44 replies to this topic

[6Gill]

I'd like to see the word advance taken out of the advance openwater.Maybe calling it open water 2,or calling open water intro to diving and whats now known as advance openwater as basic or general openwater.This might help reinforce that the diver is still in a learning stage.By having the word advance it allows stores to market it as such,I see a lot of places refere to the class as an advance course and not as an advance openwater class...if I was cynical I'd say this was a well thought out marketing idea.

Eric

[Trimix2dive]

I would like maximum input from the newly certified and the instructors. For I am delving into the "instructor" category as of this weekend. My class work and jedi training start next weekend.

The reason I started this thread is I had an opportunity to set in on a feedback session, on an Instructor who I know. A small group of recent students is ask to come back and give evaluation of the class and instructor to help improve both. The one thing that each said in their own way is they expected more, or that it would be more difficult or challangeing. The couldn't put their finger exactly on what "it" was, but they felt a little short changed somehow.

Edited by Trimix2dive, 12 February 2006 - 06:04 PM.

[Twinklez]

I would like maximum input from the newly certified and the instructors. For I am delving into the "instructor" category as of this weekend. My class work and jedi training start next weekend.

The reason I started this thread is I had an opportunity to set in on a feedback session, on an Instructor who I know. A small group of recent students is ask to come back and give evaluation of the class and instructor to help improve both. The one thing that each said in their own way is they expected more, or that it would be more difficult or challangeing. The couldn't put their finger exactly on what "it" was, but they felt a little short changed somehow.

I think I could say that's how I felt when I finished my OW as well. For me personally, OW was quite an accomplishment due to the lack of swimming skills initially. Upon finishing the class I was almost afraid to venture out into the world of diving without the folks from my LDS because I realized how really little I actually knew. I was amazed at the number of people who were going straight from class to some tropical setting to dive in the ocean. Then...I took AOW, and I really felt cheated! I agree with Eric about taking the "Advanced" word out of that class; it's simply an introduction to some advanced types of diving but typically not introduced in any kind of advanced setting. The diver is not advanced upon completion; only logging dive after dive and continued training will do that.

[Capn Jack]

I'd like to see the word advance taken out of the advance openwater.Maybe calling it open water 2,or calling open water intro to diving and whats now known as advance openwater as basic or general openwater.

I totally agree. This is probably heresy for me to say, but I think it is misleading to give the new grad the impression that they are now an "advanced" diver. It is even reinforced by some operators who specify only AOW divers are allowed to dive with them. Your brief excursion to 60+ feet, and doing a simple nav doesn't go too far in making you a deep diver or a skilled navigator. IMHO, operators should look for x number of dives, or recent experience in similar environments to screen their customers.

It is more accurate to say they have completed both parts of the basic OW syllabus. The first deals with fundamental control skills, and the second deals with sampling parts of the diving environment. The PADI label of "Master Diver" is probably a closer portrayal of an "advanced" diver, but again the choice of terms troubles me. If for no other reason than the confusion with DM.

mi dos psi

[ScubaDadMiami]

I'd like to see the word advance taken out of the advance openwater.Maybe calling it open water 2,or calling open water intro to diving and whats now known as advance openwater as basic or general openwater.

I totally agree. This is probably heresy for me to say, but I think it is misleading to give the new grad the impression that they are now an "advanced" diver. It is even reinforced by some operators who specify only AOW divers are allowed to dive with them. Your brief excursion to 60+ feet, and doing a simple nav doesn't go too far in making you a deep diver or a skilled navigator. IMHO, operators should look for x number of dives, or recent experience in similar environments to screen their customers.

It is more accurate to say they have completed both parts of the basic OW syllabus. The first deals with fundamental control skills, and the second deals with sampling parts of the diving environment. The PADI label of "Master Diver" is probably a closer portrayal of an "advanced" diver, but again the choice of terms troubles me. If for no other reason than the confusion with DM.

mi dos psi

This was exactly the way NAUI used to do it. Open Water I, Open Water II, Advanced (now Master Scuba Diver). The problem was that other agencies termed it as it is now. So, people would call saying that they wanted "advanced" certification when they were really looking for OWII.

In the end, NAUI elected to go with standard verbage of most other agencies so that the same terms would mean the same thing. This being said, I agree with your opinion about the course labels. This is why I suggested eliminating most of them, making a true comprehensive basic education, calling this "Scuba Diver."

[CaptSaaz]

I think alot falls back on the instructor in that, my instructor considered the Basic OW certification a certification to lean to dive. And I can now see what he means by that. Too many people come out with their BOW thinking they are a diver... ummm NOT. I got my AOW with 60 dives under my belt and my instructor considered me an exception, not the rule as far as northeast diving goes. My buddy for our final checkout dive did what the book and instructior asked and passed but he was nowhere near as comfortable in the water as I was.

As far as relaxing the requirements for a BOW, this has developed over the years as equipment and teaching has refined, and what is nescessary to basic dive. Also money is involved here no matter what you believe.

My first dive was actually a Discover Scuba course and now, having my OW and AOW, I consider that course borderline dangerous. They give you enough information to go down, breathe, clear mask, etc but I can see how easily you could hurt yourself without a full understanding of the risks inherent in diving.

Just my rambling two cents.

[intotheblue]

I'd like to see the word advance taken out of the advance openwater.Maybe calling it open water 2,or calling open water intro to diving and whats now known as advance openwater as basic or general openwater.

I totally agree. This is probably heresy for me to say, but I think it is misleading to give the new grad the impression that they are now an "advanced" diver. It is even reinforced by some operators who specify only AOW divers are allowed to dive with them. Your brief excursion to 60+ feet, and doing a simple nav doesn't go too far in making you a deep diver or a skilled navigator. IMHO, operators should look for x number of dives, or recent experience in similar environments to screen their customers.

It is more accurate to say they have completed both parts of the basic OW syllabus. The first deals with fundamental control skills, and the second deals with sampling parts of the diving environment. The PADI label of "Master Diver" is probably a closer portrayal of an "advanced" diver, but again the choice of terms troubles me. If for no other reason than the confusion with DM.

mi dos psi

This was exactly the way NAUI used to do it. Open Water I, Open Water II, Advanced (now Master Scuba Diver). The problem was that other agencies termed it as it is now. So, people would call saying that they wanted "advanced" certification when they were really looking for OWII.

In the end, NAUI elected to go with standard verbage of most other agencies so that the same terms would mean the same thing. This being said, I agree with your opinion about the course labels. This is why I suggested eliminating most of them, making a true comprehensive basic education, calling this "Scuba Diver."

Well, it is called Advanced OPEN WATER course, not an Advanced Diver course. Of course much of any course "title" is the perception desired by the marketing put forth by the agency. It's really up to the instructor to make the value of the course what the student needs and expects. Some are only interested in pushing numbers through the doors. Some are interested in really teaching. I was interested in both, but you will be amazed at the number of students that only want the card for their wallet so they can go to Cozumel and jump off a boat (into a "downwelling-type current" and not know what to do there).

The big problem is the number of operators that will take these minimally certified divers into the water because they have so many boats and employees to keep on staff. They play the averages and take people that have no business in those conditions to places they should not go. It's a fairly complicated issue that can only really be dealt with by the dive shop or instructor when first selling the course, or at the latest by the Instructor when that student walks into that first class. Some of the first words a new prospective student should hear is that the Basic or O/W course is not a final destination, but a launching pad from which they will really begin their learning process. Their completion of the first step will leave them prepared to dive only in the conditions similar to or better than those in which they are trained, but prepare them to take more "advanced" training to further refine and hone their skills and knowledge. They should hear that they should be planning on taking additional training to do that... and know what that would take before they ever start the first course. I know the PADI Video used to say this early on, and I suspect it still does. However, the prospective student should know this before money changes hands (IMHO).

My guess though is that few students would realize this is all worth their time and money and effort (if they thought a dive operator would actually refuse them) and that they would leave the shop/instructor and look for an easier way or simply give up altogether.

When I was teaching classes, I marketed that people should take my "more expensive" course for the "value added" that I put into them. I would rather teach fewer people that really wanted to learn than larger numbers of people that kept looking at their watches. Of course I would have really rather taught large numbers of people that really wanted to learn!

There was an "ADVANCED PLUS" certification course introduced, but I have seen few interested in getting that extra level. Just gimme the dadgummed card... It's not until most O/W divers do more dives past the O/W course that they realize how much more they should have learned or how much more they would have liked to have been taught.

ITB...

[drbill]

I like SSI's approach to the c-cards based on the number of logged dives. You can get a different card as you pass each threshhold number (I'm working on the 2,500 level... still a little ways to go). Although the number of dives doesn't necessary give someone else an adequate assessment of skills level, at least it shows relative experience.

For a diver to be able to achieve AOW with so few (is it 10?) dives is patently absurd IMHO. I was only BOW certified for my first 40 years of diving, although it was from LAC which was the equivalent of the AOW (and some of Rescue Diver) level today.

Edited by drbill, 13 February 2006 - 10:15 AM.

[6Gill]

Well, it is called Advanced OPEN WATER course, not an Advanced Diver course. Of course much of any course "title" is the perception desired by the marketing put forth by the agency. It's really up to the instructor to make the value of the course what the student needs and expects. Some are only interested in pushing numbers through the doors. Some are interested in really teaching. I was interested in both, but you will be amazed at the number of students that only want the card for their wallet so they can go to Cozumel and jump off a boat (into a "downwelling-type current" and not know what to do there).

The big problem is the number of operators that will take these minimally certified divers into the water because they have so many boats and employees to keep on staff. They play the averages and take people that have no business in those conditions to places they should not go. It's a fairly complicated issue that can only really be dealt with by the dive shop or instructor when first selling the course, or at the latest by the Instructor when that student walks into that first class. Some of the first words a new prospective student should hear is that the Basic or O/W course is not a final destination, but a launching pad from which they will really begin their learning process. Their completion of the first step will leave them prepared to dive only in the conditions similar to or better than those in which they are trained, but prepare them to take more "advanced" training to further refine and hone their skills and knowledge. They should hear that they should be planning on taking additional training to do that... and know what that would take before they ever start the first course. I know the PADI Video used to say this early on, and I suspect it still does. However, the prospective student should know this before money changes hands (IMHO).

My guess though is that few students would realize this is all worth their time and money and effort (if they thought a dive operator would actually refuse them) and that they would leave the shop/instructor and look for an easier way or simply give up altogether.

When I was teaching classes, I marketed that people should take my "more expensive" course for the "value added" that I put into them. I would rather teach fewer people that really wanted to learn than larger numbers of people that kept looking at their watches. Of course I would have really rather taught large numbers of people that really wanted to learn!

There was an "ADVANCED PLUS" certification course introduced, but I have seen few interested in getting that extra level. Just gimme the dadgummed card... It's not until most O/W divers do more dives past the O/W course that they realize how much more they should have learned or how much more they would have liked to have been taught.

ITB...

ITB,
The problem with the word advance in the title is everytime the cert level is discussed it's abreviated to just plain advance(even seen stores market it as an advance course leaving out the open water part).CMAS uses a star system,BSAC keeps it pretty simple and in the old days it was just numbered.The use of the word advance,advance plus or master diver are all for marketing purposes selling the couse to people more into card collecting.
As to the operators taking people out how do I tell one of your AOW students from someone else?
I agree that most people trying diving are more intrested in bragging rights to non-diving friends(how many times have you been introduced to another 'diver' who shuts up very quickly when they realized you are a real diver).
In these day and age of a flooded market with instuctors anyone can get a cert if they look around and the other problem is instuctors/stores pushing fluff courses.Or a student takes a course gets a card and is left thinking 'now why did I just spend this money' I could have read the book and learned just as much.
Please note there are good instuctors out there but sadly they are the minority and I place the blame directly at the training agencies.If you know of some in your area be sure to send people their way and pre-educate them in why not all instructors(even if they hold the same card) are equal

Eric

[Trimix2dive]

In these day and age of a flooded market with instuctors anyone can get a cert if they look around and the other problem is instuctors/stores pushing fluff courses.Or a student takes a course gets a card and is left thinking 'now why did I just spend this money' I could have read the book and learned just as much.
Please note there are good instuctors out there but sadly they are the minority and I place the blame directly at the training agencies. If you know of some in your area be sure to send people their way and pre-educate them in why not all instructors(even if they hold the same card) are equal.

But I agree strongly with the fluff courses, most of which should all be combined in a "level 2". After a few days with it, I think it was the lack of demand of content and time in pool solely on skills - and not just diving. The comments were not directed toward the instructor it was directed toward the class profile structure.

I see it broke down to have any meaning as

Level 1 - resort course (bare basics) - more advanced that current (with depth to 60 ft)
Level 2 - Scuba I (OW & AOW) - and ya it would cost more. (depth to 130)
Level 3 (optional) - Scuba II (5 specialities - 10 dives each (supervised and / or unsupervised))
Level 4 - Rescue
Then on from there.

Opinion?

[intotheblue]

I like SSI's approach to the c-cards based on the number of logged dives. You can get a different card as you pass each threshhold number (I'm working on the 2,500 level... still a little ways to go). Although the number of dives doesn't necessary give someone else an adequate assessment of skills level, at least it shows relative experience.

For a diver to be able to achieve AOW with so few (is it 10?) dives is patently absurd IMHO. I was only BOW certified for my first 40 years of diving, although it was from LAC which was the equivalent of the AOW (and some of Rescue Diver) level today.

Not to wave the PADI flag... but they have vanity cards too... Actually, I appreciate the recognition factor for a long history of diving and surviving... Congrats on the 2500. I wonder how much it costs to have all my cards re-issued...? Can ya spell "ka-ching$$$$"?

[intotheblue]

ITB,

As to the operators taking people out how do I tell one of your AOW students from someone else?


Eric

Eric, you are preaching to the choir... , but you will know them by their fruit...

Every system has its flaws. It's up to the instructors to make sure the system works at its best! (IMHO)

There's always a way to manipulate a system if you find the willing parties.

ITB...

[6Gill]

In these day and age of a flooded market with instuctors anyone can get a cert if they look around and the other problem is instuctors/stores pushing fluff courses.Or a student takes a course gets a card and is left thinking 'now why did I just spend this money' I could have read the book and learned just as much.
Please note there are good instuctors out there but sadly they are the minority and I place the blame directly at the training agencies. If you know of some in your area be sure to send people their way and pre-educate them in why not all instructors(even if they hold the same card) are equal.


Oops screwed up the quote thing. But I agree strongly with the fluff courses, most of which should all be combined in a "level 2". After a few days with it, I think it was the lack of demand of content and time in pool solely on skills - and not just diving. The comments were not directed toward the instructor it was directed toward the class profile structure.

I see it broke down to have any meaning as

Level 1 - resort course (bare basics) - more advanced that current (with depth to 60 ft)
Level 2 - Scuba I (OW & AOW) - and ya it would cost more. (depth to 130)
Level 3 (optional) - Scuba II (5 specialities - 10 dives each (supervised and / or unsupervised))
Level 4 - Rescue
Then on from there.

Opinion?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...
On paper most of the OW courses out there sound good and I bet most of the founders didn't envision the direction the industry would go.On the whole I find the course standereds good but saying what is required and making sure the bar stays there are two different stories

ITB,

As to the operators taking people out how do I tell one of your AOW students from someone else?


Eric

Every system has its flaws. It's up to the instructors to make sure the system works at its best! (IMHO)


ITB...

Sad part is I see an instuctor cert on the boat and unless I know the person or someone vouches for 'em they're not doing anything the least bit challanging.Having seen such a wide range of skill level that the card has a pretty low minimum standered.
I belive that it is up to the instuctor to do a good job but it is the training agency's to make sure the system works and to do more to help promote the good to excellent instuctors and remove those that are poor.

Eric

[intotheblue]

In these day and age of a flooded market with instuctors anyone can get a cert if they look around and the other problem is instuctors/stores pushing fluff courses.Or a student takes a course gets a card and is left thinking 'now why did I just spend this money' I could have read the book and learned just as much.
Please note there are good instuctors out there but sadly they are the minority and I place the blame directly at the training agencies. If you know of some in your area be sure to send people their way and pre-educate them in why not all instructors(even if they hold the same card) are equal.


Oops screwed up the quote thing. But I agree strongly with the fluff courses, most of which should all be combined in a "level 2". After a few days with it, I think it was the lack of demand of content and time in pool solely on skills - and not just diving. The comments were not directed toward the instructor it was directed toward the class profile structure.

I see it broke down to have any meaning as

Level 1 - resort course (bare basics) - more advanced that current (with depth to 60 ft)
Level 2 - Scuba I (OW & AOW) - and ya it would cost more. (depth to 130)
Level 3 (optional) - Scuba II (5 specialities - 10 dives each (supervised and / or unsupervised))
Level 4 - Rescue
Then on from there.

Opinion?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...
On paper most of the OW courses out there sound good and I bet most of the founders didn't envision the direction the industry would go.On the whole I find the course standereds good but saying what is required and making sure the bar stays there are two different stories

ITB,

As to the operators taking people out how do I tell one of your AOW students from someone else?


Eric

Every system has its flaws. It's up to the instructors to make sure the system works at its best! (IMHO)


ITB...

Sad part is I see an instuctor cert on the boat and unless I know the person or someone vouches for 'em they're not doing anything the least bit challanging.Having seen such a wide range of skill level that the card has a pretty low minimum standered.
I belive that it is up to the instuctor to do a good job but it is the training agency's to make sure the system works and to do more to help promote the good to excellent instuctors and remove those that are poor.

Eric

The agencies I teach for have QA/QC. It does take someone to report to them though, and most instructors won't do that. So, it comes down to student questionaires and complaints to pick out the chaff. Problem is, unless a student already knew how to dive and what to expect from a course, they wouldn't necessarily know what to tell QA/QC was wrong with their course.

Keep it up though... it takes concerned people in the industry to affect change. The way things were heading in the business is one of the major reasons I am "retired" from active teaching and more interested in mentoring.

Hopefully boards like this will provide a positive feedback from students and professionals, without flame throwing, that will help all continue the educational process in a positive manner. I am encouraged to see several people with interest in more "substantial" training. I just think it's not likely to happen unless you have a small agency that isn't "big" money motivated and is willing to market as the agency that doesn't want the masses, but wants people that want to really become good divers. LAC comes to mind, although I have no personal experience with them... but they are regional at best from my understanding. Maybe it will be GUE, but to be national or international in scope, there's so much pressure to become financially viable that standards will most assuredly fall to "the least common denominator". That is sad, but I fear true.

ITB...

[drdiver]

I think that OW should be more extensive. It should have a minimum of 20 hours of class room time, 20 to 30 hours of pool time and have 10 openwater dives. A course should take six weeks to complete at least. It should include nitrox training and should familiarize students with a broader variety of gear. I think the concept of advanced openwater should be eliminated. An O/W course should be the equivalent of a 3 hour semester college course in terms of time spent on the learning process.
Yes, this would mean fewer certs. But we would have more of those certs diving after certification. The present system churns people through and provides little incentive for them to continue with the activity. It is a cash cow for the store to sell mask, fins and snorkels to the students, not to produce a diver with an adequate skill set to be comfortable in the water. As Internet sales take away more business from local dive shops, we will continue to see a consolidation of the industry. As training becomes the only unique item that the store sells, some changes will result. If standards were increased in the manner I suggest, we would see more retail sales not less, because the students would be in the store more and be exposed to more equipment. They would also develop more personal relationships with store personnel and this would lead to more diving activity and more sales of trips, gear, and advanced training. If agencies have reduced standards they have done a disservice to the industry.