100 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

Well I won a trip to Toby thru them.... does that count??

Who's Toby, and where does he live?

[Geek]

They may not be under pressure is FL, but in other parts of the country we don't have as many dive shops and the competition from the Internet has forced some very painful adjustment. The LDS I patronize I am quite pleased with, but they have had to make big adjustments in what they carry, generally narrowing their product lines in order to have enough volume to compete with Internet pricing on one line by abandoning another manufacturer's line.

There are only two shops close enough to my home for me to consider them convenient for fills.

Competitive pressure often forces businesses to streamline. Whether that pressure comes from internet, or a strong competitor on the next block.

What do you REALLLY need your LDS for? When it comes down to it, for you personally, what do you need them for? I expect this answer to be different for experienced divers and newer ones, but I am curious.

This thread started with a new diver looking for a computer. He has probably spent a bunch of time in an LDS looking at computers and getting a lot of information from a salesperson. If he hasn't done that, then he should. Now he may decide to buy something different than what that LDS carries, or he may find the LDS charges twice what he can find it for on the Internet. But what if he finds he can get a $300 computer at the LDS for $289 on the Internet? You seem to be saying screw the LDS who spent a bunch of time educating him. I consider that totally unethical and I wouldn't do it even if I were in FL.

Edited by Geek, 14 July 2006 - 01:43 PM.

[PerroneFord]

I am not saying this at all. In fact, the great bulk of my dive gear was purchased from an LDS. However, my preferred LDS's don't stock gear because there is no customer base for it. The customers are too savvy to buy gear that won't work. There are no high-pressure sales tactics, and no crazy markup on anything, because they know it won't fly. So when I go to the LDS, I get solid advice, have a selection of top-notch gear, and I get outstanding service. Most people aren't so lucky.

What I am saying is that LDS's that do not know how to stay competitive, who stock poor gear hoping to push high margin goods on unsuspecting consumers, and those who simply have poor attitudes or ignorant sales staff, I don't mind seeing close down. There seem to be a great many of these shops around.

Everyone seems to want to have an LDS that is just around the corner, has exactly the gear they want, and they want it at a super-competitive price. That simply doesn't exist for most people. Four of my LDS's are about and hour to two hours from me. To me, that's local. They all know me by first name. The staff at the shop 1 mile from me doesn't know my name, even though I've been in there 30+ times. Whether they survive or don't, I could care less.

[Geek]

I am not saying this at all. In fact, the great bulk of my dive gear was purchased from an LDS. However, my preferred LDS's don't stock gear because there is no customer base for it. The customers are too savvy to buy gear that won't work. There are no high-pressure sales tactics, and no crazy markup on anything, because they know it won't fly. So when I go to the LDS, I get solid advice, have a selection of top-notch gear, and I get outstanding service. Most people aren't so lucky.

What I am saying is that LDS's that do not know how to stay competitive, who stock poor gear hoping to push high margin goods on unsuspecting consumers, and those who simply have poor attitudes or ignorant sales staff, I don't mind seeing close down. There seem to be a great many of these shops around.

Everyone seems to want to have an LDS that is just around the corner, has exactly the gear they want, and they want it at a super-competitive price. That simply doesn't exist for most people. Four of my LDS's are about and hour to two hours from me. To me, that's local. They all know me by first name. The staff at the shop 1 mile from me doesn't know my name, even though I've been in there 30+ times. Whether they survive or don't, I could care less.

Then I don't understand why you seem to be disagreeing with what I originally recommended.

[PerroneFord]

Then I don't understand why you seem to be disagreeing with what I originally recommended.

I thought your original recommendation was perfect. When you changed it to include the Gekko, my only exception was that it's probably worth getting a computer you can download. When you added the idea of buying at the LDS because of the "added value", I simply wanted to caveat that by saying not all LDS's meet that criteria, and from what I can tell, many do not add any value, and in fact cause more harm than good.

As I said, if he's got a good LDS, by all means support them. I know I do.

[Geek]

Then I don't understand why you seem to be disagreeing with what I originally recommended.

I thought your original recommendation was perfect. When you changed it to include the Gekko, my only exception was that it's probably worth getting a computer you can download. When you added the idea of buying at the LDS because of the "added value", I simply wanted to caveat that by saying not all LDS's meet that criteria, and from what I can tell, many do not add any value, and in fact cause more harm than good.

As I said, if he's got a good LDS, by all means support them. I know I do.

My comment about the LDS was in reaction to his comment that he didn't seem to care about the LDS. My impression was the LDS carried the Suunto line and had spent a good bit of time with him walking him through the models and features. He indicated that was not the case in a later post.

Regarding the idea of spending an extra $100 for a download feature, most computers that have this feature also require a download kit that needs to be purchased separately and half the time you can't find the download kit. If the kit does need to be purchased separately, then we are talking another $100 or so. I don't know specifically about Suunto.

An extra $100-200 for this feature seems out of sync with your suggestion of diving tables for the first 50 dives. For that much money, I still think he should look at the Gekko before making his choice. Based on the fact that he is new to diving, and this is his first equipment purchase, I would suggest he limit his spending on the computer, and buy the best regulators he can afford.

Ultimately, he may decide he likes the more expensive model for totally different reasons. I have a Sherwood Wisdom I like because the characters are really big and easy to read. I paid double the amount I am recommending he spend for this one feature. It really doesn't do anything an under $300 computer does, so I don't think I would recommend it to anyone else unless they indicated that large, easy to read, characters were important to them.

[Diverbrian]

Well I won a trip to Toby thru them.... does that count??

Who's Toby, and where does he live?

Perrone,

Toby is short for Tobermory, ONT. That is the home of one of the finest wooden barques sitting at 110 ft. that you will ever see.

It is also called a place that redefines the term cold water diving .

[Diverbrian]

Then I don't understand why you seem to be disagreeing with what I originally recommended.

I thought your original recommendation was perfect. When you changed it to include the Gekko, my only exception was that it's probably worth getting a computer you can download. When you added the idea of buying at the LDS because of the "added value", I simply wanted to caveat that by saying not all LDS's meet that criteria, and from what I can tell, many do not add any value, and in fact cause more harm than good.

As I said, if he's got a good LDS, by all means support them. I know I do.

My comment about the LDS was in reaction to his comment that he didn't seem to care about the LDS. My impression was the LDS carried the Suunto line and had spent a good bit of time with him walking him through the models and features. He indicated that was not the case in a later post.

Regarding the idea of spending an extra $100 for a download feature, most computers that have this feature also require a download kit that needs to be purchased separately and half the time you can't find the download kit. If the kit does need to be purchased separately, then we are talking another $100 or so. I don't know specifically about Suunto.

An extra $100-200 for this feature seems out of sync with your suggestion of diving tables for the first 50 dives. For that much money, I still think he should look at the Gekko before making his choice. Based on the fact that he is new to diving, and this is his first equipment purchase, I would suggest he limit his spending on the computer, and buy the best regulators he can afford.

Ultimately, he may decide he likes the more expensive model for totally different reasons. I have a Sherwood Wisdom I like because the characters are really big and easy to read. I paid double the amount I am recommending he spend for this one feature. It really doesn't do anything an under $300 computer does, so I don't think I would recommend it to anyone else unless they indicated that large, easy to read, characters were important to them.

When I bought my download kit, it was $150 (The VR3's was more). I do find that of value simply for reminding my that my profile wasn't quite as nice as I thought it was and showing me my precise dive. It also makes great log book pages. The print-off's and nitrogen loading graphs can help a diver better understand why certain profiles aren't as nice as others.

The nice thing is that the person wouldn't have to buy the download kit on most of the computers right away. That data is there waiting for them if they ever want to tap into it. I have no experience with the Gekko as I was not looking at entry level computers at the point in time when it was introduced. I have used the Cobra (since sold), the Mosquito, the VyTec and the VR3 quite a bit. The Vyper is nothing more than a wrist mounted Cobra without the pressure indication to my understanding.

As well, I do believe that a dive computer is one of those items that someone should make an effort to get from an LDS. With the exception of the Cobra and the VR3, all of mine have been replaced due to failure of the depth sensor. I have seen the VR3's screw up, but fortunately mine seems to be one of the good ones. The Cobra was just the wrong design for my later diving (no more console or one-gas computers for me) but I wouldn't call it a bad computer for someone diving recreational profiles. It makes this process much easier when you know someone at the LDS and can basically throw it on there counter and tell them that you want a new one. Heck, my LDS even fought with Suunto and won for me when Suunto tried to tell them that my VyTec was past warranty. That saved me $200.00 on a new computer right there (Suunto wanted to pro-rate my warranty on the VyTec and charge me $200.00 to replace it.) . Oh, and they loaned me a computer for my diving while I was waiting for my new VyTec.

The models that I use are simply too much computer for a newer diver who isn't sure of what kind of diving that they will be doing later. I will be honest and say that I am not familar with the simple nitrox computers of most of the other makers. I will say that my dive buddy bought a simple nitrox computer from Scuba Toys that she likes very much and that I was impressed with as far as being able to read the thing.

[OTWdiver]

A thought about the computer purchase. The idea that you are able to use your tables is solid. Electronics and water don’t mix. That being said. I think you should be using a computer on every dive. I think you need to understand what the computer is telling you. That understanding comes from your ability to use your dive tables. If there is a situation your computer gives you bad information you have a basic understanding of the tables and will know something does not jive. A week battery or failing computer can give inaccurate information.
The question now is what type of computer does the beginning diver buy. Not necessarily an easy question. The beginning diver does not know where this sport will take them. They don’t know enough to ask the intelligent question or understand the answer, they are beginners.
I recommend them to find someone who is not the salesman. The end user, true comparison type reviews. Not the review followed by a two page glossy ad.
The ability to be Nitrox compatible, yes, added gasses, who knows? This is a beginner who is probably trying to figure out what you meant by gage mode.

There are several brand choices that are able to offer different models. They are excellent computers but you only get what features they come with. As your diving changes your needs change. Does the $500 computer change with you , most likely not. How long will the technology last before it becomes outdated, who knows? Will it still serve your needs?
Several persons above have talked about the Cochran computers. They are upgradeable. From single gas air, to Nitrox, to multiple gases. They are not cheap but with one, you are able to change the features. Pay for what you need now. Make additions to it later as your diving changes, if it does.
You are a beginner.
Don’t expect everything you buy to be in your gear bag five years from now. You are spending a lot of money true. The value in the purchase is not only told by the price. The value might come from the fact that this computer is still in your bag five years down the road and even then it can be sent in the be upgraded to fit your changing dive needs or adapt to the latest technology. It won’t be required to act as a trade in or a paperweight.

[BradfordNC]

The second day of the NC trip, I did a test and left the VyTec in Nitrox mode as I was diving EAN30 down there. Sure enough, the VyTec surfaced bent while my VR3 and the Cochran had no issues at all. Funny part is that I could have predicted that.

The Suunto's are a nice computer for diving strictly recreational profiles.

sounds more like operator error to me.
NC diving is my backyard, and i have been on several SD and RWB dive trips out here, so i have done pretty much the exact profiles you did while you were here (oh yeah, with the exception that on those trips the charter captain didn't limit our dives).
i have been diving Vytecs exclusively since 2002 and have never had one bent or lockout.

strictly recreational use????
the vytec is one of the few computers on the list allowed for use as a primary computer at Bikini Atoll.
if these are recreational dives, then ok.
but when i was there, i used dual vytecs and had no problems.
oh yeah, contrary to popular belief, the Vytec is a full decompression computer.
just read the manual.

my roommate brought 2 VR-3s and was rotating them about every other day because he kept bending them.

cochrans aren't even allowed because they have yet to survive a week on the island.

i just finished a week of diving nitrox using the Vytec.
absolutely no problems after 26 dives in that week.

one of my dive buddies has actualy switched from his Nitek He to the Vytec after seeing the experiance i've had with it.

oh yeah, and the comments about the wireless transmission for the pressure gauge.
the manual says to switch the battery every year or 100 dives.
just to find out i decided to dive until the low battery indicator kicked in.
250 dives later i decided to change the battery, but it still hadn't failed.
i now change it every 200 dives. i have yet to have a failure.

in that time, i have had 2 seperate dive buddies whose analog pressure gauges have catastrophicaly failed. one of them has had it happen twice. so excuse me if i'm not exactly convinced of the "failure proof" convential hose guage.

i can also download the dive profile to my laptop, and with the wireless airgauge, that includes all info relating to my gas source, to include an extremely accurate SAC rate for the entire dive.

oh wait, but thats just a gimmick for "recreational" divers.

so i must be a recreational diver.


**note to Brian - tirad isn't aimed at you, i just qouted you for the start. everything after that is compilation of other gripes.
oh, and glad to hear you enjoyed the U-352. now you have done a german sub, time to dive a WWII American sub and see the difference.

Edited by BradfordNC, 17 July 2006 - 08:03 PM.

[PerroneFord]

i can also download the dive profile to my laptop, and with the wireless airgauge, that includes all info relating to my gas source, to include an extremely accurate SAC rate for the entire dive.

Question,

When you download from the Vytec, and get your breathing information, does it just do an overall SAC, or does it show your breathing rates fluctuating throughout the dive. If it has the ability to show fluctuating breathing rates, this would be incredibly helpful as a teaching/learning tool.

-P

[BradfordNC]

i can also download the dive profile to my laptop, and with the wireless airgauge, that includes all info relating to my gas source, to include an extremely accurate SAC rate for the entire dive.

Question,

When you download from the Vytec, and get your breathing information, does it just do an overall SAC, or does it show your breathing rates fluctuating throughout the dive. If it has the ability to show fluctuating breathing rates, this would be incredibly helpful as a teaching/learning tool.

-P

PF,

it will show you several things.
not only the PSI at the start and end of every dive, but the cubic footage of gas that was in the tanks, remaining at the end of the dive, and how much was consumed during the dive.

the SAC rate it gives you is the overal rate for the dive.
which will tell you plenty of info on its own.
i can look at the SAC rates alone and tell you if i was diving Little River, Madison, or Peacock.

but with just a little bit of work you can figure out SAC rate for any portion of a dive as well.
with the software you can pull up the entire dive profile, and for any point in that dive you select, it will show you the depth, dive time, ndl, temp, and psi in your tanks.
so if you want to figure SAC rate for a certain portion of the dive, simply get the starting information for that segment and the ending info for that segment, and do the math.

[Diverbrian]

I don't typically dive straight enriched air nitrox/ air anymore. So I seldom get the opportunity to compare my two favorites side by side.

Bending the VR3 is not difficult. You have to do the deep stops on it or it will bend. I was diving with Vinny and we managed this real easily by me simply flashing Vinny the two minute signal on each of my two deep stops. He simply continued his ascent as generated by the deco software on his personal organizer. We cleared (as in good to leave the water) within a minute of each other this way. The problem is that if you do those deep stops, then you will tend to build up shallow deco time on the VyTec. We didn't have time to clear those shallow deco stops on the VyTec with the profiles that we were allowed. I had time to dive one or the other, not both. So, I chose the VR3 as I was diving some light mix leftover from my last dive (and topped off) on the first day. I did clear the VyTec on that day. I told the VyTec that was diving EAN29 to allow it to clear as I don't dive salt and actually enjoyed watching the fish go by at 15 ft. while I am warm instead of freezing my butt off at 15 ft. in brown/blackish water with no fish life (my usual diving). I dove EAN30 like everyone else after that.

[Hexkraut]

All my LDS carries are Suunto. Obviously I would like to have some other computers to compare. If I decide the Suunto model I like and the LDS carries it for a reasonable price even up to a $50 difference then its ok and I'll get it there. Otherwise I will take my business elsewhere be it the internet or some other DS.

[captsteve]

The Lds in Hatteras highly recommends the Vytec. I have and aeris.