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Is there such a thing as a "New Age" man?


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#136 PerroneFord

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 11:41 AM

(please excuse the length)

Lets talk about that anger thing for a moment...

Traditional dating scenario:

Guy gets introduced to a girl through a friend, at a bar, whatever. Guy makes small talk while the woman makes up her mind as to whether this guy is worth her time. Lets assume she thinks the guy is cute or she'd go out on a date with him. They chat a bit more, he buys a couple of drinks, and before they part he asks for her number. They exchange numbers. He goes home, she goes home. When should he call? That night? Next day, a couple of days later. He's trying not to seem to eager, she's getting impatient. He calls the next afternoon. She would prefer he had called in the morning, but she wouldn't initate the conversation. They set up a date.

Our hero is supposed to pick her up at 7 for dinner and a movie. Being a gentleman, he shows up 10 minutes early. She makes him wait an hour while she "works on her hair". At 8:10 she walks out looking ravishing. He holds her door open she glares at him because he's just assialed her independence. She's 30, not 60. Dinner is a bit rushed because they were late for their reservation and showtime is looming. He picks up the check. First date protocol. Figure $20 each plus drinks. She gets her own door this time and he's feeling like the date is going south, because he's clearly upset her but she hasn't said anything. They get the tickes from the booth. $15 each, popcorn, drinks. She's picked the movie of course. He's bored out of his mind watching Brokeback Mountain but feigns interest. Takes her home, gets a "no contact" hug and a thank you. They talk a few times on the phone that week, but clearly they are not meant for each other. So they part ways.

Review:

Our hero was polite, cordial, timely, and tried to make her happy. For his trouble this week, he's not found the right girl for him, he's gotten the cold shoulder, he's spent just over $100, and now she is going to tell 20 of her closest friends that he was an ok guy, but pretty boring and insensitive. Two more weeks pass and this scenario gets played out twice more. Week 4, he speaks to a girl who happens to be a friend of the girl from week 1. But this time, when she gets home, she calls her girlfriend and tells her that the guy hit on her. Week 1 girl calls him back and tells him what a a**hole he is for hitting on her girlfriend. Of course the guy didn't know it. He thought he'd just met an attractive woman who might have some interest. She didn't say anything to him that would suggest otherwise.

Problem:

Our hero has spent $300-400 this month, has gotten brushed off, has now been talked about behind his back, has been cursed out on the phone from a girl who didn't give him the time of day, and is no nearer the relationship that he wants. For a guy trying to "put himself out there", this gets VERY old after a few months. So he takes up a hobby, and spends time with his buddies. Lets say he's taken up small time car racing with his buds. A few months pass. Week 1 girl calls out of the blue to see what he's been up to. After a few minutes, he offers that he's been dabbling in racing cars. She perks up and asks why he never mentioned he was into that kind of thing. He looks at the phone in disbelief. Did she really just say that? You're the same guy you were a few months ago, but now she's showing interest because you have some "exciting hobby". He gets off the phone as quickly as possible, angry that she could be that shallow. He never speaks to him again. She becomes angry that this guy has now blown her off, and he wasn't all that much to begin with.

The anger comes from both parties feeling like they were wronged. Years of this kind of behavior tends to temper us. We become less trustful. We become less apt to just jump in with both feet. Or even to initiate anything. In traditional dating roles, the burden both financial and emotional, falls to the guy. He is assuming the risk of rejection upon first meeting, first date, followup phone calls, etc. He is trying to be Mr. Right because if he lets his guard down, surely all will be lost.

*****

This is the game. I refuse to play it. My life is simple. I work, I coach. Sometimes I dress nicely. Sometimes I have on soccer shorts and a sweatshirt. I like to dive. You dive, great. You don't, no problem, I'll be back Sunday afternoon. You want to go on a date? Terrific. Meet me at the bar/club/resturant. Don't want to give me your number, no problem. I'm not your type? Ok, have a good life. It's not anger. Its a refusal to play a game I cannot possibly win. In fact, I can't even compete, because I don't have a copy of the rules. I would hazard a guess that many of the men here are also not angry, just aren't intetersted in playing these games. We want to share our lives with someone we can love. But we won't forced into some contrived shenanigans just to curry favor.

Nothing would make me more happy than to meet a nice woman with brains, goals, and looks, and have us hit it off. Actually, I have met someone like that. I'm taking it slow. Maybe she'll show some interest (some has been shown) and maybe I'm not her type. Time will tell. But she may be out of my league! :wavey:

#137 PerroneFord

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 11:48 AM

guess, I could also ask the question - why all of us true, honest down to earth women finish last..or don't finish at all ( as in ..never noticed etc.)



Hmmm,

From your public info on this site:

Interests - diving, pottery,gardening, hiking I am a volunteer firefighter

Diving - your avatar shows you diving alone
Pottery - Don't know too many men who care to spend time at the throwing wheel or kiln.
Gardening - Doesn't really attract many men, solo activity
Hiking - Fun, but also tends to be a solo activity, or very small groups.
Firefighter - Could meet some guys here, but dating where you work is usually a bad choice, and firefighters over 30 tend to be married from what I've seen.


Sounds like your hobbies and interests are essentially solo activities. Maybe that's why you're not noticed. I see your profile doesn't even show a picture of yourself. Kinda hard to garner interest on a "singe divers' site when no one knows what you look like.

#138 mantarraya

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:54 PM

(please excuse the length)

Lets talk about that anger thing for a moment...


Okay, here's one from one of my recent encounters.

I'm working in downtown and get done about 5 and don't want to fight traffic. I head to a restaurant, order a nice meal, and am flipping thru a Houston Press when this really great looking guy comes up and wants to join me as he is tired of eating by himself. I figure, why not? We finish our meal, having a mostly good conversation along the way (the mostly not good was when he talked about what he has done in his career, which was about as far from anything I would ever do in my life - really out-there stuff. I've run into people in his line of work in the jungles of Latin America, haunted people that have done really, really shitty things under the guise of patriotism). As I prepare to leave, he asks for my number and I give it to him, because I decide to give him the benefit of the doubt for now, despite my blue flags flying (we liberal types have blue rather than red flags). And, BTW, I paid for my own dinner despite his insistence to let him pay.

He calls the next evening, and we talk a long time. The conversation is pretty good except that at one point I told him that I didn't think the nice, sweet guy image he is trying to project to me is who is really is. He gets all freaky-deak about that statement, and I'm kind of "whoa". Blue flags waving again. I should have cut it off right then, we do end up talking by phone a few more times before I agree to meet him after work for another face-to-face. He keeps the freaky-deak stuff at minimum.

I purposely arrive early and get my club soda and lime so that he won't have to buy me a drink. At this encounter, he starts talking sex the minute he sits down. What he likes, what I like, what cup size are my breasts (hey buddy, you've been staring at them since you sat down, do you really need the specs?). After not too much of this, I say I've got to go. He walks me to my car and tries to talk me into going to his place where he claims he will rock my world and make my toes curl. If I come over, he'll "service" me and even keep his clothes on. I politely decline and leave. When I get home, I find he has called, and he has left a "sweet message" that he was sorry I didn't have time to go to his place, and he can't wait to see me again. I send him an email that I'm not feeling it. I kept it as anti-inflammatory as possible He fires me an EXTREMELY shitty and insulting email about how I had a huge ego, made him feel like @!&% by telling him I went out with younger guys [I did tell him that when he asked me what type of guys I had been out with lately - one was 8 yrs younger, one 2 years older than me, but both younger than him]. I did not and will not reply.

Am I angry at him? No. Do I think he is a louse? Probably, and at least to me. Do I think all other guys are louses? No. Will I still play the game? Absolutely. You don't win the lottery without buying the ticket.

Edited by lgrahamtx, 23 February 2006 - 01:11 PM.

Back after a long absence - whew, too busy at work!

#139 finley

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:20 PM

guess, I could also ask the question - why all of us true, honest down to earth women finish last..or don't finish at all ( as in ..never noticed etc.)



Hmmm,

From your public info on this site:

Interests - diving, pottery,gardening, hiking I am a volunteer firefighter

Diving - your avatar shows you diving alone
Pottery - Don't know too many men who care to spend time at the throwing wheel or kiln.
Gardening - Doesn't really attract many men, solo activity
Hiking - Fun, but also tends to be a solo activity, or very small groups.
Firefighter - Could meet some guys here, but dating where you work is usually a bad choice, and firefighters over 30 tend to be married from what I've seen.


Sounds like your hobbies and interests are essentially solo activities. Maybe that's why you're not noticed. I see your profile doesn't even show a picture of yourself. Kinda hard to garner interest on a "singe divers' site when no one knows what you look like.

hmm...this isn't a dating site...right...so if we're going diving...guess..all the above doesn't matter...but seriously you are right...but I do what I enjoy..don't do any of them "to meet men" especially the fire dept. they are very apt at determining quickly why a woman is there...I am there to fight fire and do rescues...NOT to meet men.....don't know what I should do to "meet someone" that's why I said earlier...my "prince" needs to have some serious ESP going on to find my front door. :lmao:

and PS...I wasn't diving alone..never dive alone not NEAR good enough to dive alone...

Edited by finley, 23 February 2006 - 01:31 PM.

who's leading this parade anyway?

#140 drbill

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:29 PM

Hmmm... PerroneFord's example guy was out $300-400 in a month by playing the dating game. This is an excellent reminder of how lucky I am in not playing that. That would pay for 2-3 dive trips over the course of a year (heck, I only spent $4,500 on a 3-month backpacking diving trip through SE Asia/Australia-NZ/South Pacific), or all the dive gear I'd ever need, or maybe even an HD camcorder for my business. And those assets or memories will stick with me for years to come. Now I understand my priorities better.

#141 mantarraya

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:37 PM

Hmmm... PerroneFord's example guy was out $300-400 in a month by playing the dating game. This is an excellent reminder of how lucky I am in not playing that.


Yeah, the money thing is a big reason why I don't like guys spending their money on me. I make a very nice salary and can buy my own drinks and dinner, thank you, esp at first. I can fully understand why guys get angry about that, and why they don't want to keep doing it. But not all women require a man with lots of dough, or expect to have a lot of cash spent on them as part of the dating experience.

Edited by lgrahamtx, 23 February 2006 - 01:41 PM.

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#142 finley

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:56 PM

Hmmm... PerroneFord's example guy was out $300-400 in a month by playing the dating game. This is an excellent reminder of how lucky I am in not playing that.


Yeah, the money thing is a big reason why I don't like guys spending their money on me. I make a very nice salary and can buy my own drinks and dinner, thank you, esp at first. I can fully understand why guys get angry about that, and why they don't want to keep doing it. But not all women require a man with lots of dough, or expect to have a lot of cash spent on them as part of the dating experience.

guess I didn't read that far back....see...all of this is so hard....and I get weary...its much easier just to call friends-male and female- and go to dinner or a concert...I filled the ice chest you grab some food...I'll meet you there...or 7:30 see you there Its my treat...why is it significantly harder with opposite sex people that are interested in romantic involvement...
who's leading this parade anyway?

#143 mantarraya

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:05 PM

why is it significantly harder with opposite sex people that are interested in romantic involvement...


I just don't know. I just told my story to show that it is not all about the money thing. That guy did not spend a penny on me, so he had no reason to be shitty to me other than the fact I told him I was not interested. All that was lost was a little of his time ( I guess he counted the phone conversations as "dates", so we had passed the 3-date rule threshold). And BTW, when did this whole 3-date rule thing come about? Seems to be a pretty standard expectation now that the gal has to put out on or before the 3rd date, ESP if money was involved.
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#144 finley

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:37 PM

why is it significantly harder with opposite sex people that are interested in romantic involvement...


I just don't know. I just told my story to show that it is not all about the money thing. That guy did not spend a penny on me, so he had no reason to be shitty to me other than the fact I told him I was not interested. All that was lost was a little of his time ( I guess he counted the phone conversations as "dates", so we had passed the 3-date rule threshold). And BTW, when did this whole 3-date rule thing come about? Seems to be a pretty standard expectation now that the gal has to put out on or before the 3rd date, ESP if money was involved.

I don't know :lmao: there seems to be rules I never even knew about... I just want to wait long enough that I feel comfortably sure who I am having sex with and that if I thimk I am "making love" that its close to that...takes more than 3 dates...before that it's sex ....and you know guys like that one you discussed is why I only give out cell # ( you can block them and my kids don't answer it) and have a "special email" that I do not use for business etc....so I can cancel it if someone is too persistent...but...damn, I don't even attract the weirdos :P
who's leading this parade anyway?

#145 PerroneFord

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:56 PM

Yeah, the money thing is a big reason why I don't like guys spending their money on me. I make a very nice salary and can buy my own drinks and dinner, thank you, esp at first. I can fully understand why guys get angry about that, and why they don't want to keep doing it. But not all women require a man with lots of dough, or expect to have a lot of cash spent on them as part of the dating experience.



You see, it's NOT all about the idea of "spending a lot of money" on someone. I don't think it's outrageous to spend $30-50 on a date. If you go over a friends house for a game and get pizzas and beer, you'll spend nearly the same thing. The problem is that for many men, women seem to expect men to "take them out" in the traditional manner. So a nice gentleman who is "putting himself out there" as it is purported nice guys don't do, is looking at spending several hundred dollars per month for the privlege of being turned down, only to see those same women who claim they are looking for nice guys, end up with rogue types.

It's maddening when you try to do all the right things and treat women respectfully, and then watch them end up with a man who is known to abuse women, or treats them poorly. You buy her roses, he won't buy her a bucket of popcorn, but she likes him better. You treat her to the salon, he stands her up so he can go ride his Harley with his buddies.. but she likes him because he's "edgy and cute". And then we wonder why nice guys become not-so-nice after a few years of that.

I must say, I have been pleasantly surprised recently at how few dates I've had have actually wanted me to spend a lot of money. Only one person in the past 2 years has expected this and she wasn't worth me buying a beer for. Maybe things are changing.

#146 drbill

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:20 PM

Seems to be a pretty standard expectation now that the gal has to put out on or before the 3rd date, ESP if money was involved.


Hmmm... I don't ever EXPECT a woman to put out no matter what date we are on. Of course I might like them to! I try to establish a "situation" where the woman desires it and have her come back to initiate!

Gee, I haven't had a third date in years. That's $150-300 invested!

#147 Trimix2dive

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 05:07 PM

$300 - 400 a month. Buddy, you could rent misses right a couple a times a month for that. And not have to worry about her having some type of attitude problem.

LOL

#148 PerroneFord

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 05:11 PM

$300 - 400 a month. Buddy, you could rent misses right a couple a times a month for that. And not have to worry about her having some type of attitude problem.


I'd have to worry about OTHER things, but true. And I'd at least get a hug and kiss goodnight...

#149 mantarraya

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 08:13 PM

$300 - 400 a month. Buddy, you could rent misses right a couple a times a month for that. And not have to worry about her having some type of attitude problem.

LOL


Just don't let the single non-professional gals that is what you're doing with your cash on those down months. Big turn-off!
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#150 Twinklez

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 08:16 PM

Traditional dating scenario:
...When should he call? That night? Next day, a couple of days later. He's trying not to seem to eager, she's getting impatient. He calls the next afternoon. She would prefer he had called in the morning, but she wouldn't initate the conversation. They set up a date....


Perrone, go back and read this post from earlier in this same thread. The first part probably falls into the "out of my league" stuff, but in the middle of my comments you'll find that women do much the same dance about who should call who, and when. Then, read the post you made that right after that. Our concerns seem very similar, but when I expressed them assumptions were made about my intentions that are apparently different from yours

... Being a gentleman, he shows up 10 minutes early. She makes him wait an hour while she "works on her hair". At 8:10 she walks out looking ravishing. He holds her door open she glares at him because he's just assialed her independence. She's 30, not 60. Dinner is a bit rushed because they were late for their reservation and showtime is looming. He picks up the check. First date protocol. Figure $20 each plus drinks. ... She's picked the movie of course. He's bored out of his mind watching Brokeback Mountain but feigns interest. Takes her home, gets a "no contact" hug and a thank you. ... but clearly they are not meant for each other.


Ok, you're prompt, she's late - so what! You're different; that's all. She wanted to look nice for you - take at face value. Now the door thing says to me that maybe you're looking in the wrong place for women. If you like to treat them like a lady, and they don't want to be treated that way; you're definately choosing the wrong candidate. First date protocol??? What's that? Pick me up or meet me somewhere and let's have some fun. Why does must there be established rules and expectations? Let her pick the movie...bad mistake on both your parts. You should agree on a movie both will like otherwise you're setting yourselves up for instant failure...someone will definately be bored and the other will feel bad because of it. The hug...I've given a no contact hug before and a thank you, and it didn't mean I wasn't interested - just not ready for anything more at the time.

Our hero was polite, cordial, timely, and tried to make her happy. For his trouble this week, he's not found the right girl for him, he's gotten the cold shoulder, he's spent just over $100, and now she is going to tell 20 of her closest friends that he was an ok guy, but pretty boring and insensitive. ...


For his trouble???? If it's trouble you should have never done it to start with! I certainly don't want to be anyone's trouble. If a man wants to take me out and show me a good time, great! I hope he's doing it because he likes to see the smile on my face and my eyes sparkle when we're having fun.

Again, you're picker is all messed up if you're picking women that go back and gossip with their 20 friends about this "just ok" guy, AND THEN YOU DATE ANOTHER FROM THE SAME POOL.

... Week 1 girl calls out of the blue to see what he's been up to. After a few minutes, he offers that he's been dabbling in racing cars. She perks up and asks why he never mentioned he was into that kind of thing. He looks at the phone in disbelief. Did she really just say that? You're the same guy you were a few months ago, but now she's showing interest because you have some "exciting hobby". He gets off the phone as quickly as possible, angry that she could be that shallow. ...


Ok...so you didn't have the same feelings in common about the movie. Maybe she really does like cars. But maybe she just wanted another dinner. You made an assumption that she was shallow because she's now showing interest. Sometimes it takes awhile to know if a person is someone you'll enjoy being around. It sounds like she hadn't given up...but you blew her off just when you might have seen a completely different side of her. Granted you have to take into consideration the gossip and her cursing you for asking her friend out. I wasn't there...you were.

... In traditional dating roles, the burden both financial and emotional, falls to the guy. He is assuming the risk of rejection upon first meeting, first date, followup phone calls, etc. He is trying to be Mr. Right because if he lets his guard down, surely all will be lost.


I agree traditionally the financial burden falls on the man when it comes to dating; but emotionally women share equally. Yes, a man fears rejection and feels rejection; but a woman fears and feels it too when she's never even asked out to start with. In today's world, it's supposed to be acceptable for a woman to call a man, but I've tried that...and my results haven't been any better than sitting and waiting for him to call me. I'm still single and still without a date.

This is the game. I refuse to play it. My life is simple. I work, I coach. Sometimes I dress nicely. Sometimes I have on soccer shorts and a sweatshirt. I like to dive. You dive, great. You don't, no problem, I'll be back Sunday afternoon. You want to go on a date? Terrific. Meet me at the bar/club/resturant. Don't want to give me your number, no problem. I'm not your type? Ok, have a good life. .... We want to share our lives with someone we can love. But we won't forced into some contrived shenanigans just to curry favor.


It's not a game - it's life. In any case, the Perrone you just described - that's the Perrone I would want to meet. Nothing special, no expectations, no rules...just Perrone. And if that Perrone also liked me just the way I am, and liked treating me like a lady...wow...that would be heaven!

Nothing would make me more happy than to meet a nice woman with brains, goals, and looks, and have us hit it off.


The list.....she has to have.....blah blah blah! Why not just ditch the list of must haves, and just enjoyfriendship with all the women you meet, culling those that are on your deal breaker list? You might be surprised at who you meet.




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