100 replies to this topic

[Hexkraut]

I really don't care what my LDS carries, I like buying my equipment online for a LOT cheaper such as scubastore.com
I looked at UWATEC Aladin PRIME Wrist but have not read many good reviews about it, however it would save me some $75 or so.

Edited by Hexkraut, 13 July 2006 - 01:56 PM.

[VADiver]

A simple NITROX computer that can be switched to gauge mode will work ofr all of your diving.

But I agree with those who said to learn the tables and become proficient with them first. Yes a computer does have benefits, but you can also get in-trouble relying on it without knowing whats going on.

[Dive_Girl]

I really don't care what my LDS carries, I like buying my equipment online for a LOT cheaper such as scubastore.com

That's really too bad you don't care what your local dive shop is providing. I get air from my local dive shop - that cannot be provided online. There can also be warranty issues buying from online sources. Although scubstore ships "all equipment in the original packaging with manuals and warranties provided by the manufacturers" (<- from their website), if they are not an authorized dealer, the warranty may be rendered void. But I guess you get what you pay for. I like the personal touch and guarantee I have going through dive shops - I am still cost conscientious, mind you, and do use the Internet to become an informed diver. Just my take on dive shops because people trash dive shops all too often, not that you are here - just using it as a jump-off point.

In regards to computers, what DiverBrian and VaVinny said above. I dive a simple dive computer that allows for Enriched Air (Nitrox) diving and in-water gas switches, or can be switched to and dove in gauge mode.

[PerroneFord]

You've gotten some excellent advice thus far.

I am FIRMLY in the camp of diving without a computer. I did my first 30 or so dives with just a depth guage and a watch. I recommend that HIGHLY. Maybe even the first 50.

When you do get a computer, do get a nitrox model, it would be nice to get one you can download which I think is an excellent tool for a newer diver, and try to get something that can do guage mode, so that if you ever advance your diving, you're computer will still be of some use.

The Suunto Vyper is nice. I have one. The Gekko is also nice, but Suunto doesn't support downloading from it. It can be hacked and downloaded, but Suunto doesn't support it. I'm not so sure I'd want a Suunto, if I was truly using it for a computer and not a bottom timer. Forget the compass on the unit. It's not that great, and certainly not worth the added premium being asked.

As for the LDS issue, I'll stay out of that, other than to say, keep your options open. Some LDS's can be helpful, some leave a LOT to be desired.

[Jazzdiver]

The advice offered here has all been very good and wise, particularly with regard to really learning your tables first. However, I fall into the camp of those who pretty quickly jumped into diving with a computer, the reason largely being that most of my diving has all be on vacation trips where I wanted to maximize my dive time while still diving safely. So, a dive computer seemed a must, while not entirely true. As I got into u/w photography and found that a smooth, deep-to-shallow profile could easily become more jagged as a photo op distracted me back to some greater depth, again the value of a dive computer weighed in.

Regardless of having the dive computer, I also wear a Hyper Aqualand dive watch that also provides a depth gauge, so that in conjunction with carrying a dive table provides a computer backup....or it did for a while. When I upgraded from a console-mounted Oceanic DataMax Sport to a hoseless/wireless DataTrans Plus, I removed the gauge console and moved the DataMax Sport module to my BCD pocket as a redundant computer, taking the place of my dive table. When I removed my console, I replaced it with a pony bottle pressure gauge on the 1st stage so that I'd still have an analog gauge available...albeit not convenient for monitoring pressure during a dive. My thought was that if I ever lost the wireless tranmission of my tank pressure, I'd likely abort a dive anyway, and another diver could do a visual on the pony gauge to tell me my current tank pressure and I could plan my ascent based upon that.

I've just recently replaced my DataTrans Plus with the Oceanic VT3, which is also wireless. I've never had a failure in 8 years of using the DataTrans Plus, so I feel pretty trusting of the wireless technology and expect the VT3 should be even better. Since both are nitrox computers, the DataTrans Plus will now fall into the role of being the redundant computer in the BCD pocket, but will have the perk of still reporting my tank pressure. That is, both computers will be receiving the data from one wireless transmitter. I could run two transmitters but would rather just keep the 2nd as a spare. Meanwhile, the DataMax Sport is history...the battery had died and it was no longer serviceable, but it did allow me to get a 20% (off retail) upgrade credit on the VT3.

Whatever you decide, always keep your dive tables and review them periodically to keep your mind fresh on how to use them. Technology is great, but so is a sharp mind!

Daryl

[Geek]

I really don't care what my LDS carries, I like buying my equipment online for a LOT cheaper such as scubastore.com
I looked at UWATEC Aladin PRIME Wrist but have not read many good reviews about it, however it would save me some $75 or so.

You might want to reconsider your relationship with the dive shop. Dive shops are under a lot of pressure from the Internet and there are some things you can't get over the Internet. Air fills, training, face to face advice. Service is a lot more convenient at the LDS. We will all be in a world of hurt if the shops all close.

Now I am not suggesting that you grossly overpay, or buy something different from what you want, but do try to patronize a shop that treats you well and has prices that are reasonable. I would also say if you are researching something, like a computer, and chew up a salesman's time while he educates you on the differences, let's you look at everything he stocks, etc. and then buy it over the Internet for $10 less, then you are really hurting yourself.

[PerroneFord]

From what I can tell, quality LDS's aren't under real pressure. Crappy dive shops are under tremendous pressure. In the shops I visit, one appears on the verge of closing, another has moved about 90% of it's business to spearfishers, and the others are thriving with record sales.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the issues.

As far as this coming back to dive computers, I say spend your money where you'll get the best value. Not necessarily cheapest price, but best value. Maybe that's the LDS. Maybe it's not.

Air fills? Get real. I won't fill my tanks at a crappy LDS anyway. As it is, I drive nearly an hour away to get my tanks filled, when I have an LDS less than a mile from my house. I'd rather make the drive than be treated poorly. If you have a good LDS, support them by all means.

[peterbj7]

I agree with Perrone that divers should learn to dive without computers, but i don't agree that they then shouldn't use them. The correct way to use a computer is to monitor what it's telling you - to apply a reasonableness check. If it starts telling you something that just doesn't make sense there's probably something wrong. I used to think that computers either worked correctly (in accordance with whatever parameters had been input, which of course could be wrong) or not at all, but this view vanished when I had a DiveRite Nitek3 whose depth sensor started mis-reading. A dive in Florida cave country was apparently 20mtr deeper than the floor of the cave!

As to his comment on LDS's, my experience is rather different. I know of several very high quality LDS's in the PNW and elsewhere that have gone under over the past two years or so, and running one as I do I know how severe the financial pressures are. I doubt if he's thinking of a resort-based operation like mine, but the other ones I have in mind were all well away from resorts. It's tough and getting tougher, and maybe it won't be a question of driving just an hour but much further. Already there's a superb diving area in Britain with no dive center within at least 2 hours drive. And fuel is very expensive in the UK.

On choice of dive computer, I use several routinely. One that I've had for years and like as a piece of jewellery is the Suunto Stinger, with a SS strap. I use it in gauge mode much of the time, but find it too conservative as a computer for much of my diving. And it only runs a single mix. My favourite as a general purpose computer is also watch-style, and I can't see any reason for using an old fashioned bulky one. That's a DiveRite Nitek+, which is light to wear, very easy to read even for my eyesight, can be switched between two nitrox mixes underwater (no need for any more - the three on the Suunto D9 is a gimmic), and is a lot more liberal than the Stinger when I get to my 3rd or 4th dive. I often take it right to the limit and I've never had a DCS problem.

I also have an old Oceanic, which I find quite quirky in operation. More serious though is that it is specifically designed not to be used for decompression dives. I've seen later Oceanic models which also had this restriction, though I don't know what the current range are like.

I used to sell Uwatec computers, but after experiencing an out-of-the-box failure rate of more than 50% I stopped selling them.

Edited by peterbj7, 13 July 2006 - 08:50 PM.

[PerroneFord]

Peter,

The problem for me, is that recreational dive computers give profiles I prefer not to dive. Other's may feel comfortable with their profiles. I rather not have my computer penalize me for my deep stops, so I don't use my computer.

In terms of the LDS, I find that in nearly ANY business, it's a competitive market and success is not guaranteed. If you run a good shop, AND you have the customer base, then you'll survive. If someone else is doing a better job, they will be rewarded with the business.

In my area, I am blessed with some of the best dive shops in the world (my opinion, but also the opinion of many divers). I don't see them going anywhere any time soon. They are loyal to their customers, and their customers are HUGELY loyal to them. I think nothing of taking empty tanks with me and filling them there when I am headed in that direction.

[peterbj7]

Sorry Perrone, I edited my comment while you were posting yours. I agree wholeheartedly with you on the restrictions of the algorithms built into computers. I've found that the DiveRite algorithm works for me, as does the one in the VR3, and I feel comfortable relying on them (though not blindly, as I said in my edited post). The Suunto simply annoys me and I often end up ignoring it. After a recent sequence of three deep and long single tank recreational dives my Nitek+ gave me 12 minutes of deco, which dropped to about 9 when I actually did it. I also had the Stinger in dive mode, and after the Nitek cleared the Stinger still gave me 20 minutes. So I surfaced and bent it.

The LDS I used to work at part-time in England is the only one for miles around and seems to make a lot of money. But now it's mostly a sausage factory of first-time students, and it has nothing of interest for me any more. They've never bothered to get air clean enough for nitrox tanks, they charge a lot for air, and the prices in their shop are truly outrageous. Faced with THAT as my LDS I'd be on my computer all the time.

But the shops I referred to weren't like that. They offered quality service and products, and had good experienced knowledgeable staff. But that costs money, city center rents and taxes have gone up a lot everywhere, and they saw many customers coming in for expert advice and demos who they never saw again. Some of these customers later came in with boxes of gear they'd bought mail-order but didn't know how to assemble and set up. Other people came in with gear that was defective oput of the box and wanted the shop to process the return for them. At first the shop helped, but after a while they got fed up and refused to help, at any price. I don't blame them. I get the same here.

The time came when they had to call a halt. Someone here posted statistics some time back of LDS closures. I forget what the figures were, but they were quite dramatic.

It isn't just diving that's affected this way. I used to be a hi-fi buff and there were quite a few high quality shops around. That was before the days of the internet. Now they've all (all) gone. In my home town of Oxford in England 10 years ago there were 5 or 6 large and very well stocked record/CD shops, and true to Oxford's reputation you could get absolutely anything there. If it had been produced anywhere in the world at some time, you'd find it. Now all we have is 3 or 4 Border's-style shops stocking just a few of the more popular lines. Anything else they have to order, and of course they can't get anything out-of-print. This has been a gradual process of degradation, but given what we now have I understand why most people now order via the internet.

There are lots of other relatively specialist areas where choice has all but vanished, thanks to the effects of the internet. Overall we're better of with it than we were before it came along, but there has been a high price to pay. Anyone engaged in specialist activities, and that includes scuba diving (and especially the more advanced diving that you and I are interested in) is likely before long to find considerable difficulty finding and buying things.

Edited by peterbj7, 13 July 2006 - 09:23 PM.

[PerroneFord]

I suppose you're right to a degree. Fortunately, I live in a geographic specalist area where my type of dive gear is readily available, and the audience is built in and rather captive. But even with that, they offer better pricing and selection than I can get on the internet. If you can imagine.

I have 5 major dive rite dealers near me, and the factory is 90 miles away. Salvo is 1.5 hours away. Halcyon is 1.5 hours. The world's longest cave system is 30 minutes. Zeagle is 3 hours away. Oxycheq is 6 hours and moving closer. DSS is a long way off, but we have several dealers within 2 hours. Golem is 4 hours, but I have a dealer 45 minutes away.

The problem I have is that in a resort area, you should have a similar captive audience. Sometimes, there are simply TOO MANY dive shops around. And they don't differentiate. I too was a hi-fi buff. Had some very nice gear, still have a few items left. But all the nice shops near me closed. However I realize I live in an area where it's not appreciated. So the demand isn't high enough to support the cost of the shop(s).

Just the way it goes sometimes. Market forces.

[Diverbrian]

Sorry Perrone, I edited my comment while you were posting yours. I agree wholeheartedly with you on the restrictions of the algorithms built into computers. I've found that the DiveRite algorithm works for me, as does the one in the VR3, and I feel comfortable relying on them (though not blindly, as I said in my edited post). The Suunto simply annoys me and I often end up ignoring it. After a recent sequence of three deep and long single tank recreational dives my Nitek+ gave me 12 minutes of deco, which dropped to about 9 when I actually did it. I also had the Stinger in dive mode, and after the Nitek cleared the Stinger still gave me 20 minutes. So I surfaced and bent it.

Sounds familar. I dive a VR3 for my normal computer with a VyTec for a back-up. I had a Cochrane in NC for a DAN study.

The VyTec goes into gauge mode a lot as I dive tri-mix most of the time. The numbers are large. I already owned it, so I kept it. I can read the bottom time easily and compare the time to the run time deco schedule written on my slate if the VR3 starts reading in a way to tell me that it is fouled up.

The second day of the NC trip, I did a test and left the VyTec in Nitrox mode as I was diving EAN30 down there. Sure enough, the VyTec surfaced bent while my VR3 and the Cochran had no issues at all. Funny part is that I could have predicted that.

The Suunto's are a nice computer for diving strictly recreational profiles. I have dove them since I certified. They aren't as conservative as some people think that they are (they marginally recognize some deep stop time.), but they aren't meant for advanced diving and seem to want to keep me in the water longer than other models of computer.

[Geek]

From what I can tell, quality LDS's aren't under real pressure. Crappy dive shops are under tremendous pressure. In the shops I visit, one appears on the verge of closing, another has moved about 90% of it's business to spearfishers, and the others are thriving with record sales.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the issues.

As far as this coming back to dive computers, I say spend your money where you'll get the best value. Not necessarily cheapest price, but best value. Maybe that's the LDS. Maybe it's not.

Air fills? Get real. I won't fill my tanks at a crappy LDS anyway. As it is, I drive nearly an hour away to get my tanks filled, when I have an LDS less than a mile from my house. I'd rather make the drive than be treated poorly. If you have a good LDS, support them by all means.

They may not be under pressure is FL, but in other parts of the country we don't have as many dive shops and the competition from the Internet has forced some very painful adjustment. The LDS I patronize I am quite pleased with, but they have had to make big adjustments in what they carry, generally narrowing their product lines in order to have enough volume to compete with Internet pricing on one line by abandoning another manufacturer's line.

There are only two shops close enough to my home for me to consider them convenient for fills.

[PerroneFord]

They may not be under pressure is FL, but in other parts of the country we don't have as many dive shops and the competition from the Internet has forced some very painful adjustment. The LDS I patronize I am quite pleased with, but they have had to make big adjustments in what they carry, generally narrowing their product lines in order to have enough volume to compete with Internet pricing on one line by abandoning another manufacturer's line.

There are only two shops close enough to my home for me to consider them convenient for fills.

Competitive pressure often forces businesses to streamline. Whether that pressure comes from internet, or a strong competitor on the next block.

What do you REALLLY need your LDS for? When it comes down to it, for you personally, what do you need them for? I expect this answer to be different for experienced divers and newer ones, but I am curious.

[hnladue]

What do I need my LDS for???? Well I won a trip to Toby thru them.... does that count??