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OW should be made more indepth/extensive


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#31 annasea

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 07:05 PM

I think that OW should be more extensive. It should have a minimum of 20 hours of class room time, 20 to 30 hours of pool time and have 10 openwater dives. A course should take six weeks to complete at least. It should include nitrox training and should familiarize students with a broader variety of gear. I think the concept of advanced openwater should be eliminated. An O/W course should be the equivalent of a 3 hour semester college course in terms of time spent on the learning process.
Yes, this would mean fewer certs. But we would have more of those certs diving after certification. The present system churns people through and provides little incentive for them to continue with the activity. It is a cash cow for the store to sell mask, fins and snorkels to the students, not to produce a diver with an adequate skill set to be comfortable in the water. As Internet sales take away more business from local dive shops, we will continue to see a consolidation of the industry. As training becomes the only unique item that the store sells, some changes will result. If standards were increased in the manner I suggest, we would see more retail sales not less, because the students would be in the store more and be exposed to more equipment. They would also develop more personal relationships with store personnel and this would lead to more diving activity and more sales of trips, gear, and advanced training. If agencies have reduced standards they have done a disservice to the industry.


While this sounds wonderful in theory, I feel that it would eliminate/alienate plenty of curious people from dive training altogether. I can only speak for myself, of course, but at this stage, I may not necessarily have a *burning, all-consuming desire* to learn diving -- but I am genuinely interested and curious! :tears:

I'm not opposed to a 6 week course, but I wonder what the costs involved would be. Just because someone is interested in diving at the start, doesn't mean they'll continue to be after the course is over. They'd probably be hesitant to put down (for example) $1000+ for a course that may not amount to anything due to lack of interest afterward. But if people could take an *intro* course that would expose them to the necessary basics in terms of skills, safety and equipment, and wouldn't require an exorbitant sum (both money and time), I think they would be much more inclined to pursue diving with the potential for it to become a *burning desire*/passion/lifestyle/etc. :)

Another consideration are those that initially learn diving as an activity to do during their upcoming vacation. I sense an *attitude* from some regarding such people, but I view them in two ways:

1. Just because they are only able to dive once or twice a year, does it mean they should be viewed with contempt by lifestyle divers? Their interest may rival that of a lifestyle diver perhaps, but due to finances, responsibilities (children, aging parents, etc.), location, etc., their actual dive time is much less.

2. Just because they took their OW for a vacation or on a vacation, doesn't mean that a holiday pasttime won't one day turn into a lifelong passion.

My point here is had these people's only option been to take a rather costly, time consuming course, they may have overlooked diving altogether.

BTW, :diver: back, drdiver!










#32 6Gill

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 11:02 PM

While this sounds wonderful in theory, I feel that it would eliminate/alienate plenty of curious people from dive training altogether. I can only speak for myself, of course, but at this stage, I may not necessarily have a *burning, all-consuming desire* to learn diving -- but I am genuinely interested and curious! :tears:

I'm not opposed to a 6 week course, but I wonder what the costs involved would be. Just because someone is interested in diving at the start, doesn't mean they'll continue to be after the course is over. They'd probably be hesitant to put down (for example) $1000+ for a course that may not amount to anything due to lack of interest afterward. But if people could take an *intro* course that would expose them to the necessary basics in terms of skills, safety and equipment, and wouldn't require an exorbitant sum (both money and time), I think they would be much more inclined to pursue diving with the potential for it to become a *burning desire*/passion/lifestyle/etc. :)

Another consideration are those that initially learn diving as an activity to do during their upcoming vacation. I sense an *attitude* from some regarding such people, but I view them in two ways:

1. Just because they are only able to dive once or twice a year, does it mean they should be viewed with contempt by lifestyle divers? Their interest may rival that of a lifestyle diver perhaps, but due to finances, responsibilities (children, aging parents, etc.), location, etc., their actual dive time is much less.

2. Just because they took their OW for a vacation or on a vacation, doesn't mean that a holiday pasttime won't one day turn into a lifelong passion.

My point here is had these people's only option been to take a rather costly, time consuming course, they may have overlooked diving altogether.

BTW, :diver: back, drdiver!


I'm torn as it is easy to say we need better OW courses from my perspective now.Yet if I'm honest I have to say I started out with a PADI OW and AOW which at the time seem pretty complete(but later seeing how poorly it was taught) but I survived.As much as I'm a hero in the confines of my mind if I did it so can many others.
To me in an ideal world it wouldn't be the teaching facility that would issue an OW cert but an independent body.Then further education would come through clinic/workshops without chasing certs(people become more focused on doing whats needed to pass and not learning for its own sake).
I don't have an issue with people who only(for what ever reason)dive rarely but there are those(mostly male)that feel that no matter how long ago or even if diving in conditions they have no experiance they're ok to dive.Being certified 10 years ago does not equal 10 years experiance.
I have no issue diving with divers of all skill level but reserve the right to set limits which if for no other reason give me peace of mind.As I was/still am being mentored I try and do the same to those up and coming...I can't change the world but I try and make my little cornor a better place.
Who knows we might see a fundemental shift as the all in one stop scuba service shop disapears and we see more niche style operations.(you don't buy a car at drivers ed or get driving lesson from the dealership).
Now if you where lazy and just skipped to the end...in short I don't have any answers.

Eric

#33 finley

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 06:43 AM

my course had most of that...we were in the pool once a week, in the class once a week ( I know it was least 4 weeks cant remember if it was 6..it was a long time) the open water thing is it is just plain hard to come up with sometimes and depends on the weather in alot of areas of the country. My class provided ALL equipment which made it ALOT more affordable and also made the dm more vigilant about teaching care of the equipment. Its like college....we can read the books but until I do it over and over again and run into some problems that I have to handle...real learnng can't take place.
who's leading this parade anyway?

#34 mantarraya

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 07:48 AM

When I first got certified when I was 19 or so, it was part of a NAUI YMCA course in college. You weren't even allowed to take the scuba class unless you had passed the previous semester's lifesaving class (which was very memorable for me, as one of drills was to slide down your butt on one of the Galveston jetties on a cold spring day, then save the 200 lb plus body-builder type instructor - I passed by slamming him in the face hard when he tried to drown me). The scuba class was not nearly as physically tough, but it was a semester long, with tons of time in the water and the classroom. At the end of it you really felt prepared to dive.

I then got sidetracked from diving for many years, and when I got back into the sport, I decided to get re-certified by PADI as the equipment had gotten so advanced relative to the old horse collars and stuff I learned with. My daughter and her boyfriend came along to get certified for the first time. I was amazed how basic the class was. The classroom instruction was not good at all, and the pool time wasn't very good either. Even worse, the pool was about 90 degrees and full of piss from the kid's swim party held there the previous day (got a terrible ear infection). However, the absolute worst thing was that there was one guy in the class that literally could not swim across the pool or tread water without sinking. He had no body fat and no swimming background, and it was really terrifying to watch him try to tread water. He'd just roll over and start sinking. We had to pull him out twice. He couldn't even make it across the pool with fins and wet suit on. Unbelievably, he was passed on to finish the course, and was planning to head to Coz in 2 weeks with his diving girlfriend. I sure hope he made it okay, because it didn't look good to us. I ended up getting my daughter and boyfriend an open water referral in Belize for their final dives so that I could feel better about their skills after some time with a different instructor. They are good divers now but we still shake our heads remembering their training experience.

Edited by lgrahamtx, 17 February 2006 - 07:49 AM.

Back after a long absence - whew, too busy at work!

#35 intotheblue

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 08:20 AM

I'm torn as it is easy to say we need better OW courses from my perspective now.Yet if I'm honest I have to say I started out with a PADI OW and AOW which at the time seem pretty complete(but later seeing how poorly it was taught) but I survived.As much as I'm a hero in the confines of my mind if I did it so can many others.
To me in an ideal world it wouldn't be the teaching facility that would issue an OW cert but an independent body.Then further education would come through clinic/workshops without chasing certs(people become more focused on doing whats needed to pass and not learning for its own sake).
I don't have an issue with people who only(for what ever reason)dive rarely but there are those(mostly male)that feel that no matter how long ago or even if diving in conditions they have no experiance they're ok to dive.Being certified 10 years ago does not equal 10 years experiance.
I have no issue diving with divers of all skill level but reserve the right to set limits which if for no other reason give me peace of mind.As I was/still am being mentored I try and do the same to those up and coming...I can't change the world but I try and make my little cornor a better place.
Who knows we might see a fundemental shift as the all in one stop scuba service shop disapears and we see more niche style operations.(you don't buy a car at drivers ed or get driving lesson from the dealership).
Now if you where lazy and just skipped to the end...in short I don't have any answers.

Eric


I can see it now... The Texas (substitute your state) DSD (Department of SCUBA Diving). Sign up here and pay your money, take a written test, and set an appointment for your check-out dives to get your "license". No thanks... I'll take the system we "got", and do what I can to make people accountable within it. I would be interested in more extensive courses, but I don't believe the market will support that enough. People that want to learn more and that really "are divers" will take the continuing ed. Unfortunately, the others may go diving infrequently and be a lot more problem magnets when the do. However, I see more dive operators really checking log info and diving activity indicators (con-ed cards, etc) before they rent or sign out equipment or let people on the boats. I see more people asking about "refreshers" when they haven't been diving in awhile. Overall, I think the "private system" is more workable than any "big brother/government" attempt to "fix" it. Keep encouraging people about the training they need, the experience they should get, etc., every chance you get when they are starting out or taking other con-ed, then give them quality training, experience and fun, and you will see more divers perfoming at a higher skill level, with better judgement, and having more fun. "Fun" is the attraction of diving. Some people don't have fun if they have to "learn" anything. Let those that cannot see the fun in diving drop out for the well-being of the industry. Everyone is not meant to be a diver, just like I am not meant to be a skateboarder. That doesn't mean I've never been on a skateboard, just that I recognize I have insignificant interest to become proficient and safe at it (and alas... now too old to risk my neck at it). :)

Those of us that are eaten up by diving are the ones on these boards discussing how much more should be done in O/W classes and in Con-ed. Other divers are not nearly as interested. "We" have achieved a certain level of knowledge and ability and realize that often the "specialty courses" are not nearly as "deep" as we would like, but they are intended to stimulate interest in and saftey in different types of diving. The wreck diver course offered by O/W agencies does not qualify one to dive the Andrea Doria. Hopefully it's not represented anywhere as such. I tended to put alot more in my specialty courses than most people expected. While I have "cards" to teach many, many of those courses, I gravitated to only teaching the ones I really liked and I exposed my students to more information and in some cases, training, while making sure they realized the line between what they can do as a recreational diver and what they can only do as a "technical" diver. They knew the scope of my courses before we started. I never issued underwater star-gazing or basket weaving or other nebulous certs because I personally would have trouble taking money for teaching "nothing". Maybe someone could make those courses meaningful... I could not.

Keep up the interest in seeing training "improved" and stay within the agencies as much as possible to do it. With enough people moving the agencies in the right direction, training will improve too. Keep a watch on QA/QC and confront deficiencies, probably first with the "offender" and ultimately with their governing body if needed. Be careful pulling the log out of your brother's eye... and be willing to let your brother remove yours. The $1000 course actually exists... it's just $150+/- for O/W, $125+/- for AOW, $75+/- for buoyancy specialty, $150+/- for Deep, $95+/- for Night, etc... (all too low priced in my estimation) and in bite-sized pieces.

My "BASIC" course was 5 or 6 wks long ($69), and as I've said before, I learned enough in it to pass my instructor exams (for which I have thanked my original instructor many times since). I swam and swam... I ditched and donned. I breath hold swam/swum/swimmed until I was literally "blue" :banghead: in the face. I don't know too many people today that would consider that "FUN"... but it was to me... and might be to some of you. For an additional $25 and three dives, I got my O/W card, which seemed like "advanced" at the time.

All things to think about... while we keep our eyes on "improving" the sport and the industry.

IMHO...

:birthday:
"The most important thing is to never stop breathing"... ITB

Actually, the WORST day of diving is better than the BEST day at work... :)

and... my life is not measured by the number of breaths I take, but by the number of breaths I take UNDER WATER :)

"I see you are no stranger to pain." -- "I was married... TWICE!!!" HOT SHOTS, PART DEUX

#36 intotheblue

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 08:33 AM

When I first got certified when I was 19 or so, it was part of a NAUI YMCA course in college. You weren't even allowed to take the scuba class unless you had passed the previous semester's lifesaving class (which was very memorable for me, as one of drills was to slide down your butt on one of the Galveston jetties on a cold spring day, then save the 200 lb plus body-builder type instructor - I passed by slamming him in the face hard when he tried to drown me). The scuba class was not nearly as physically tough, but it was a semester long, with tons of time in the water and the classroom. At the end of it you really felt prepared to dive.

I then got sidetracked from diving for many years, and when I got back into the sport, I decided to get re-certified by PADI as the equipment had gotten so advanced relative to the old horse collars and stuff I learned with. My daughter and her boyfriend came along to get certified for the first time. I was amazed how basic the class was. The classroom instruction was not good at all, and the pool time wasn't very good either. Even worse, the pool was about 90 degrees and full of piss from the kid's swim party held there the previous day (got a terrible ear infection). However, the absolute worst thing was that there was one guy in the class that literally could not swim across the pool or tread water without sinking. He had no body fat and no swimming background, and it was really terrifying to watch him try to tread water. He'd just roll over and start sinking. We had to pull him out twice. He couldn't even make it across the pool with fins and wet suit on. Unbelievably, he was passed on to finish the course, and was planning to head to Coz in 2 weeks with his diving girlfriend. I sure hope he made it okay, because it didn't look good to us. I ended up getting my daughter and boyfriend an open water referral in Belize for their final dives so that I could feel better about their skills after some time with a different instructor. They are good divers now but we still shake our heads remembering their training experience.


Hey LG...

Sounds like a guy I wouldn't pass from one of my "PADI" courses... and wouldn't take to open water. It really depends on the instructor... Remember, QA/QC. But... it's a bit more complicated than that too... we live in a society that thinks everyone should be "mainstreamed" in everything. If not, they will sue. Some people should just plain not be diving... I would work extra with people to help them learn how to dive, but when I said "you would be better off not diving" until you can do X, Y, and Z.... it was because they would be significant risk to themselves or others... and I would not certify them to do that.

The PADI/NAUI/SSI/PDIC/YMCA/ETC. course is not a course deficient in material or practice or testing, if done correctly. Weed out the bad instructors/stores to benefit of all, and be willing to pay for GOOD, QUALITY instruction. It IS life support under water, after all!


:birthday:
"The most important thing is to never stop breathing"... ITB

Actually, the WORST day of diving is better than the BEST day at work... :)

and... my life is not measured by the number of breaths I take, but by the number of breaths I take UNDER WATER :)

"I see you are no stranger to pain." -- "I was married... TWICE!!!" HOT SHOTS, PART DEUX

#37 drdiver

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 09:26 AM

While this sounds wonderful in theory, I feel that it would eliminate/alienate plenty of curious people from dive training altogether. I can only speak for myself, of course, but at this stage, I may not necessarily have a *burning, all-consuming desire* to learn diving -- but I am genuinely interested and curious! biggrin.gif

I'm not opposed to a 6 week course, but I wonder what the costs involved would be. Just because someone is interested in diving at the start, doesn't mean they'll continue to be after the course is over. They'd probably be hesitant to put down (for example) $1000+ for a course that may not amount to anything due to lack of interest afterward. But if people could take an *intro* course that would expose them to the necessary basics in terms of skills, safety and equipment, and wouldn't require an exorbitant sum (both money and time), I think they would be much more inclined to pursue diving with the potential for it to become a *burning desire*/passion/lifestyle/etc. smile.gif

Another consideration are those that initially learn diving as an activity to do during their upcoming vacation. I sense an *attitude* from some regarding such people, but I view them in two ways:

1. Just because they are only able to dive once or twice a year, does it mean they should be viewed with contempt by lifestyle divers? Their interest may rival that of a lifestyle diver perhaps, but due to finances, responsibilities (children, aging parents, etc.), location, etc., their actual dive time is much less.

2. Just because they took their OW for a vacation or on a vacation, doesn't mean that a holiday pasttime won't one day turn into a lifelong passion.

My point here is had these people's only option been to take a rather costly, time consuming course, they may have overlooked diving


What you are suggesting is exactly what has been done by the major training agencies. The course has been made more and more accessible to more people. Without saying so, this is partly an economic consideration--students are the life blood of most dive shops--the more students the more sales. Many divers feel O/W courses are to the point of no longer training people to the point where they are comfortable diving. We do have national, university and regional programs that offer a much more in depth course but their impact on the diving population is low for a variety of reasons. My point is that by making the courses more accessible (for example, you have reduced classroom instruction, you can just watch a DVD and pass a test) you have less interaction with real live divers. The students spend less time in the store and have less opportunity to buy gear, but they also lose interaction time with people in the sport.

I don't think many lifestyle divers view people who dive seldom with contempt. Maybe concern might be a better word.
There are old divers and there are bold divers, but there ain't no old, bold divers.

#38 mantarraya

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 10:01 AM

Blue -

I like to think that most instructors, PADI or otherwise, would be like you and NOT let a guy that can't even float, much less tread water or swim pass their OW cert. Everyone seems to be challenged by something in their certification (not to mention getting that wetsuit on the first time!!!). The good instructors set themselves apart by being able to work with the students that are challenged, and by providing a balanced pool/water experience. We all took AOW and Nitrox together later with different instructors and had a good PADI experience. So I was not at all slamming PADI, just that one OW course experience.
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#39 intotheblue

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 10:35 AM

Blue -

I like to think that most instructors, PADI or otherwise, would be like you and NOT let a guy that can't even float, much less tread water or swim pass their OW cert. Everyone seems to be challenged by something in their certification (not to mention getting that wetsuit on the first time!!!). The good instructors set themselves apart by being able to work with the students that are challenged, and by providing a balanced pool/water experience. We all took AOW and Nitrox together later with different instructors and had a good PADI experience. So I was not at all slamming PADI, just that one OW course experience.


Like a course director friend of mine (my original BASIC diver instructor) says when people say we don't need any more instructors... "we need more GOOD instructors". Unfortunately, the industry doesn't always appreciate the GOOD ones... I would like to think I am/was one... but I am semi-retired now. I only carry my DAN Instructor ratings at this time...

:birthday:
"The most important thing is to never stop breathing"... ITB

Actually, the WORST day of diving is better than the BEST day at work... :)

and... my life is not measured by the number of breaths I take, but by the number of breaths I take UNDER WATER :)

"I see you are no stranger to pain." -- "I was married... TWICE!!!" HOT SHOTS, PART DEUX

#40 drdiver

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 10:46 AM

Sounds like a guy I wouldn't pass from one of my "PADI" courses... and wouldn't take to open water. It really depends on the instructor... Remember, QA/QC. But... it's a bit more complicated than that too... we live in a society that thinks everyone should be "mainstreamed" in everything. If not, they will sue. Some people should just plain not be diving... I would work extra with people to help them learn how to dive, but when I said "you would be better off not diving" until you can do X, Y, and Z.... it was because they would be significant risk to themselves or others... and I would not certify them to do that.

The PADI/NAUI/SSI/PDIC/YMCA/ETC. course is not a course deficient in material or practice or testing, if done correctly. Weed out the bad instructors/stores to benefit of all, and be willing to pay for GOOD, QUALITY instruction. It IS life support under water, after all!


Two Amens to those statements! Well said.
There are old divers and there are bold divers, but there ain't no old, bold divers.

#41 Trimix2dive

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 07:41 PM

Dive shop water cooler this weekend. A no BS session with a recently OW student. (Note, I had nothing to do with the cert. sign off on these students. Just a fishing expedition.)

Me: "Well how was your first few dive out in the real world with the training wheels off ?"

Student 1: "It felt like getting the key to a new car at 16, then being told you have to drive around in a city you've never been in. It was fun but scared the hell out of me the first time - I was very uncomfortable and paranoid."

Student 2 (his friend and a little better than #1): "We seemed to hang at the bottom of the lake. Everything was fine until we silted out the spot where we were looking at fish. That WAS NOT FUN, it was kind of a little scary."

Me: Just a question, you payed $ X for the class.

Student 1: yeah.

Me: Would you have paid $399 for the class and had it been longer and more in depth? If it made you more prepared?

Student 2: yeah I would have, i'll get better in time, probably much better for the long run with more class and pool. those first few dives probably would have been better and less intimidating.

#42 captsteve

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:34 PM

just for the argument.....when i first got my cert, i probably wouldnt have paid much more than $400. now that i am hooked, money is no object for good gear or instruction. in fact, i have already spent a lot of $$ this year for instruction and wish i had time to do more..... maybe next fall.

#43 6Gill

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:19 AM

just for the argument.....when i first got my cert, i probably wouldnt have paid much more than $400. now that i am hooked, money is no object for good gear or instruction. in fact, i have already spent a lot of $$ this year for instruction and wish i had time to do more..... maybe next fall.


It's always much easier to pay for value once we understand what we are buying.

Eric

#44 Piz

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 04:16 AM

A lot of the points that have been made here are valid. Some of you say the Certs should be tougher, some say they should be kept the way they are to help encourage diving, and comments have been made regarding people who are holiday divers adn lifestyle divers (i have to confess I am in the second group). In my opinion both points of view regarding tougher vs accesable certs are very valid points of view.

In my humble opinion I think the instructors are the key here.

I was lucky when I did my open water in that the instructors made sure we could REALLY do everything required and generally pushed us to the limits of the course and even taught us a bit more than was in the books. From there I did no further training for nearly 8 years and did all manner of different things I really hadn't been certified for. Lucky for me the people I normally dive with were experienced and I learnt a lot of things practically. I have now reached the point where I want to do more training and have had to go back over what I had learnt by experience, which I have to say was an interesting exsersize.

However the point I am making is whilst I did not learan the proper or conventional way the initial instructors I had made sure I had enough knowlege, respect for what I was doing and a solid foundation to build on for future diving experience.

In short I think that good instructors equal good divers!

#45 Trimix2dive

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:52 PM

A lot of the points that have been made here are valid. Some of you say the Certs should be tougher, some say they should be kept the way they are to help encourage diving, and comments have been made regarding people who are holiday divers adn lifestyle divers (i have to confess I am in the second group). In my opinion both points of view regarding tougher vs accesable certs are very valid points of view.

In my humble opinion I think the instructors are the key here.

I was lucky when I did my open water in that the instructors made sure we could REALLY do everything required and generally pushed us to the limits of the course and even taught us a bit more than was in the books. From there I did no further training for nearly 8 years and did all manner of different things I really hadn't been certified for. Lucky for me the people I normally dive with were experienced and I learnt a lot of things practically. I have now reached the point where I want to do more training and have had to go back over what I had learnt by experience, which I have to say was an interesting exsersize.

However the point I am making is whilst I did not learan the proper or conventional way the initial instructors I had made sure I had enough knowlege, respect for what I was doing and a solid foundation to build on for future diving experience.

In short I think that good instructors equal good divers!


OK we're at a spinpoint here. What is the litmus test for a good instructor and how does the industry weed out the bad and the poor. Better Instructors - Better Instructors - Fine, I conceed in part. Now that we have the the base core material is fine (for the point of this debate across all certifying organizations), what is the barometer for instructors being in or out. Gloves off folks.




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