50 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

Ok, makes sense. I was just wondering if I was MISSING something. it's something that I needed and wanted to understand because right now a large proportion of my dive partners WILL be normal OW divers. And I really haven't practiced an OW OOA ascent in many years.

I guess when I was certified, I really didn't know enough to ask the tough questions.

Thanks for the clarifications everyone, and BurningChrome, sorry for the short hijaak. I hope you'll forgive me.

[Capn Jack]

HMMMMM Very carefully??? All kidding aside. I belive your giving up a little to keep the OOA diver from bolting to the surface. If both divers have the wits about them. I assume one could let go and pick up the pressure guage or computer. On the other hand if one diver is paniced, slightly exceding the ascent rate would be better then an all out bust for the surface. And again from open water depths a bouyant energency ascent is still an option inan emergency.

So I guess my answere is you can't to all three, so something has to give.

Thanks for your insights. I agree. What we stress is we can fix bent, we can't fix dead. If we have to make a trade, 1) keep air available, 2) avoid lung embolism and 3) maintain control.

Each student must do an alternate air source ascent as part of OW training. We don't evaluate timed ascent rate as a specific task, but in the larger task of controlled ascent. This is why I think the positive aspect of the roman handshake, the agreement to ascend, the dumping of air on the ascent while finning are good practices that will minimize the risk. These steps are enforced, and I believe help reduce the instinctive urgency.

In confined water, we also teach alternate air horizontal swimming, stressing the fact that the crisis is over, and you may need to swim to the anchor line for example before starting a controlled ascent.

To the point of consoles, this is one reason I prefer wrist mounts. I can watch my depth and time with the same hand that is grasping the LPI. With only a twist of the wrist.

Don't forget, a knife is required gear in the Navy Dive manual for a reason. You can persuade your buddy of the need to slow down by careful application of the sharp point into the corner of the eye.

Edited by Capn Jack, 03 May 2006 - 04:05 PM.

[Burning Chrome]

Hey, not a problem...it helps me think about what I am learning and is a good reason--in my mind--why I am posting this stuff. So, I should thank you for bringing it up.
I should mention that the instructor said that as the diver with air, we were not to let go of the diver w/o air, but that it was ok for them to let go of us. He also stated that the diver w/o air is the diver in control of the ascent. My understanding was that you would attempt, to the best of your abilities under the given situation, to do a controled ascent under the appropriate guidelines. But, it is understandable that in an emergency situation that may not be feasable.

Does that make any sense?

Off to the next class...maybe I'll pester ther instructor for an answer to the question.

[PerroneFord]

Well, your instructor and I don't agree then.

There is *NO WAY* I want the OOA diver in control of my ascent. This persons judgement (or gear) got them in that mess in the first place. I have no desire to let be in control of the ascent. Chances are they are paniced anyway and probably not in the best state of mind to make crucial decisions.

[Burning Chrome]

But what happens to them if they need to add air to their BC? If they are out of air, they must do it manually...unless you are going to control the bouyancy for the both of you...
As I recall from my days learning to be a lifegaurd, that if you approach a drowning victim and they are overly panicked and try to drown you (the rescuer) then you are to back off and, if necessary, take them underwater to get away from them. Only approach them again when they are more calm.
If the person who is out of air is so that panicked about the situation, then I do not believe they will be waiting around for you anyway.

Anyway, what Cap'n Jack said is exactly what our instructor says...we can't fix you if you're dead.
Time for bed...it's been a long day. I'll try to report about tonight's class in the morning. Peace.

[Diverbrian]

Having just recently seen one of these for real, I have to comment.

As was pointed out the donor has his hands busy holding onto the OOG diver and hopefully venting his BC but may be forcing his/her reg into the OOG diver's mouth. If the ascent rate is high, we are in OW not in an overhead. I would hope that the receipeint of the donor's gas would be trying to vent as well. Again, we typically don't monitor ascent rate very carefully on these type of ascents, but the idea is not to look like a Polaris missile when breaching the surface. The OOG diver will be most likely to have a free hand (better to vent a BC with) due to the hand off of the reg from the donor.

Having donated to some low on gas divers to extend their dives (by plan), I can tell you that the diver will do their best to stay near you when you are their breathing gas source .

Also, to say that the diver's judgement/gear got them into that situation is half true. The other half is that you as their buddy chose to dive with them. If you saw a gear issue, you had the choice to say something or not dive with them. The judgement of said buddy is another issue. Sometimes you just don't know. But if you hear them say that they can do this 50 foot dive on the the same AL80 that they did the last 50 ft. dive on, that may set off alarm bells before hitting the water. Oh, and you are overlooking a situation with that opinion. ANY reg has the capability to freeflow in cold water. Ninety percent of the OOG situations that I see are freeflowing regs due to the cold. Many of them are warm water regs without environmental kits being used in cold water, but some of them are things like inflating one's drysuit while taking a deep breath.

Bottom line is that we are all human and all make mistakes. We have bad days. If it can be helped, we shouldn't have to die for those days. Believe it or not, I have seen some pretty calm OOG divers. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen a truly panicking OOG/freeflow/Low on Gas diver yet and I have donated gas a few times.

Also, keep in mind the OOG diver may not always be your buddy. That diver may be someone the boat that you barely talked to. That seems to be the typical situation for me as a matter of fact.

[Burning Chrome]

Class 5, Pool Session 4

Lecture
Dive tables and their use was the main thrust of the lecture for this class. We spent a good deal of time going over how to read the tables and how to use the tables depending on whether you are doing a single dive or repetitive dives. The important things were RNT, AMDT and TNT. We also learned about the importance of the surface interval.
The other thing we discussed in this class was diving (trip) planning, both short term and long term. The steps to take when planning a dive, whether it be local or half-way around the world. Seems there are sample checklists in the back of my book.

Pool Session
We spent the first part of the last night's session going over some very basic snorkeling as we had not used the snorkels up to that point. We learned how to do a surface dive and to clear our snorkels.
Next on the agenda was how to put the gear on in a deep water situation, where it might be necessary to put the gear in the water and then put it on. That worked fairly well, at least for me.
We then practiced some of the previous skills we had learned ranging from the mask clearing to the regulator retrieval to the tired buddy tow. This was all done in shallow water and then again in the deep end, and is in preparation for our first real dive which is this coming Sunday. We also praticed the OOA situation and the buddy breathing from the secondary. The final thing that we did last night was to do an emergency swimming ascent with the instructor, being sure that we made a continuous "ahhhhh" sound during the ascent. We then had a little while to just swim around and continue to get used to the equipment and breathing underwater.

Upcoming
Out first "real" dive!!! We are going to be getting in the water Sunday at Crystal River to do our first out of pool in real water dives. We will also be learning to use the compass for navigation. We will also do all of our previously learned skills. We will also take a diving tour of the spring. The depth of these first dives will be 30'. It will be the first time for us to be wearing wetsuits as well...should be exciting! (The water temp at the spring is a constant 72 degrees, year 'round.) As I do not own a wetsuit, I will be renting one locally and taking it with me. I have already been in contact with two local dive shops and will go get the wetsuit on Saturday.

Soon and very soon I will be

Edited by Burning Chrome, 04 May 2006 - 05:44 AM.

[PerroneFord]

Man,

I have to say this again. You sound like you've got a solid instructor. The real test is coming in the open water section, but thus far, from the sound of things, s/he is doing a great job.

I do have a suggestion. If you have not used a wetsuit to this point, see if you can get in the pool with one. They change the feel of the dive somewhat and feel restricting. You might not want that feeling to be new in open water your first dive. Also, you want to be sure the thing fits well.

The other thing you may not be prepared for is your legs may get tired from the swimming around the spring. Seems crazy I know, but finning uses muscles you don't utilize walking. Kicks my butt when I sit out from diving a few weeks and go back!

Have fun man, and thanks for the updates!

[Capn Jack]

The other thing we discussed in this class was diving (trip) planning, both short term and long term. The steps to take when planning a dive, whether it be local or half-way around the world. Seems there are sample checklists in the back of my book.

This is really good to cover. The worst dive will be the one you miss because you forgot a piece of gear, or didn't realize your departure flight in the early morning of the trip meant you wouldn't have enough desat time to make the night dive.

Our first "real" dive!!!

It's great to get out of the pool, and into open water. Nonetheless, your pool experience is just as real - you've been breathing compressed air under water, just in a little more controlled environment. The physics is the same. You may find some events - like the CESA, are actually easier in open water since you'll be going vertical rather than at the shallower angle you probably used in a pool to practice. Mr Boyle gives you a lot more help with the continuous "aaahhh" when you're moving vertically!!

It will be the first time for us to be wearing wetsuits as well...should be exciting!

Perrone has an excellent point here. Take your time getting fitted, and ask the LDS staff for advice. To work effectively, fit must be snug, but you still need freedom of movement. After your fins & mask, this should be one of your first purchases to consider. Rental suits tend to be pretty sad.

Sunday usually marks a sad point for me, the end of the weekend, but I am excited about hearing how your first OW event goes. Remember - breathe in, breathe out, repeat.

Edited by Capn Jack, 04 May 2006 - 06:36 AM.

[PerroneFord]

Having just recently seen one of these for real, I have to comment.

Also, keep in mind the OOG diver may not always be your buddy. That diver may be someone the boat that you barely talked to. That seems to be the typical situation for me as a matter of fact.

This was EXACTLY my point. I try to select my buddies carefully when I can. But I don't want some joker I don't know, who wasn't a part of my dive team, drowning or bending me because THEY had an issue.

I realize we are all human, and we all have issues that can happen. Happens to the best. And I didn't mean to get off on a tangent of what makes a good dive buddy and all that. I just had a serious procedural question. It's been answered.

Thanks,

-P

[Burning Chrome]

Thanks for the info and support!

It is my intention to go tomorrow--Saturday--to the local dive shop to get the wetsuit, a rental. I do intend to take my time and get one that will work well for me as I hate being cold and the water temp will be 72*.
As for purchasing one, if I do, it won't be until later as I will be moving soon and don't need the extra stuff to move...plus, living where I do, I am not sure I will need it...but then again, what do I know?

Random question: what does one wear under a wetsuit???

Anyway, I am very excited and very much looking forward to the dives out of the pool. And while I do know the pool dives are real, it will be nice to see something underwater besides concrete and tile.

Thanks again!

[PerroneFord]

Some people wear swimming trunks under their wetsuit. A lot of Europeans wear nothing (some americans too). I prefer to wear Underarmour bottoms and tops under mine. They make the suit slip on easier, they dry fast, and they add a bit of warmth in my opinion.

Only drawback is they are a bit pricy.

[Burning Chrome]

Well, I arrived this morning at Crystal River to meet with the instructors and the rest of the class at 8am. It is an hour and a half drive from where I live to the dive location. Anyway, we got our gear (tank and BC) and assembled it, making sure that everything was working. We transported all of our gear--including mask, fins, wetsuit & snorkel--to the boat. After everyone was on the boat with their gear and, mostly, in their wetsuits, we made our way to the dive location. We anchored on about 3 feet of water. We got into the water and snorkeled out over the spring to orient ourselves to our location. While we were doing that, the assistant instructor was putting our gear in the water. We returned to the boat and got into our gear.
We then learned how to use the compass to navigate to and from a location using the lubber line and the witness mark. We all practiced setting a few courses with the compass.
Once we were all ready to go, the instructor gave us a brief run down of what we were going to be doing and assigned the buddy groups numbers. Groups one and two were going to be doing the underwater portion first while groups 3 and 4 were going to practice with the compasses and navigating. We would then switch once the first two groups had successfully completed their tests. The first series of tests included the regulator retrieval, mask clearing, neutral bouyancy and buddy breathing with the octopus. After both buddies had done the simulated OOG exercise we surfaced while in the second simulated OOG exercise and did a buddy tow back to the boat. The groups then switched.
After all groups had completed their first round of exercises, we talked a bit more about compass use and discussed the second series of exercises that we would be doing. These would include another mask clearing, a manual neutral bouyancy trial and a tour of the spring with the instructor. Finally, with the instructor we did a simulated OOG exercise that required an ESA. This was done one at a time, one on one with the instructor, who made sure that we made the "aaahhh" or "zzzzzz" sound as we surfaced.

All in all it was a successful trip. Visibility was about 20- 25' at the spring. The water temp was a brisk 72--really glad I rented the wetsuit! There really wasn't a great deal to see, though there is a small manatee statue there at the spring. I saw two very small fish and lots of underwater plants and several rocks. Of course, we didn't have a great deal of time to explore as we were doing our tests, which was the main reason for the trip. It was still nice to be diving somewhere besides the pool.
Tomorrow night will be our final night in the pool and on Wednesday we will take out final written test. The following Sunday (Mother's Day) we will do our three final OW dives at Devil's Den, which, I am told, is near Ocala, FL. It seems like just yesterday I started this chronicles and here, before you--or I--know it, it will be over and I will (hopefully) be certified!

That's all for now...my next report will be Tuesday morning...

[Burning Chrome]

Sorry for the delay in posting...my week has been very hectic and busy...anyway...on with the posting about what is important, diving!

Well, on Monday we had our final lecture and pool session. We covered a little about first aid and rendering help to your buddy. It was very basic stuff and (mostly) common sense, but very worthwhile to cover...you can't be too safe.
For the pool session the we covered weight belts--putting on and taking off--as we have been using integrated BCs. We also went over removing and replacing your gear under water. We each practiced the new stuff under the watchful eye of the instructor and then we repeated the new stuff with just our buddy for the remainder of the session.
On Wednesday we took the paper final. I scored a 93% on the test. We also discussed the upcoming final dives that are to take place at Devil's Den. I am looking forward to the final dives. I hope to be certified by the end of the dives on Sunday and should have my dive card by the end of the month.
That's all I have for now...I will post up on either Sunday or Monday with the results of the trip. Peace.

[annasea]

Best of luck with your check-out dives!