Jump to content

  • These forums are for "after booking" trip communications, socializing, and/or trip questions ONLY.
  • You will NOT be able to book a trip, buy add-ons, or manage your trip by logging in here. Please login HERE to do any of those things.

Photo

Going to the Dark Side


  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#31 peterbj7

peterbj7

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,068 posts
  • Location:San Pedro (Belize) & Oxford (UK)
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:Instructor
  • Logged Dives:over 4000

Posted 04 December 2005 - 04:59 PM

If you can't breathe your diluent at your planned depth you haven't calculated the mix correctly. That's fundamental to CCR diving. And for any depth down to, say, 150', air is a perfectly acceptable diluent, though you want to switch to some form of helium mix by around then, as a CCR becomes hyper-narcotic relative to OC diving.

The term "rebreather" covers both semi-closed and fully-closed units, and though they look superficially similar they are fundamentally different. The Russian units are probably semi-closed, or they could be "oxygen rebreathers", designed to be used only in very shallow water.

The most popular trimix for a CCR is 10/50, not 10/60. This means 10% oxygen and 50% helium. The balance is nitrogen. If you work it out you'll see that heliair (helium mixed with air) can produce about 10/50, so it doesn't need separate oxygen to be added and is a very simple mix to prepare. That is breathable as an OC gas anywhere between 6msw and 150msw - about 18-492 ft. That said, any CCR diver is foolish if (s)he dives without suitable bailout tanks.

Edited by peterbj7, 04 December 2005 - 05:01 PM.


#32 normblitch

normblitch

    Everyone knows me

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 588 posts
  • Location:North FL
  • Gender:Male
  • Board Status:Ginnie Springs 12/17, Crystal River 12/18...
  • Cert Level:Cave
  • Logged Dives:522

Posted 05 December 2005 - 09:08 AM

I just ran across the Zac Jones incident in FLL on the Dive Accidents Forum...any new details to add??

Norm


There are a lot more options open to the diver than one would think in these situations:

You can fly the unit automatically AFTER YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

You can fly the unit manually, adding either oxygen or diluent so that you can stay within the proper PPO2 even if you have a hypoxic mix for diluent once you move up to the shallows.

Even if you have complete oxygen failure, you can use the diluent in the deeper zones until that become hypoxic. Then, you can switch over to another source such as a deco bottle.

If the oxygen solenoid sticks open, you can operate manually, shutting down the oxygen valve, flushing with diluent to lower the PPO2.

You can extend gas by driving the unit like a semi closed rebreather. Add some gas, shut the valve, breath a few breaths, repeat. You can also exhale gas into the water, which will waste some but still be way more efficient than going completely open circuit.

You can plug in your bailout or other external bottle to the unit if you are having problems with one of the onboard gas supplies such as if there is a first stage regulator failure.

You can turn the unit to open circuit, breathing the 27 cubic foot tanks (at 2640 psi), then switch to your bailout bottle until you get to stages or to the shallows, where you can switch to deco bottles.

You can always bail out to open circuit bottles.

So long as you monitor your gauges and follow what you have been taught in training, there are a lot more options than you might think. :cheerleader:



#33 ScubaDadMiami

ScubaDadMiami

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,022 posts
  • Location:Miami Beach, Florida
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:Course Director; CCR Instructor
  • Logged Dives:2000+

Posted 07 December 2005 - 12:03 AM

I just ran across the Zac Jones incident in FLL on the Dive Accidents Forum...any new details to add??


I am awaiting the information, too. Unfortunately, there are all too many times where those of us that could learn from these incidents are not privy to the information that the Government discovers along the way.
"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein

"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount

#34 scubafanatic

scubafanatic

    People are starting to get to know me

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 421 posts
  • Location:Arlington, TX
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:AOW, Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures, Cavern
  • Logged Dives:250

Posted 12 December 2005 - 07:26 PM

...at first glance, rebreathers sound pretty cool, and I'll admit I'm not highly versed in the technology, but my impression is that as of the year 2005 they are still highly experimental technology........for example, there is no such thing as getting rebreather certified as such, you get individually certified on each brand/model of rebreather.........training on a Meg doesn't qualify you to dive a KISS, for example.

Also, I'm kinda wondering what happens during your 2 -3 hr ( or 6 hr as ScubaDad says his unit will ultimately be rated for that ) run time if you suffer a 'loop-flood' well into your 200 - 300 ft , multi-hour dive, with a MAJOR deco obligation ? I'd be curious to see the gas calculations/requirements for your bailout gas, not to mention where all this bailout gas would be located....and the inconvienience of having to lug/tow all this bailout gas with you during the dive....unless you're a caver and plant caches of tanks all over the place ?

....don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, I'm sure your big purchase was well-researched, and I hope you're happy with the new 'toys'........I guess my point is that the rebreather concept is cool, but the technology is just too complex/unreliable for me.

Karl

#35 PerroneFord

PerroneFord

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,303 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 December 2005 - 09:07 PM

I'll take a poke here, and rebreather guys forgive me for my gross generalizations an correct any mistakes.


Diving one kind of open circuit doesn't qualify you for another either. Just because you can dive a single, doesn't mean you can move straight to doubles. The concepts are similar, but the execution is different. Same with the rebreathers. How you purge the loop on one unit, is different than another. And like open circuit, just because you dive doubles, doesn't mean you are ready to do 300ft dives on trimix. Just because you can dive a kiss at 120ft, doesn't mean you can jump to a Meg at 250. Concepts are similar, execution different.

The bail out options are interesting too. The deco obligations seem to be GREATLY lessened because you are always diving an optimal mix with little nitrogen. Your oxygen window is always maximized. So you may be able to get away with just a simple stage bottle, and a planted bottle of O2.

I'm sure the rebreather guys will have more to add here. I'm shooting from the him somewhat, but it sounds good in theory! :lmao:

#36 ScubaDadMiami

ScubaDadMiami

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,022 posts
  • Location:Miami Beach, Florida
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:Course Director; CCR Instructor
  • Logged Dives:2000+

Posted 13 December 2005 - 12:36 PM

And what about that pony bottle you'd be carrying?? My instructor doesn't go in without one.


One of the benefits of the unit that I am purchasing, the Dive Rite Optima, is that, within recreational limits (down to about 100 feet and within shorter decompression profiles), the diver does not need to carry a separate bailout tank. Taking advantage of the Optima's 27 cubic foot tanks (many other rebreathers use 13 or 19 cubic foot tanks for a standard setup) the unit comes with a built in open circuit connection using a ScubaPro Air II alternate gas connection to the diluent tank. http://www.scubadivi..._air_sources/9/. This provides more than enough open circuit gas to get a diver to the surface from within these limits. Beyond these limits, the diver would have to carry a separate bailout bottle.

Further, even when a separate bailout is required, the diver can carry a smaller amount of gas than you might expect. A 40 cubic foot cylinder does nicely on the Optima until fairly deep (or for longer decos) because the diver can, again, also use the open circuit option in addition to the bailout bottle to get back from the farthest point in the dive.

So far, when compared to my standard open circuit setup of double 120s and two 40s, I am looking at saving about 40 to 60 pounds worth of gear on my back with this unit for a lot of my diving. SUWEEEET!


I'll take a poke here, and rebreather guys forgive me for my gross generalizations an correct any mistakes.


Diving one kind of open circuit doesn't qualify you for another either. Just because you can dive a single, doesn't mean you can move straight to doubles. The concepts are similar, but the execution is different. Same with the rebreathers. How you purge the loop on one unit, is different than another. And like open circuit, just because you dive doubles, doesn't mean you are ready to do 300ft dives on trimix. Just because you can dive a kiss at 120ft, doesn't mean you can jump to a Meg at 250. Concepts are similar, execution different.

The bail out options are interesting too. The deco obligations seem to be GREATLY lessened because you are always diving an optimal mix with little nitrogen. Your oxygen window is always maximized. So you may be able to get away with just a simple stage bottle, and a planted bottle of O2.

I'm sure the rebreather guys will have more to add here. I'm shooting from the him somewhat, but it sounds good in theory! :teeth:


This is correct. Also, to "cross over" from one unit to another requires less training time than it would to start from scratch, and there are courses specifically made for this purpose.
"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein

"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount

#37 normblitch

normblitch

    Everyone knows me

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 588 posts
  • Location:North FL
  • Gender:Male
  • Board Status:Ginnie Springs 12/17, Crystal River 12/18...
  • Cert Level:Cave
  • Logged Dives:522

Posted 13 December 2005 - 12:57 PM

Indeed...

I just found out that HIPPA prohibits release of Diving Accident Post Mortems...the only way they become public now is if they are requested during the discovery phace of a law suit...

Norm

I just ran across the Zac Jones incident in FLL on the Dive Accidents Forum...any new details to add??


I am awaiting the information, too. Unfortunately, there are all too many times where those of us that could learn from these incidents are not privy to the information that the Government discovers along the way.



#38 ScubaDadMiami

ScubaDadMiami

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,022 posts
  • Location:Miami Beach, Florida
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:Course Director; CCR Instructor
  • Logged Dives:2000+

Posted 13 December 2005 - 07:09 PM

I just ran across the Zac Jones incident in FLL on the Dive Accidents Forum...any new details to add??


http://www.divernet....1205jones.shtml
"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein

"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount

#39 normblitch

normblitch

    Everyone knows me

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 588 posts
  • Location:North FL
  • Gender:Male
  • Board Status:Ginnie Springs 12/17, Crystal River 12/18...
  • Cert Level:Cave
  • Logged Dives:522

Posted 14 December 2005 - 06:04 AM

Thanks....seems almost as mysterious as Eric's loss...

Sympathies to All...

Norm

I just ran across the Zac Jones incident in FLL on the Dive Accidents Forum...any new details to add??


http://www.divernet....1205jones.shtml



#40 ScubaDadMiami

ScubaDadMiami

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,022 posts
  • Location:Miami Beach, Florida
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:Course Director; CCR Instructor
  • Logged Dives:2000+

Posted 21 December 2005 - 02:09 AM

My Optima arrived!!! I took it home, and I have done the intial assembly. Looking good so far.

There was one change to the unit. It no longer comes with an Air II on the wing inflator for bailout. Instead, it comes with a Dive Rite second stage such as would be used on open circuit diving. The unit did not come with the second stage installed though.

Apparently, the diver can elect 1) to connect the second stage, using the unit's 27 cubic foot diluent tank for bailout during shallow dives, 2) not to connect the second stage, instead using offboard bailout from the outset, or 3) to connect the second stage, and then connect offboard gas to the unit via a low pressure hose connector such as would be used to connect a wing inflator. Under the third option, the diver can quickly switch to onboard bailout gas for just a few sanity breathes while taking a moment to connect the offboard gas to the unit, using that to finish the dive. One less second stage to deal with. Pretty slick!

I will check out more about these options with my instructor.

As soon as my buddy's unit arrives, and I am cleared by the doctor to return to diving, I will begin training. More to come . . . .

Edited by ScubaDadMiami, 21 December 2005 - 02:12 AM.

"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein

"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount

#41 normblitch

normblitch

    Everyone knows me

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 588 posts
  • Location:North FL
  • Gender:Male
  • Board Status:Ginnie Springs 12/17, Crystal River 12/18...
  • Cert Level:Cave
  • Logged Dives:522

Posted 21 December 2005 - 05:56 AM

What a WONDERFUL Christmas present!

I can tell from your musings already that you WILL be a "thoughtful & reverent CCR diver"

Happy Tinkering!!

Norm

My Optima arrived!!! I took it home, and I have done the intial assembly. Looking good so far.

There was one change to the unit. It no longer comes with an Air II on the wing inflator for bailout. Instead, it comes with a Dive Rite second stage such as would be used on open circuit diving. The unit did not come with the second stage installed though.

Apparently, the diver can elect 1) to connect the second stage, using the unit's 27 cubic foot diluent tank for bailout during shallow dives, 2) not to connect the second stage, instead using offboard bailout from the outset, or 3) to connect the second stage, and then connect offboard gas to the unit via a low pressure hose connector such as would be used to connect a wing inflator. Under the third option, the diver can quickly switch to onboard bailout gas for just a few sanity breathes while taking a moment to connect the offboard gas to the unit, using that to finish the dive. One less second stage to deal with. Pretty slick!

I will check out more about these options with my instructor.

As soon as my buddy's unit arrives, and I am cleared by the doctor to return to diving, I will begin training. More to come . . . .



#42 ScubaDadMiami

ScubaDadMiami

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,022 posts
  • Location:Miami Beach, Florida
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:Course Director; CCR Instructor
  • Logged Dives:2000+

Posted 22 January 2006 - 11:59 PM

Well, I have done two pool sessions and one ocean dive on my Optima rebreather. I am quite happy with the basic unit though there are a couple of minor things I will likely change over time (mostly dealing with low pressure hose lengths, etc.).

Regarding my personal performance, I think that I have set the world record for the worst student my instructor has ever taught. Not only have I made every mistake possible, I am willing to bet that I discovered a few that nobody else has ever done before! Here are some of the highlights (more like low-lights).

Among other things, I started off my first ocean dive under-weighted, and that made things pretty exhausting. I often had to resort to kicking just to keep from blowing up to the surface.

Gearing up, the boat captain helped clip on my bailout (emergency open circuit cylinder) bottle, somehow twisting things up. With so much to do, I didn't notice. My fault, I know. I should have checked if I could delpoy the bailout regulator after. I guess I was so concerned about rebreather related issues that I didn't check the bailout after it was connected.

Underwater, when we went to do our first drill, requiring bailout to open circuit, I was all over the place trying to sort out the mess and deploy my regulator. Of course, this distraction lead to me allowing my PPO2 (partial pressure of oxygen) to start to drop, giving my instructor the opportune moment to show up (Damn that Heads Up Display for giving it away!), yelling at me through the DSV (mouthpiece).

Once I finally sorted out the mess, it took forever to clip the tail of the bottle back onto my Armadillo sidemount setup (a way to attach bailout/emergency dive cylinders to the diver's side that is very streamlined). I didn't seem to have any problems doing this in the pool. However, in the ocean, I was a complete mess. Perhaps I need to lengthen the tail on my bailout bottle a bit more. Add this to the list of things to practice and adjust.

Because we are learning to fly our units manually (they can do everything automatically), we have been instructed to use a setpoint (PPO2 level) that is .2 lower than our actual target. Sounded easy enough. Of course, as it turns out, during the dive, right after I added some O2, our instructor chose that moment to lead us down, under a ledge on the wreck. Alert!: Hyperoxia! Vibrating mouthpiece! I bailout to my open circuit emergency cylinder, flush the loop with diluent gas in order to lower the PPO2, and get things back under control. Next time (there better not be a next time!), I will try flushing without bailing out. After all, it was just a momentary spike. Tuck that lesson into the memory bank.

On the second ocean dive, I added some weight. At least I could finally practice diving the unit without the additional stressor (and distraction) of being underweighted. I ask to just practice diving the unit to get more comfortable diving, maintaining proper buoyancy while also maintaining the PPO2 target setpoint while changing depths on the dive, without doing other drills. Request granted. Things get a little better.

Today, we practiced flooding and clearing the breathing loop in the pool. The flooding part came quite naturally to me. :cool1: Actually, we did the drill twice, and I was able to clear the loop pretty well. I was not graceful in carrying out this task. However, I was able to clear the loop without having it even gurgle after. In fact, after the dive was over, I checked, and I would say that there was about a half of a table spoon of water in the water trap in my canister, and there were perhaps four or five (or less) in the counterlung.

Flushing the unit with diluent gas is still a big challenge. Of course, the second I start to add gas, I start to ascend even if I try to vent from my mouth/nose. Today, I did a little better by incorporating hitting the exhaust valve and squeezing the counterlungs. Honestly, it still has not clicked for me on this one yet.

The HUD is an entity that is soooo easy for me to look past in my preoccupation with everything else. Once I do notice it, I have to get my mind used to interpreting the colors and calculating the number of blinks (it uses a little blinking light to signal your status).

I still have a lot to learn about the Hammerhead unit, the rebreather's dive computer system. I haven't used a computer in years (I am used to cutting tables). This will take some time.

Well, my gear is washed, my unit is put to bed, and I am tired. I am still glad I am doing this. I will get it . . . eventually.

Edited by ScubaDadMiami, 23 January 2006 - 12:03 AM.

"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein

"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount

#43 gcbryan

gcbryan

    Everyone knows me

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 777 posts
  • Location:Seattle
  • Gender:Male
  • Logged Dives:620

Posted 23 January 2006 - 01:43 AM

Well, I have done two pool sessions and one ocean dive on my Optima rebreather. I am quite happy with the basic unit though there are a couple of minor things I will likely change over time (mostly dealing with low pressure hose lengths, etc.).

Regarding my personal performance, I think that I have set the world record for the worst student my instructor has ever taught. Not only have I made every mistake possible, I am willing to bet that I discovered a few that nobody else has ever done before! Here are some of the highlights (more like low-lights).

Among other things, I started off my first ocean dive under-weighted, and that made things pretty exhausting. I often had to resort to kicking just to keep from blowing up to the surface.

Gearing up, the boat captain helped clip on my bailout (emergency open circuit cylinder) bottle, somehow twisting things up. With so much to do, I didn't notice. My fault, I know. I should have checked if I could delpoy the bailout regulator after. I guess I was so concerned about rebreather related issues that I didn't check the bailout after it was connected.

Underwater, when we went to do our first drill, requiring bailout to open circuit, I was all over the place trying to sort out the mess and deploy my regulator. Of course, this distraction lead to me allowing my PPO2 (partial pressure of oxygen) to start to drop, giving my instructor the opportune moment to show up (Damn that Heads Up Display for giving it away!), yelling at me through the DSV (mouthpiece).

Once I finally sorted out the mess, it took forever to clip the tail of the bottle back onto my Armadillo sidemount setup (a way to attach bailout/emergency dive cylinders to the diver's side that is very streamlined). I didn't seem to have any problems doing this in the pool. However, in the ocean, I was a complete mess. Perhaps I need to lengthen the tail on my bailout bottle a bit more. Add this to the list of things to practice and adjust.

Because we are learning to fly our units manually (they can do everything automatically), we have been instructed to use a setpoint (PPO2 level) that is .2 lower than our actual target. Sounded easy enough. Of course, as it turns out, during the dive, right after I added some O2, our instructor chose that moment to lead us down, under a ledge on the wreck. Alert!: Hyperoxia! Vibrating mouthpiece! I bailout to my open circuit emergency cylinder, flush the loop with diluent gas in order to lower the PPO2, and get things back under control. Next time (there better not be a next time!), I will try flushing without bailing out. After all, it was just a momentary spike. Tuck that lesson into the memory bank.

On the second ocean dive, I added some weight. At least I could finally practice diving the unit without the additional stressor (and distraction) of being underweighted. I ask to just practice diving the unit to get more comfortable diving, maintaining proper buoyancy while also maintaining the PPO2 target setpoint while changing depths on the dive, without doing other drills. Request granted. Things get a little better.

Today, we practiced flooding and clearing the breathing loop in the pool. The flooding part came quite naturally to me. :thankyou: Actually, we did the drill twice, and I was able to clear the loop pretty well. I was not graceful in carrying out this task. However, I was able to clear the loop without having it even gurgle after. In fact, after the dive was over, I checked, and I would say that there was about a half of a table spoon of water in the water trap in my canister, and there were perhaps four or five (or less) in the counterlung.

Flushing the unit with diluent gas is still a big challenge. Of course, the second I start to add gas, I start to ascend even if I try to vent from my mouth/nose. Today, I did a little better by incorporating hitting the exhaust valve and squeezing the counterlungs. Honestly, it still has not clicked for me on this one yet.

The HUD is an entity that is soooo easy for me to look past in my preoccupation with everything else. Once I do notice it, I have to get my mind used to interpreting the colors and calculating the number of blinks (it uses a little blinking light to signal your status).

I still have a lot to learn about the Hammerhead unit, the rebreather's dive computer system. I haven't used a computer in years (I am used to cutting tables). This will take some time.

Well, my gear is washed, my unit is put to bed, and I am tired. I am still glad I am doing this. I will get it . . . eventually.


What is the first thing that struck you as a difference (OC vs rebreather) when you first tried things out in the water? I've heard that the counterlung makes trim/buoyancy an issue initially. After than I can imagine just chasing the correct PPO2 level to be a lot of work.

Interesting review. Post more. :welcome:

#44 peterbj7

peterbj7

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,068 posts
  • Location:San Pedro (Belize) & Oxford (UK)
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:Instructor
  • Logged Dives:over 4000

Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:58 AM

Have you flooded it yet? I managed to do that on one of my training dives.

#45 ScubaDadMiami

ScubaDadMiami

    I spend too much time on line

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,022 posts
  • Location:Miami Beach, Florida
  • Gender:Male
  • Cert Level:Course Director; CCR Instructor
  • Logged Dives:2000+

Posted 23 January 2006 - 08:36 AM

What is the first thing that struck you as a difference (OC vs rebreather) when you first tried things out in the water? I've heard that the counterlung makes trim/buoyancy an issue initially. After than I can imagine just chasing the correct PPO2 level to be a lot of work.


Well, the first thing I noticed, even before getting into the water, was that it was quite a bit lighter than my double steel 120s. :welcome: The buoyancy thing is definitely a big issue. The Optima does not seem to have as big of a trim issue as I would have expected. It is so new to the market that I did not get word on this issue about the Optima; I had just heard that all rebreathers were very butt heavy.

The other thing is that I have developed muscle memory for where all of my gear was on my old rig. Now, I am hunting around for where everything is and where everything goes. There are more hoses and cables to deal with.

I would say that these are the two big issues at this point.


Have you flooded it yet? I managed to do that on one of my training dives.


Yes, that was the drill that we did twice in the pool yesterday. We would intentionally remove the DSV (mouthpiece) with it opened, count to three, then clear the loop of water. The second time, we counted to ten just to make sure we did a nice, full flood. The unit cleared the water extremely well.

I have not unintentionally flooded the unit while on a training dive . . . yet. :thankyou:

Edited by ScubaDadMiami, 23 January 2006 - 08:38 AM.

"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein

"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users