25 replies to this topic

[WreckWench]

Hey guys...lets not fall into the trap of finger pointing between agencies. While it has not happened yet...we are close to falling into that trap. We appreciate and respect you for keeping the discussion educational and informative and respectful.

If I may...weighing in on this subject I think it boils down to the ultimate question of what is the necessary amount of instruction needed for what level (whatever this means and many agencies do have some difference of opinion on this) and if the student is willing to pay the money for it and make the time investment into it.

I for one think that the student does not usually know how to make these tradeoffs when they are first exposed to the sport. UNLESS they have been exposed to online diving resources such as SingleDivers.com etc. and/or they have been asked what they want when they express interest in learning to dive. What does that mean?

For example...

Student Prospect: I'm interested in learning to dive. What can you do for me?

Shop/Instructor: What are you looking for? Do you want to dive 1-2 times a year or do you think you'll want to dive more frequently than that? Do you think you'll want to dive on wrecks or in caverns/caves one day or just on beautiful reefs all over the world? Do you think you'll want to take pictures underwater or spearfish? The underwater world offers many opportunities and your training can be customized to fit your needs.

Student Prospect: WOW! I didn't realize there were so many options. I thought there was one certification and so I was just shopping price/value for that certifcation.

Shop/Instructor: While price is important it is relative to what you are getting. Do you want a private class or group class? Do you want to do some of your work online and then do your classroom and pool work with an instructor? Do you want to do all your instruction with an instructor? Do you want a class that stretches out over a semester like the ones offered by junior colleges or do you want a class that runs 6 weeks or covers the same material over 2 long weekends? Of course each class will have tradeoffs of time and/or money. If your style of learning is slower, needing more repetition you may need a class that runs longer. If you are a fish in the water and pick things up quickly you may do fine in a shorter class. Basically we can offer you what you need if we understand what you want.

Student Prospect: Well I was leaving on vacation in a couple of weeks and decided at the last minute that I wanted to learn to dive.

We all know there is no one right answer to what follows...

SO HEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM....WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU GET THE FOLLOWING RESPONSES???

Student Prospect: Does this mean I don't have enough time to learn to dive or just the basics?

Student Prospect: If I learn the basics now can I take add'l classes and learn more?

Student Prospect: Well I don't think based on what you've told me that I'll have enough time to do it right and learn what I need to learn so I guess I'll take the class another time when I can dedicate the time needed to it.



So depending on what the student wants...there is an agency that will cater to their need for learning and their need for indepth information and their time/value/cost tradeoffs. And within that agency he/she will find any level of instructor ranging from phenominal to barely adequate.

While it would be nice to have 'one size fits all' and therefore one price for all...its too late for that. This country and even our world is increasingly based upon differentiation in order to get ahead. Just as some people are happy to eat fast food and others will only eat at a 5 star restuarant...we have a million variants inbetween. The same applies to some respect with diving.

EVERY Agency has pros and cons...every agency has similarities and differences. And every agency offers a product/service that matches the needs of divers. Does that mean that a diver entering Agency A and gets their training and then discovers Agency B and wish they had done their training via them? That will happen. Just as divers will get training from Agency C and discover Agency B and never regret that they used Agency C. So its all relative.

Now if we could talk about ways to better educate divers to make these appropriate trade offs...now THAT would be an excellent discussion! -ww

[PerroneFord]

Kamala has done a better job of articulating what I was trying to ask. It was not my intent to demonize or exhault ANY agency over another. I thought that by offering that I was taking training (and what I think is good training) from numerous agencies, that would be clear. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to have been the case.

It appears that several people here have been brow-beaten in the past with the idealogy of a particular agency. I am sorry to open old wounds.

In the future, I will refrain from speaking about potentially charged subjects. I lack the experience, and the weight in this environment for it to be taken in the manner I'd like it to. I offer my apologies to Kamala, and the other moderators for causing this mess.

I hope everyone has a great day, and safe diving...

-P

[intotheblue]

so what was the purpose of the video and the one guy swimming back and forth in front of the camera? Oh gee I think I get it.....

So this was an instructor training session. During those sessions it is customary when behaving as a "student" to dive at your worst - to put the instructor candidate to test. Were these true student divers, which would be unlikely in an IDC, or is there some misrepesentation going on to market other agencies poorly here??

And on a side note from an instructor who teaches in some of the worst water conditions, it doesn't matter how many hours you spend in a pool with someone - it can never garantee how a person is going to behave in open water, how they are going to behave with more equipment, exposure protection, in salt water, in lower viz, in deeper water...etc.

I had an Air Force test pilot with zero issues in the pool or on the first day of diving break down in tears in front of me right as we were about to descend for the second day of diving. The viz had gone to 0" that day and for safety he was my only student as I reduced to a 1:1 ratio, he just lost it.

I tend to step out of agency comparison threads, or agency vs. instructor threads, or who's the best diver, who's the best instructor - there are NO FACTS when discussing these - there are only opinions. But, I do tend to get a little strained when I am out there busting my hump on my own personal time teaching for little to no money trying to introduce people to an amazing world and then at the end of the day I have to read about bad we instructors are and the bad agencies we teach for?

There are good drivers and bad drivers; there are good cooks and bad cooks, there are good [insert subject here] and there are bad ones. There will always be level of talent, good and bad. I look for the open minded people who judge inward, not outward, and are willing to put forth their best effort.

Well I just got out the pool, teaching for that gosh darned agency, putting extra hours in with students heading to their open water this weekend. They don't frog kick, they have multicolored equipment, and you know what, they'll be just fine.

I haven't had a chance to follow this completely, but what she said! If this was instructors in training, they will look like the worst "dufuses" on the planet while trying to trip each other up. Bashing? Gue...? Naw! That would never happen!

[ScubaDadMiami]

Perhaps I am seeing something in the video that others are not. Can any of you identify the persons that are playing instructors in the video? It is pretty hard IMHO.

The instructor should be using proper technique even if the students are not. I don't see such an example being set by these instructors. They should be taking charge and getting the students to attempt to hold position by remaining neutrally buoyant and using proper trim. I don't see that happening here. They should not be standing or kneeling on the boat deck even if the students are doing this. It looks to me like everyone is standing on the deck for the most part.

The students are supposed to do a poor job. Creating an instructor requires putting the candidate through the paces of what can happen in a difficult class so that the instructor is prepared for this when it happens in the real world. So, I have no qualms about what the "students" are doing in this scene. That's what they are supposed to do.

My problem is with the poor demonstration quality of those in charge. That's what I see here. (I realize that the photographer is trying to make a point about agency. That is where I have disagreement.)However, there would be no point about the quality of this instruction if it weren't there to be seen in the first place. I see it.

I think that points like this make good discussions so long as they don't take on a personal or blanket nature. So, I would hope that people do not start to self-sensor for fear of being targeted for not playing nicely.

[PerroneFord]

I think that points like this make good discussions so long as they don't take on a personal or blanket nature. So, I would hope that people do not start to self-sensor for fear of being targeted for not playing nicely.

It was a dumb idea on my part in the first place. Won't happen again. I promise you that.

[konascubagirl]

Although I've been critical of the training currently offered by several agencies compared to that which was given in the days I got certified, there is one area that I think ALL agencies largely ignore (correct me if I'm wrong). Is there ANY agency that goes beyond training the skills necessary for SCUBA diving and really gets into developing an understanding of the marine life and ecology one encounters underwater? It seems this, rather than strictly focusing on skills development, would be a nice area to expand in basic and advanced training (NOT just as a specialty course). Shouldn't we know more about the new context divers are entering into?

Aloha Dr. Bill!

I agree that most agencies propbably do not include enough REQUIRED marine science/ecology into their basic courses. That being said, most of the agancies ARE encouraging their instructors to at least try to instill a sense of awareness into their individual programs. Back in my former life in Seattle, I was a researcher at U of Washington in the dept of biochem in the field of phytoremediation...actually the only trained botany person there. I had a couple of fabulous classes in phycology and became fascinated with reefs even before I was a diver. I kept "pet" algae for years. I DO stress, repeatedly, to anyone I'm diving with (sometimes even those I'm not) to be careful of the environment while diving. As a result of this concern, good bouyancy control is something I have students work on over and over and over. Notice I didn't say "trim" here. Trim and bouancy control are 2 different things in my opinion. I will never make it my life's goal to be able to hover with my fins/body in prescribed "acceptable" position in perfectly calm water. However, after MUCH practice and experience, I can maintain my position (upside-down, verticle, horizontal, sideways) in the water column in almost any sea condition, ie I can hover a couple of inches away from what I am looking at.

KSG

[Dive_Girl]

Talking about how to better dive training is FABULOUS (we have several threads discussing similar topics, some started by instructors proactively asking for diver input) - linking me to an unconfirmed video that IMO has clear undertones and ulterior motives, that's where you lost me.

[Capn Jack]

Great topic.

This seems to be a fairly consistent set of concerns, and I think WW did a good job of characterizing some of the outlooks of people wishing to join the community.

I'm hoping we can discuss how to improve our community, and learn from each other.

About me:

I have been working with students for just one year. I am a DM, and only "work" for my LDS, and their 3 instructors. We are PADI. The LDS owner caters to a very upscale Dallas suburb, and characterizes his typical client as a "caribbean" diver, who takes one or two fun diving vacations a year.

About my teaching experience:

The instructors all focus on safety, and knowing your limits. Without creating an atmosphere of fear, they do emphasize not just the how, but the why of a skill. They are conscientious about not "giving away" an OW cert. I've personally seen students recycled in the pool before going to the lake, as well as recycled on their lake dives - especially when they are clearly not in control of their buoyancy. The instructors emphasize good buoyancy skills being so important because you don't want to crash into the reef, or find yourself at the surface should you lose focus during an ocean dive.

About our students:

99% are in the category described by the LDS owner, on their way to a warm water vacation. Some are quite impatient with our course, but the majority quickly get the safety attitude radiated by our instructors. Based on what I've seen, an intense skill building session to mastery would be a hard sell.

My biggest complaint:

My instructors do initially over-weight the students with the rationale of avoiding "rockets" when they lose focus on the diving. I also believe this streamlines the class because so many new divers are hyperventilating, and thus prone to pop up during the initial skill training. On the second dive of each day, we work a lot on buoyancy and weighting, but I'm convinced it could happen sooner.

My resolve:

As long as I am a DM, to do what I can with my instructors to move toward teaching buoyancy earlier, and then reviewing the skills mid-water. When I have time, I have always, and will continue, to work with individual divers on weighting and buoyancy, the two major shortfalls IMHO.

Bottom line

I believe our students take their C-card with a good understanding of entry-level recreational diving, their abilities and their limits. They know, and have been told, they are now ready to learn more about diving, and of course encouraged to return for AOW and Rescue. Our LDS tries to package things like AOW and nitrox into the trips so the customers get more value for the money.

Are they all candidates for diver of the year? Probably not. Are they all dangerous to themselves and their fellow divers? I don't think so. Could they get in trouble? - of course. Could we teach more? - also of course.

I think the agencies are market sensitive, and adjust their curriculum to their customers. Open Water is squarely aimed at the casual, vacation-oriented diver. If they catch the bug, and want to do more, the conscientious ones will seek advanced certifications for tech, wreck, cave etc. There are also people that will extend their own limits without training or equipment, and they are the ones that frighten me.

On the other hand, the only sure way to get everyone in the water to comply with some set of rules is to establish international laws, an international scuba police force and all the scary things that go with that.

my two psi

[Dennis]

Sorry Kamala. I wasn't trying to point fingers at one agency or another. I just know that my instructor provided the type of training that drbill asked about. He is a Y instructor. He may have done this if he was a N instructor, a S instructor, or a P instructor, etc. I really don't know since I don't have his instructor book in front of me. I actually believe that none of these agencies have the marine life and ecology as a basic part of open water requirements. I am just happy that he took the time to provide the training. Something I am very interested in for my own knowledge.

[WreckWench]

While I think we have some good discussion going on here and I think that some old wounds have been inadvertantly opened, I do see the enthusiasm for learning and doing things as best as is humanly possible spilling over into the passion that has been touched upon in this thread in topics as delicate as agency differences. As a result, the originator has asked that I close the thread as he feels he has accidently created hard feelings which was not his intention. He has said so in the thread but has still sent me an email asking me to close the thread stating that it was not his intention to start any agency bashing, comparisons nor creating of any hard feelings, wound opening etc.

While I disagree that the thread should be closed I will honor Perrone's request. I will say that he is heartfelt in this request and spent a good 30 minutes talking to me on the phone on the matter expressing his regret. He is eager to learn...eager to be the best possible diver that he can personally be and he is a perfectionist. I had the pleasure of diving with Perrone at our Ginnie Springs Intro to Tech clinic and he is working very hard at his second intro to diving. In his quest for perfection, he strives to ensure that he has and continues to make the best decisions that he feels he can make about instruction, certification, practice and mastery. He has very high standards for himself and he has extensive goals in the diving arena. The only thing you can perhaps fault him on is that he may not realize that everyone doesn't approach diving the same way that he does.

In any event, diving is an INCLUSIVE sport that offers something for everyone. We have LOTS of different diving activities that range from the ocassional diver to the hardcore technical or commercial diver. You can learn different styles of diving and different applications of diving. What a wonderful sport!!! Is any one way the best? Is any style superior? Well tell me this...is any food style superior? Any one kind of food the best? While we all might have opinions on the matter and perhaps have some facts to back up our opinions...at the end of the day it is all about preferences, choices and tradeoffs.

The same holds true for diving. So.....

this thread will now be officially closed at the originators request. If you still wish to discuss a similar subject that does not revolve around the video clip nor the agency differences, then please feel free to start a new thread and continue this discussion. Thank you all very much - Kamala aka Wreck Wench