[Walter]

You still have not addressed the fact that these Tables (Navy) are for FOLKS in TOP PHYSICAL SHAPE...as in NOT ME...

Those in top physical shape can usually get away with pushing the limits a bit more than those who aren't. In that case, I'd rather use the US Navy tables than some other popular choices, as the Navy tables are more conservative. As I said before, there are more conservative choices available.

[Diverbrian]

Depending on which definition you use, they can be the same. In either case, the Navy does not plan to bend 2 - 3 % of its divers.

No, they bend nearly all of them and treat it on the way up instead of treating the bubbles at the deeper depths and allowing the divers to come up relatively clean of inert gas in their blood to start with.

There is a reason that many divers call the tables/deco models that call for a great deal of shallow deco instead of deeper stops the "bend and treat" model. The best of both worlds (most conservative) is to do the deeper stops and add in the shallow deco from the other models which is actually a modified safety stop and throw in the painfully slow ascent from 15 ft that some divers prefer to do at a maximum of 2 ft. per minute (I don't have quite that much patience, but I should. It would be safer than the 5 ft. per minute that I typically do from the "safety stop".)

There are reasons that I don't follow too many tables other than the computer generated "V-planner" type tables or my VR-3 generated tables anymore. The tables I use promote the use of multiple deep stops with an extremely controlled ascent. The bubbles (by theory) don't get the chance to turn into something resembling decompression illness to start with. The shallow deco never hurt anyone (unless they try doing an extended time on pure O2), but if you are relying on it to prevent DCS, I have bad news. The bubbles already started coming out of solution. Then again, for safety I don't do much beyond two dives a day anymore and prefer a two-three hour surface interval between them. I may do two plus a later starting night dive.

It works for Navy salvage divers for two reasons:

1) They are in top-notch physical condition.

2) They throw them in the recompression chamber shortly after they come up to finish treating the DCS before they get a chance to really feel the symptoms.

[TraceMalin]

It works for Navy salvage divers for two reasons:

1) They are in top-notch physical condition.

2) They throw them in the recompression chamber shortly after they come up to finish treating the DCS before they get a chance to really feel the symptoms.

Yeah, commercial divers often surface more rapidly then finish their decos in a dry chamber. That practice changes the fact that the diver is less cold and the pressure in the chamber is at a constant & doesn't vary with slight changes in depth.

I believe the DCIEM tables were the only ones tested on wet working divers throughout development. We teach Navy, Navy Doppler. and DCIEM tables at PDIC. It's up to the instructor which of these or all become included in the course.

Trace