67 replies to this topic

[Walter]

PADI has a forum for dive professionals or divers to find shops, dive buddies, job opportunities...etc. It's maintained on their site as a membership service to their divers. So that's a bad thing?

Why do you think it's a bad thing?

I personally find it an offensive comparison. I am one of those PADI instructors you are all talking about and none of you know me nor have taken any class from me. If you are going to label and generalize - why not just pause for just one moment and think about WHO you are talking about. We are people too. I take teaching very seriously. Teaching isn't my full time job. It is my passion to help people discover scuba diving. I put everything I have of myself into a class. Too much at times.

So why keep it up if at every turn I am just going to be labeled as a side show joke happy meal? Thank you gentlemen.

Nicolle,

I'm surprised at you. Aren't you one of those who believes PADI's strength is it's uniformity and structure? I've been told many times that a great aspect of a PADI course is any PADI Instructor can step in at any point and seamlessly replace the original instructor. How does that differ from McDonalds? I know I can go to any McDonalds and get exactly what I've found at another McDonalds thousands of miles away. Why are you offended by the concept?

[Diverbrian]

Ok, let's all step away from our keyboards and relax. The conversation is taking a path that is not healthy for blood pressures .

The fact of the matter is that we are all going to support the agencies that we work with as professionals for whatever reasons that we have. There is nothing wrong with that.

If someone wants to crossover to another agency, then they likely have a good reason as well. Some personalities and/or business opportunities just don't fit well into certain situations.

Let's all try to remember that we would like to meet on a trip and dive together one of these days!

[cmt489]

This is a reminder that NO agency bashing will be allowed on this site, period. If certain members insist upon continuing to speak poorly of PADI in a generalized sense - ie comparing it to McDonalds or how PADI simply can not turn out good divers, this thread will be closed and/or removed from the board.

As for the actual topic that this thread was created to discuss, my two cents are as follows:

I expect to have to purchase materials to take a course. I guess that it is the 9 years of University under my belt talking. Personally, I do not want to have photocopies of course materials supplied to me when the materials are supposed to be part of the course. When I took my courses, the price of those books was simply part of the cost of them. What I do believe is that certain resort operations opt not to include the materials in order to maximize any profits that they may make on the course. Personally, given that they are working with copryrighted material and the fact that the course materials are supposed to be supplied to the student, I see these operations as having 2 choices: 1) increase the cost of the course; or 2) to make a smaller profit on the courses provided. Since many of these dive operations are not likely making much money on these courses, I suspect they will have to opt for the first option. In any event, personally, I am not critical of PADI for taking this stance.

[Walter]

This is a reminder that NO agency bashing will be allowed on this site, period. If certain members insist upon continuing to speak poorly of PADI in a generalized sense - ie comparing it to McDonalds or how PADI simply can not turn out good divers, this thread will be closed and/or removed from the board.

How is a comparison to McDonalds, "speaking poorly of PADI?" Sounds like McDonalds bashing to me. If you maintain that comparing an organization to McDonalds is the same as saying they are low quality, then McDonalds could get quite upset at the implication.

There are PADI instructors who do turn out good divers, I know a few of them personally. I've never met Nicolle, I've certainly never seen her teach. I would assume she does an excellent job teaching.

[jextract]

I went to your website. So when will you have training programs in SoCal?

Jamie,

I can do a program anytime. Getting students from the SD board without SD getting some form of compensation is really treading on thin ice, I'm guessing. So, why don't we do a course in conjunction with a tech clinic/tek prep course in Southern California? No one has said anything yet to me about "business" on the site, but by way of "tribute" I'd do a tech clinic. I could do a clinic for a group, but to do a tek prep course, I'd need properly equipped divers with AOW cards or higher. The PDIC Instructor Course is 7 days and costs $1,500.00. All PDIC instructor trainers have been asked to teach at this rate. $500.00 goes to PDIC and includes all your books and kits. You'll emerge as a PDIC Instructor and PDIC Nitrox Instructor. You'll be taught how to teach the PDIC Open Water, Advanced Open Water, Rescue, Dive Supervisor, Assistant Instructor, Nitrox and Nitrox Dive Supervisor Programs. If you wish to teach specialty courses, I'll evaluate your expertise at each activity and teach you how to teach those courses. PDIC charges $35.00 per specialty (a one time fee). As a PDIC instructor, you can enter the Universal Referral Program and complete Open Water training for students who have had class and pool training through IDEA, NAUI, SSI, PDIC and YMCA.

~ Trace

Trace, when you're ready I'm ready. Please let me know when you'll be here and I will absolutely be thrilled to take your course. Please let me know what I need for the tech prep course as well, as I'd like to do that, too.

I'm so "in" that if I were any more "in" I'd be past!

[Dive_Girl]

This is a reminder that NO agency bashing will be allowed on this site, period. If certain members insist upon continuing to speak poorly of PADI in a generalized sense - ie comparing it to McDonalds or how PADI simply can not turn out good divers, this thread will be closed and/or removed from the board.

How is a comparison to McDonalds, "speaking poorly of PADI?" Sounds like McDonalds bashing to me. If you maintain that comparing an organization to McDonalds is the same as saying they are low quality, then McDonalds could get quite upset at the implication.

There's no need to be coy regarding the implications of the comparison. If you don't claim to get it fine - I believe others do.

You all will not often find me posting about other agencies - do a search. I find no value in spending my time discussing an agency that is not my own. I actually find it somewhat out of line when you are not a professional of that agency. You who are not PADI made your decision to teach for another agency - so there you go. Why continually pick at PADI?

I just though it appropriate to call everyone's attention to the generalizations that were starting to occur here in this thread when there are individual people comments were affecting. I am one of them. And it's not just about who I am as instructor, it's who I am as a diver and who others are as divers.

I am not some fast prepared meat product. When I get offended - I let people know. It is my right. And to act coy in wondering why I am offended which implies I had nothing to be offended about is disrepectful.

Here is Peter's post again, perhaps we need to refocus on the question at hand that every student must buy a manual for the course they are doing:

PADI recently introduced a requirement that every student must buy a manual for the course they are doing, and they have just thought of a way of enforcing it. .Down here in Belize I have to pay 50% import duties on these books and the freight charges, which makes them very expensive. We also often hjave students who are going on a land tour after they leave us and don't want the weight of a book with them. I was visited by a PADI rep a few days ago, who tacitly accepted that commercial considerations played a significant part in PADI's decision.

What do you think? Is this a reasonable safety-related requirement, or is it primarily a way of PADI making more money? I run a PADI 5* center but I'm seriously considering decamping to another agency.

and cmt489 - your perspective on this was enlightening. I hadn't thought of it in those terms. I have also been struggling with this change in standards from a pricing standpoint for some classes (not all, but some) for our shop.

[ScubaDadMiami]

During my check-out dives, very few skills were actually tested. Frankly, I was surprised how easy it was.

I'd be interested in knowing what you were not tested on in open water because that could be a Standards violation.

[PerroneFord]

This is a reminder that NO agency bashing will be allowed on this site, period.

If only this were true...

[cmt489]

This is a reminder that NO agency bashing will be allowed on this site, period.

If only this were true...

It is true. If you see something that you perceive to be agency bashing, report the post. We investigate all reported posts. Also keep in mind that debate is different than bashing. Debate is allowed.

Again, let's remember what the question was posed in this thread and please stick to the issue posted by Peter.

[TraceMalin]

In a perfect world the dive facility in question would have ordered enough materials ahead of time, but the diving industry is far different than a college bookstore. Colleges have a certain enrollment and can stock books ahead of time with good estimation of the number needed to supply demand. I may have 5 nitrox books left after teaching a program for Kamala and Brad could show up with some Army buddies and say, "Hey, Trace, can you teach nitrox to all these guys in my A-team?" Well, now I've got 5 books for maybe 12 guys? If they can't share, we'd have a problem. The diving industry is a lot smaller than people think and possesses a lot less capital than people think. There are often supply problems especially when dealing with materials written in languages other than English. Yes, the materials are copyrighted, but agencies don't haul their instructors into court when a student information card, test or workbook is photocopied... well... at least not yet.

I think every instructor out there wants to teach scuba diving to the best of his or her abilities. When it comes to diving abilities, diving isn't just a theoretical sport. Theory is the easy part. Most students complain that learning decompression and no-decompression (yes, in my case, we teach decompression) tables is the hardest part of diving. That should be the easy part. Learning to dive should be hard. Diving is as much a physical activity as it is a mental one. Who learns karate from a textbook? Why is it that golfers look toward the Arnold Palmers and the Tiger Woods to copy the swing, but the video materials we scuba instructors have usually reflect poor diving. Most of you have never seen good diving let alone great diving. What you think is good (watching most instructors) is substandard. How can divers not be mediocre if they aren't seeing great diving? Great diving is now out on DVD for $44.95 if you know where to look.

Back on topic... if an instructor is trying his or her best to teach the best diving he or she can through an agency, wouldn't it be nice if that agency cut the instructor some slack from time to time? Peter isn't living in Chiswick (by the way, Peter, that's the new London "hot spot" since you may not know what's going on back home), but in Belize. Shipping can be dificult and expensive. Money for additional training materials may be needed to pay Damien the diesel mechanic because the engine went and the last thing you need is an agency that isn't understanding and supportive of your efforts as a professional instructor.

If anyone remembers the movie, "Back to School" with Rodney Dangerfield there was a scene in which his wealthy entrepreneurial character Thornton Melon was attending a business class in college having never gone to college as a young man. The elitist professor teaching the course was discussing how to create and run a company. Melon points out that he had forgotten "a bunch of stuff." The professor had forgotten the kickbacks to the planning commission, the bribes to the inspectors, the money for waste disposal ("I don't know if you know who runs that business, but it certainly isn't the Boy Scouts!"), etc. The professor chastises him by saying that bribes and mafia pay-offs maybe the way he runs a business, but at that university they won't be learning such nonsense. The professor then asks the class, "Now, where should we build our company?" Melon replies, "How about fantasy land?"

Things become more difficult for operators when an agency that is demanding more from them in terms of purchasing materials and creating higher sales is at the same time flooding the market with as many dive professionals as possible. Many instructors are happy to be working for minimum wage and hoping to survive on tips from tourists who think a $10.00 tip was great and the instructor can't by milk for that amount.

Basically, diving is an impoverished cottage industry hiding behind the facade of a corporate image. It's just a lot nicer when your agency knows this and doesn't live in fantasy land.

~ Trace

Edited by TraceMalin, 02 August 2006 - 08:11 PM.

[Dive_Girl]

Now I find THAT to be an great explantory informative post Trace, and one that has great concepts that I am going to use when talking with my local rep, thank you. In particular the following:

In a perfect world the dive facility in question would have ordered enough materials ahead of time, but the diving industry is far different than a college bookstore. Colleges have a certain enrollment and can stock books ahead of time with good estimation of the number needed to supply demand. I may have 5 nitrox books left after teaching a program for Kamala and Brad could show up with some Army buddies and say, "Hey, Trace, can you teach nitrox to all these guys in my A-team?" Well, now I've got 5 books for maybe 12 guys? If they can't share, we'd have a problem. The diving industry is a lot smaller than people think and possesses a lot less capital than people think. There are often supply problems especially when dealing with materials written in languages other than English. Yes, the materials are copyrighted, but agencies don't haul their instructors into court when a student information card, test or workbook is photocopied... well... at least not yet.

if an instructor is trying his or her best to teach the best diving he or she can through an agency, wouldn't it be nice if that agency cut the instructor some slack from time to time? Peter isn't living in Chiswick (by the way, Peter, that's the new London "hot spot" since you may not know what's going on back home), but in Belize. Shipping can be dificult and expensive. Money for additional training materials may be needed to pay Damien the diesel mechanic because the engine went and the last thing you need is an agency that isn't understanding and supportive of your efforts as a professional instructor.

And I totally remember Back to School and that was a great reference, not associating with kickbacks, but simply because there are SO MANY little costs that people (sometimes our agencies included) just don't consider.

[ScubaDadMiami]

There is more to this whole thing than meets the first glance. So, permit me some liberty to put my spin on things here. I can't claim everything here to be a fact. However, I have my theories, and I think they are reasonable and make good sense.

Every agency has a philosophy about how things should be done. In a general sense, my interpretation of how PADI does things makes good sense from many standpoints. So, I will tie-in the text purchase requirement to their philosophy, and I do not intend to go the route of saying that they are forcing these purchases for the sake of profit.

What PADI does is to find some of the best in every aspect of the industry. Then, they ask those experts how to do things, and get those experts to come up with the materials related to their respective fields. This includes the texts and other training materials. Their theory is that they get the best, and then they design their training in accordance with the teachings of the very best, and they train their instructors and professionals to follow the protocols designed by the top professionals in the industry. That makes pretty good sense, doesn't it?

There is a second reason for doing things this way. Should a PADI professional ever get sued for the injury or death of a student, using these materials and following these training protocols is a tremendous asset in court. After all, it is quite supportive of a defense case to show that you followed the protocol of the best expert in the world on a subject. That means that you rose to the "standard of care" that is required of a diving professional in a professional relationship. Meeting this standard means that there is no case against you, and you will win in any suit brought against you (because the law requires a finding of the violation of this standard of care in order for a person suing to win a case). From the legal standpoint, so long as that professional sticks to the PADI formula for safety and success, this assists in maintaining a viable defense in a court of law, and it makes great sense from a legal standpoint.

However, there is more to avoiding liability than just doing the right thing. The successful litigant needs to document that the right thing was done in order to present this in a court of law. How can an instructor prove that the material was covered properly? Well, the instructor can bring in lesson plans, cue cards and the like to cover what was done in the classrooom and the water. Other students will corroborate that this is how the class went. Last, by showing that the student in fact purchased the text, the student will then have a pretty tough time showing that the material was not covered in training. The book shows that they student had the book, and now the student can't claim that he/she did not get the required information from multiple sources (classroom, pool sessions, open water sessions, review of the exams, reading materials, tapes/CDs/DVDs, etc.). So, having something showing that the student received a book (in addition to all of the other facets of the defense mentioned above) serves to insulate the instructor, the shop, and the training agency from liability.

Profit was probably not the main motive here. There are other agencies that follow different philosophies on risk management, and there are then differences resulting in training materials based upon those differing viewpoints. It is not necessarily that one is right or wrong. It is more a question of finding a good match for your style.

[peterbj7]

Oh dear, I have opened a can of worms! It wasn't my intention in this thread to "bash" PADI, but to criticise some of their actions. I do not photocopy PADI materials and I wasn't proposing that. It just seems unreasonable to me, and to others, that (say) a husband and a wife doing the same course can't use the same manual during their preparation. Clearly if time dictates that they need to be studying at the same instant they will need a manual each, but that's not the scenario I'm considering.

There are some school kids here that we are teaching to dive. They are very poor, and a single manual is costly for them. I'm giving them the course free, but they are paying the cash costs. Two of these kids are brother and sister, and PADI is now saying they MUST buy a manual each. To me that is totally unreasonable and driven purely by financial greed; it seems from this thread that many others agree with me.

I told PADI some months ago that Belize had changed its official stance on PADI manuals and the like. From being treated as educational materials not subject to import duties they now seem to be considered luxury items, to be taxed at the highest rate. My last shipment had 50% charges added to it. Belize Customs also add freight and other shipping costs to the cost of the goods before assessing them, and if the supplier doesn't charge for freight inside the US (common, and the case with PADI) Belize Customs impute what they think a "fair" charge should have been and add that. Non negotiable. This makes my buying cost for these things higher than the normal US selling price.

I told PADI this before they introduced their new rule and they said (verbally) that they might be able to "do something". When I asked them in my recent meeting with their rep I was told, essentially, "tough cookies".

I'm not knocking PADI "per se", but I sure have problems with how they behave. Hence my post and my present attitude.

[cmt489]

Peter - No one sees you as bashinig PADI or trying to do so. Your question has merit and is a great topic of discussion so long as everyone sticks to the question posed. Personally, I am glad you put this question out there and I encourage you to do so again. Please, don't feel bad for starting this very interesting thread!

[PerroneFord]

What PADI does is to find some of the best in every aspect of the industry. Then, they ask those experts how to do things, and get those experts to come up with the materials related to their respective fields.

Who was the consulted expert for the DSAT program? That is not a bash per se, I really am curious who they considered as the "best".

As to Peter's issue, I think it's reprehensible.

I have a photocopied Adv. Nitrox manual from TDI (bound) and one from IANTD, 3-ring binder. I guess they have different priorities.