87 replies to this topic

[normblitch]

One of my favorite quotes is from a guy, we'll call him, George, talking with another guy who we will call John Orlowski.

George: You old guys really need to learn to dive! Us younger guys can decompress faster.

John Orlowski: What are those red splotches you have on your skin there?

George: Oh? These? I don't know. This happens to me all the time.

John Orlowski: They're called skin bends, son. I think you still need to listen to us old guys!

Before they were stars, they were learning.

Trace

I saw John O at the PSSP Old Timers Day weekend last...

Norm

[PerroneFord]

FWIW, until the "DSAT RDP", the Navy tables WERE the Rec tables...we noodled with them by adding Time and/or Depth for things like Cold, Exertion,Smoker,Mature Diver etc...

Norm

Are you sure about this? When were the DSAT tables put together. Because my PADI tables from the early 90s are backed off from the Navy Tables.

And didn't you guys know that smokers can't dive? Geez...

[normblitch]

FWIW, until the "DSAT RDP", the Navy tables WERE the Rec tables...we noodled with them by adding Time and/or Depth for things like Cold, Exertion,Smoker,Mature Diver etc...

Norm

Are you sure about this? When were the DSAT tables put together. Because my PADI tables from the early 90s are backed off from the Navy Tables.

And didn't you guys know that smokers can't dive? Geez...

When I cert'ed PADI OW in Nov '79, the Navy & PADI tables were the same; I'll dig out the olde Manuals and confirm...I was out of diving in the '90's, so I don't know when the DSAT RDP appeared...

And YES, smokers CAN & DO dive...I know ONE with a SAC averaging in the low .6 range who regularly outbreathes younger and better-conditioned Peers...



Norm

[Marvel]

any diver diving a mixed gas is a technical diver! Interesting...that makes all us nitrox divers certified under 40% still tech divers.

While I see no validity in the term, I have read many definitions. Most definitions have not included nitrox for many years.

NAUI's definition, for example, includes dives in which the mix is changed during the dive.

what would you call someone who either dives beyond recreational/sport diving depths aka 130ft or someone who takes a mixed gas class say over 40% or a rebreather class or even a decompression class?

A deep diver, an advanced nitrox diver, a rebreather diver and a decompression diver. They are not the same, calling them technical divers gives the false impression that they are. Even if you understand they are not the same, calling them technical divers communicates no real information.

You know, I've never gotten Walter's insistence that technical diving is an empty term until now- sometimes the brevity of his responses gets in the way...(hint, hint, Walter) Living in Florida as I do, I've had an opportunity to meet many kinds of divers who get painted with that broad brush. If you ask all the cave divers that I know what they would call themselves, the response would be a cave diver- I don't know of any that call themselves technical divers. Same holds true for the rebreather divers that I know. In fact, one we met in the Keys last Memorial Day (remember him, Kamala?) dives what is considered a strictly recreational configuration & profile when diving open circuit. Brian, you specialize in deep freshwater wrecks & are getting into mixes & deco diving. I've never heard you mention cave diving or that you dive rebreathers. Three entirely different types of diving & yet they are all getting classified as "technical." So, perhaps from a semantics point of view we really ought to try to get away from using that term & use more specific designations.

GUE divers have a name for people like Joe. 

Hmmm.... isn't that as unfair & insulting as the terms used to describe GUE divers? I'm surprised, Perrone.

[Walter]

FWIW, until the "DSAT RDP", the Navy tables WERE the Rec tables...we noodled with them by adding Time and/or Depth for things like Cold, Exertion,Smoker,Mature Diver etc...

Norm

Are you sure about this? When were the DSAT tables put together. Because my PADI tables from the early 90s are backed off from the Navy Tables.

And didn't you guys know that smokers can't dive? Geez...

PADI came out with the RDP in late 88 or early 89, I'm a little fuzzy on exactly when. I remember an ABC TV news show (Dateline? 20/20? - I forget the name) at the time that unfairly, IMHO, raked PADI over the coals for divers who'd been bent using the PADI tables that were merely relabeled US Navy tables. The examples they used were divers who'd been bent while "well within" the tables. However, when they told their profiles, they were pushing them right to the limits. PADI's RDP had just come out at the time. What surprised me was when PADI described them as being safer than the old tables, ABC took them at their word instead of pointing out they are way more liberal for repetitive diving. This was after ABC had been grossly unfair to PADI earlier in the "investigation." Crazy world.

[PerroneFord]

mmm.... isn't that as unfair & insulting as the terms used to describe GUE divers? I'm surprised, Perrone.

It is highly unfair and insulting. Which is why I didn't use the word. Also take note, I actually still "fit" the profile of that kind of diver, so I'd only be invoking a derogatory term toward myself.

[normblitch]

FWIW, until the "DSAT RDP", the Navy tables WERE the Rec tables...we noodled with them by adding Time and/or Depth for things like Cold, Exertion,Smoker,Mature Diver etc...

Norm

Are you sure about this? When were the DSAT tables put together. Because my PADI tables from the early 90s are backed off from the Navy Tables.

And didn't you guys know that smokers can't dive? Geez...

PADI came out with the RDP in late 88 or early 89, I'm a little fuzzy on exactly when. I remember an ABC TV news show (Dateline? 20/20? - I forget the name) at the time that unfairly, IMHO, raked PADI over the coals for divers who'd been bent using the PADI tables that were merely relabeled US Navy tables. The examples they used were divers who'd been bent while "well within" the tables. However, when they told their profiles, they were pushing them right to the limits. PADI's RDP had just come out at the time. What surprised me was when PADI described them as being safer than the old tables, ABC took them at their word instead of pointing out they are way more liberal for repetitive diving. This was after ABC had been grossly unfair to PADI earlier in the "investigation." Crazy world.

Walter,

Thanks for the Fill on circa...!

...another thing I just recalled re the Navy Tables that is of PRIME interest to the Mature Diver: AFAIR, they were designed around Males 18-25, Top-notch physical shape, AND INCLUDED a 2-3% Morbidity factor invoking the "exigencies of Service" Doctrine...sort of like comparing MilAv maintance with General AV standards...

Digressing back to the original Topic, let me chum the H20's with an Alternate definition of "Tech Diver":

A Diver who, after certing mainstream Rec, then re-examines mass-market gear and rigging, making Prudent Hogarthian Choices, AND persues a program of Continuing Studies (either Mentored or Independant) involving many of the cited texts seen as Footnotes in most Rec OW manuals I have seen, AND attempts via Internet or Physical contact to keep uptodate on Trends and evolving Techniques, AND makes constant Conscious Choices to Better their Diving skills, ALL THE WHILE ever striving to hold themselves to higher than Required Rec Standards...

My Point in Short, Tech ISN'T the Black Jeans nor the Bottled Water, maybe not even the Long Hose...it is a way of APPROACH and CONTINUED EXECUTION...

Norm

[VADiver]

Hmmm.... isn't that as unfair & insulting as the terms used to describe GUE divers?

Marvel, and what term would that be?

[Marvel]

Somehow, Vinny, I thnk you know.

[jholley309]

Are you sure about this? When were the DSAT tables put together. Because my PADI tables from the early 90s are backed off from the Navy Tables.

If you've got PADI tables from the early '90s, they're outdated. DSAT revises the tables every so often; evidently they participate with DAN for ongoing studies, and when they get better data, they revise the tables. My RDP is version 1.2, revised in February of 2003.

One of the guys in my CW class was re-certifying after being out of the water for 10-12 years, and his RDP didn't even have a version number or date on it! We cpmared a few "examples", and the old RDP was a lot more conservative on repetitve dives. I'm air-limited on most dives, anyway; above 80', I run out of air long before I get near a limit so the RDP works just dandy for me.

Cheers!

Jim

[PerroneFord]

My RDP does not have a version.

[jholley309]

My RDP does not have a version.

You've probably got one of the "old" ones then. Might as well pitch it and either get a current one or use something else.

BTW: the version number and rev date (if it has one) should be in the lower right corner of the Table 3 side, right under the "You're gonna die of you haven't been trained to use this table" caution. On the Wheel, it's on side 2 in the lower left.

Cheers!

Jim

[PerroneFord]

I have no intention of using this table. But it is nice to have it as a momento. I plan my dives using V-Planner, but if I have to recalculate I keep M-Plan on the Palm-pilot I have dedicated for the purpose. Work's great, and gives me very similar profiles to V-Planner.

I just need to get a wetbag for it before I go boat diving.

[TraceMalin]

Digressing back to the original Topic, let me chum the H20's with an Alternate definition of "Tech Diver":

A Diver who, after certing mainstream Rec, then re-examines mass-market gear and rigging, making Prudent Hogarthian Choices, AND persues a program of Continuing Studies (either Mentored or Independant) involving many of the cited texts seen as Footnotes in most Rec OW manuals I have seen, AND attempts via Internet or Physical contact to keep uptodate on Trends and evolving Techniques, AND makes constant Conscious Choices to Better their Diving skills, ALL THE WHILE ever striving to hold themselves to higher than Required Rec Standards...

My Point in Short, Tech ISN'T the Black Jeans nor the Bottled Water, maybe not even the Long Hose...it is a way of APPROACH and CONTINUED EXECUTION...

Norm

Crap! I'll never be a tech diver. I'm really keen on dying under 200 feet of cold black water because it's fun!

I once dated a nurse who worked in a nursing home. She was mean and insensitive. If you live too long... you'll be wishing for that catastrophic malfunction!

Trace

[normblitch]

Digressing back to the original Topic, let me chum the H20's with an Alternate definition of "Tech Diver":

A Diver who, after certing mainstream Rec, then re-examines mass-market gear and rigging, making Prudent Hogarthian Choices, AND persues a program of Continuing Studies (either Mentored or Independant) involving many of the cited texts seen as Footnotes in most Rec OW manuals I have seen, AND attempts via Internet or Physical contact to keep uptodate on Trends and evolving Techniques, AND makes constant Conscious Choices to Better their Diving skills, ALL THE WHILE ever striving to hold themselves to higher than Required Rec Standards...

My Point in Short, Tech ISN'T the Black Jeans nor the Bottled Water, maybe not even the Long Hose...it is a way of APPROACH and CONTINUED EXECUTION...

Norm

Crap! I'll never be a tech diver. I'm really keen on dying under 200 feet of cold black water because it's fun!

I once dated a nurse who worked in a nursing home. She was mean and insensitive. If you live too long... you'll be wishing for that catastrophic malfunction!

Trace

Trace,

REMEMBER:

For MAXIMUM style points,

1) Expire with MASK ON

2) Expire with reg IN

3) Remember to write some some pithy "Mommy, Sorry I did somethin' STUPID" notes on the Slate.

"Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a Good Looking Corpse" (from note found in James Dean's DayPlanner