67 replies to this topic

[chinacat46]

Peter,



What do you do if a student brings a book with him. You have no evidence that he bought a book yet he does have a book. This book could be borrowed from somebody else or it could be his copy but you have no way of knowing. How would you prove to PADI in this case that the student had a book? Seems there is a hole in their requirements of proof.



- Chuck

[peterbj7]

Peter,



What do you do if a student brings a book with him. You have no evidence that he bought a book yet he does have a book. This book could be borrowed from somebody else or it could be his copy but you have no way of knowing. How would you prove to PADI in this case that the student had a book? Seems there is a hole in their requirements of proof.



- Chuck

I'm instructed that (s)he has to bring the original purchase receipt and leave it with me. Yes, I know it's absurd and doesn't actually prove anything.

Their scheme is to include a decal in every manual they supply to dive centers in suspect areas like central America. I've seen one - looked quite an expensive production. They won't include them with manuals sold in Europe or the USA. Now, I encourage people who want to do courses to get the manuals well ahead of time, mostly in the USA/Canada. I told the rep this, and that for three years I've been encouraging people to read the manual and send me the "knowledge reviews" (tests) in email form so I can mark them and generally try to be helpful. He started to object that this would leave the manual intact but I stopped him (PADI policy is to require the student to tear pages out of the manual during training so that it can't be used by anyone else, nor indeed provide effective revision material).

His initial stance was that this would no longer be possible as they wouldn't have the now mandatory decal. When I said that this appeared to be letting the tail wag the dog and that I wouldn't be complying, that's when he came up with the idea of keeping the sales receipt. I wonder whether his bosses will approve that one?

The rep also neglected to tell me what I do with the 40-50 manuals I have in stock, as he didn't count them and leave me with the requisite number of decals. I can write out a sales invoice for the "sale" and attach it to the PIC application, but I'm sure you can see the flaw in that from PADI's perspective.

As I might have indicated, I don't see any safety or even significant training value in any of this. I suggested to the PADI rep that it seemed to be driven purely by commercial considerations, and although he said it wasn't he didn't seem totally convinced of that himself. When he said that PADI didn't care whether backpackers and others who didn't want the manual could chuck it and PADI wouldn't care, the commercial driver was confirmed so far as I was concerned.

I think I may take up Trace's idea. Trace, can you write to me (my email address is on my profile)?

[chinacat46]

I have to agree that this mainly to line the wallets of PADI. So I would suppose under these rules that even a married couple couldn't share a book since they each have to have their own decal. I remember the decal from my Instructor training. Their is one in the Instructor Canidates Workbook. everybody must have one and it is attached to their application. In that case I think it's worth having the workbook and mauals but I disagree with the requirement of making it manadatory for students. When I did my open water class I was backpacking in New Zealand. The last thing I wanted was a book to carry around for the rest of my trip. I did get a CD-ROM at a later date but they didn't even have the CD's out back then.

[jextract]

Thanks, all, for the fantastic discussion!!

I also have become very disenchanted with PADI. I chose them because my ultimate goal is to leave the hamster-wheel life behind and move somewhere tropical and use diving instruction as an income supplement; PADI is everywhere, therefore I believe(d) that it would be easier finding a job. This is a peripheral question (mods please feel free to split it off at your discretion), but how widespread are other agencies and what are the employment opportunities like? I'm making a decision pretty soon to enroll in the instructor training program and if I need to switch agencies I'd like to know.

Thanks in advance.

[TraceMalin]

Thanks, all, for the fantastic discussion!!

I also have become very disenchanted with PADI. I chose them because my ultimate goal is to leave the hamster-wheel life behind and move somewhere tropical and use diving instruction as an income supplement; PADI is everywhere, therefore I believe(d) that it would be easier finding a job. This is a peripheral question (mods please feel free to split it off at your discretion), but how widespread are other agencies and what are the employment opportunities like? I'm making a decision pretty soon to enroll in the instructor training program and if I need to switch agencies I'd like to know.

Thanks in advance.

Yeah, it's often easier to "find a job" in diving if you're PADI. It's the same as "finding a job" at McDonald's if your dream is to work in the restaurant business. McDonald's is everywhere. You don't make much more as a diving instructor at times. The boat captains and the shop managers can make enough to live. Most instructors don't do well at getting by, get fed up with poverty, and start looking for other means of income. Now, if you compare diving to the restaurant industry. PADI is like McDonald's in many ways. When you walk into McDonald's you know what kind of burgers to expect. PADI pretty much outlines every step of diver training much the same way as McDonalds outlines how to make a burger. Just as McDonald's is renowned for great fries, PADI has some great stuff. But, one can't become Chef Ramsey working at McDonald's because there is little room for creativity (yes, I know some PADI instructors will argue this point, but you have no where near the freedom I have so relax). Also, why be a peon at a resort when one can actually be the owner operator? You can start your own business and make more profit with each class you teach through another agency like PDIC. If I were a businessman I'd choose an agency other than PADI. But, I have no head for business which is why I'm poor. My students' skill & experience development comes way before any profit margins for me. I love to teach diving and when I can teach on my own terms I can make a burger that would make Chef Ramsey proud so to speak. I met an instructor who had been with PADI for years and he told me he never made any money by being PADI either. People forget that the diving business is business and someone who is resourceful and independent can make a difference and a living. Right now, I know of a PDIC instructor with three stores who is really making PADI unhappy because his business practices in the islands are outselling theirs.

~ Trace

[bluedolphin]

Thanks, all, for the fantastic discussion!!

I also have become very disenchanted with PADI. I chose them because my ultimate goal is to leave the hamster-wheel life behind and move somewhere tropical and use diving instruction as an income supplement; PADI is everywhere, therefore I believe(d) that it would be easier finding a job. This is a peripheral question (mods please feel free to split it off at your discretion), but how widespread are other agencies and what are the employment opportunities like? I'm making a decision pretty soon to enroll in the instructor training program and if I need to switch agencies I'd like to know.

Thanks in advance.

I don't know the answer to your question but once you get one Instructor Cert is it difficlut to cross over to another agency? I think it would be far easier to cross over from PADI to NAUI or SSI or some other agency then the other way around. Again, just a guess I don't know.

I do know some people don't know any other agencies other then PADI exist (how sad).

[ScubaDadMiami]

It doesn't matter to me which way you go one way or the other. So, I have no agenda here. I can only relate my own experiences.

I was a PADI DM years ago, and I decided to become a NAUI instructor (eventhough it required me to repeat some training) precisely because of the freedom to create and instruct in the best way that would serve my students. NAUI is a major, well known, long established agency with centers over most of the globe, and I wanted to stick with a major player in order to assure a good chance of remaining employed in the event of relocation.

After that, I also became an IANTD instructor, and I was pleased with my association there. They are also well established in many places though certainly not to the extent of an agency like NAUI or PADI.

[ScubaDadMiami]

Thanks, all, for the fantastic discussion!!

I also have become very disenchanted with PADI. I chose them because my ultimate goal is to leave the hamster-wheel life behind and move somewhere tropical and use diving instruction as an income supplement; PADI is everywhere, therefore I believe(d) that it would be easier finding a job. This is a peripheral question (mods please feel free to split it off at your discretion), but how widespread are other agencies and what are the employment opportunities like? I'm making a decision pretty soon to enroll in the instructor training program and if I need to switch agencies I'd like to know.

Thanks in advance.

I don't know the answer to your question but once you get one Instructor Cert is it difficlut to cross over to another agency? I think it would be far easier to cross over from PADI to NAUI or SSI or some other agency then the other way around. Again, just a guess I don't know.

I do know some people don't know any other agencies other then PADI exist (how sad).

Crossing over can be as simple as filling out paperwork with some agencies. Others will treat the candidate almost as if without a professional designation until completion of the course work. It really runs the spectrum.

In my experience, almost all candidates crossing over from another agency required much remedial work, and some did not even pass their cross over courses. Some were excellent. However, these candidates were very much in the minority.

[Walter]

Trace, where you're right, you're right. You hit the nail squarely on the head.

[Dive_Girl]

Their scheme is to include a decal in every manual they supply to dive centers in suspect areas like central America. I've seen one - looked quite an expensive production. They won't include them with manuals sold in Europe or the USA. Now, I encourage people who want to do courses to get the manuals well ahead of time, mostly in the USA/Canada. I told the rep this, and that for three years I've been encouraging people to read the manual and send me the "knowledge reviews" (tests) in email form so I can mark them and generally try to be helpful. He started to object that this would leave the manual intact but I stopped him (PADI policy is to require the student to tear pages out of the manual during training so that it can't be used by anyone else, nor indeed provide effective revision material).

His initial stance was that this would no longer be possible as they wouldn't have the now mandatory decal. When I said that this appeared to be letting the tail wag the dog and that I wouldn't be complying, that's when he came up with the idea of keeping the sales receipt. I wonder whether his bosses will approve that one?

The rep also neglected to tell me what I do with the 40-50 manuals I have in stock, as he didn't count them and leave me with the requisite number of decals. I can write out a sales invoice for the "sale" and attach it to the PIC application, but I'm sure you can see the flaw in that from PADI's perspective.

As I might have indicated, I don't see any safety or even significant training value in any of this. I suggested to the PADI rep that it seemed to be driven purely by commercial considerations, and although he said it wasn't he didn't seem totally convinced of that himself. When he said that PADI didn't care whether backpackers and others who didn't want the manual could chuck it and PADI wouldn't care, the commercial driver was confirmed so far as I was concerned.

Interestingly Peter, PADI's Third Quarter 2006 Training Bulletin seems to contradict what your local rep was telling you.

Knowledge Review Administrative Option:Retain or Document Diver Mastery

"PADI Scuba Diver, Open Water Diver, Adventures in Diving, Rescue Diver and Divemaster course standards require you to review completed course knowledge reviews with student divers to assure mastery of the information. For most courses, PADI standards also require you to collect and physically retain the knowledge reviews. Effective immediately, you have a choice — to either retain knowledge reviews as before, or, document in the student training record that you reviewed the completed knowledge reviews and had the diver sign the knowledge reviews verifying understanding. This change aligns knowledge review documentation options with the PADI Scuba Diver and Open Water Diver course standards (as announced in the Fourth Quarter 2005 Training Bulletin)."

I have been toiling as to the "change in standards" regarding course materials myself. According to the Fourth Quater 2005 Training Bulletin:

"Effective 1 January 2006, PADI Members must ensure that student divers and leadership-level course candidates have, in their possession, a personal set of current materials (as defined) for study and use during the course and for reference afterward.

Unfortunately, in some areas, PADI Members have been lending course materials to student divers. This new standard does not allow that; it ensures that PADI divers can realize the many benefits of having and retaining their own materials."

So I have summized: students need to have their own copy of materials for study and use during the course and for reference afterward and that I, as a PADI Member, will not be the one to lend/provide them a set during their course.

I have also concluded this is commerically driven.

[peterbj7]

One problem with being out here in the styxx is that mail often goes missing, in both directions. I don't think i ever received that copy of the Training Bulletin and I certainly don't recall that section if I did. Interesting that the PADI rep didn't seem aware of it either.

I should have thought that one set of materials between a couple would meet the second highlighted text, but I was quite vehemently assured by PADI that it is not so.

An extract from that text - "in.....possession a.....set of current materials.....for reference afterwards". Does this mean that every PADI-certified diver is expected to buy the latest manual for any discipline they're certified for?

On the subject of agencies to align with, it makes quite a difference where you're located. I am very much in a resort, where most visitors come to holiday. Some are dedicated divers but most are casual, and quite a few just once-a-year divers. Others come here expecting to learn. I try to convince these people to get into a dive club back home and dive at other times of the year, but I'm sure the vast majority don't do that. I therefore need to be with an agency that these people will recognise and whose card will unquestionably be accepted anywhere else the new diver may go.

For this reason, although I have great respect for Trace and hence for the agency he espouses (PDIC) I don't see membership of it being of any help to my business. NAUI however is a different matter, and I think it's likely that'll be the way I'll go. Practicalities may get in the way - I'm in Belize and rarely visit the USA (and these days that's too often) so may find it difficult to go through whatever processes I need to cross over.

Does anyone know definitively whether NAUI (or any other agency) has or is considering adopting any trade-restrictive practices akin to PADI's?

And I need to work with an agency with quality training materials, not just in glossy appearance (like PADI's) but in content and substance (unlike PADI's). Any recommendations?

The first thing to do is lose our 5* status so I can teach for another recreational agency (I already teach via IANTD for tech stuff). Although I guess that'll happen anyway. I'm not sure whether I'll keep my PADI PIRA status - does anyone see any value in it? I have too much money tied up in my personal PADI ratings to drop them, but I'll always choose another agency's product if I can.

I would like to think that other dive businesses would take a similar stand and hurt PADI in the only place that matters - the wallet - but that's probably wishful thinking.

[Dive_Girl]

One problem with being out here in the styxx is that mail often goes missing, in both directions. I don't think I ever received that copy of the Training Bulletin and I certainly don't recall that section if I did. Interesting that the PADI rep didn't seem aware of it either.

I'll PM you the link for the Training Bulletins online as you might find that more useful to you than relying on mail.

[TraceMalin]

On the subject of agencies to align with, it makes quite a difference where you're located. I am very much in a resort, where most visitors come to holiday. Some are dedicated divers but most are casual, and quite a few just once-a-year divers. Others come here expecting to learn. I try to convince these people to get into a dive club back home and dive at other times of the year, but I'm sure the vast majority don't do that. I therefore need to be with an agency that these people will recognise and whose card will unquestionably be accepted anywhere else the new diver may go.

For this reason, although I have great respect for Trace and hence for the agency he espouses (PDIC) I don't see membership of it being of any help to my business. NAUI however is a different matter, and I think it's likely that'll be the way I'll go. Practicalities may get in the way - I'm in Belize and rarely visit the USA (and these days that's too often) so may find it difficult to go through whatever processes I need to cross over.

Does anyone know definitively whether NAUI (or any other agency) has or is considering adopting any trade-restrictive practices akin to PADI's?

And I need to work with an agency with quality training materials, not just in glossy appearance (like PADI's) but in content and substance (unlike PADI's). Any recommendations?

I would like to think that other dive businesses would take a similar stand and hurt PADI in the only place that matters - the wallet - but that's probably wishful thinking.

That's too bad, Peter. I was going to fly down and cross you over myself. I'm signing the PDIC Instructor Trainer contract tomorrow.

As far as certification card recognition goes, I think that those days are way behind us. Thanks to blackberries, cell phone internet access, laptops and the rest, there is likely to be no problem whatsoever with certification cards especially among the RSTC, WRSTC and Universal Referral Program members. Certification cards have been inappropriately used as weapons in the past by dive center staff and owners to strong arm taking training at their facilities. PADI's only real hold on the diving market is that theirs is the world's most "recognized" card. They like to make people think that "recognized" is the same thing as "accepted" but that isn't true. If a PADI facility refused to accept a PDIC certification, the PDIC diver merely needs to call or email PDIC and that diver will be speaking directly to one of the presidents and not just an office employee. In no time, PDIC HQ would contact PADI HQ and heads would roll.

If one equates dive training agencies to organized crime, ACUC, BSAC, CMAS, IDEA, NAUI, SDI, SSI, PADI, PDIC and YMCA are all crime families. PADI's tactics in the past by creating fear in the resort and dive travel industries caused IDEA, NASDS, NAUI, PDIC, SSI and YMCA to cooperate by forming the Universal Referral Program. SSI took over NASDS so now the major crime families out of North America are ACUC, IDEA, NAUI, SSI, PADI, PDIC, YMCA along with SDI. PADI doesn't like to play well with others and wants to dominate the world, much like the US government, and like the government hides behind a great propoganda campaign. NAUI, PDIC, SSI, IDEA and the YMCA are like the Italian mafia - a few families trying to make money the old-fashioned way (teaching quality diving). They pretty much want to control the world too, but want to do it over spaghetti marinara and a loose cooperation. SDI wants to get in on the fun. They're like "new money" and they joined our exclusive club. The Universal Referral Program agencies are aligned against PADI more so than each other. They try to tread lightly when stepping on each other's toes, but when encountering PADI they take great joy in "sticking it to the man".

Agencies like NSS-CDS, NACD, IANTD, TDI and GUE are fighting a different war. They'd be like the Middle East. The cave diving certs predated open water certs so it's like they've been around forever and just want to be the only ones left standing on their patch of land. GUE is like Israel. They believe they are God's chosen people and moved into this land late enough to really piss off certain factions who just want them killed.

Other agencies are like other crime familes and criminals. They're real, they're out there and they want a piece of the action.

Becoming an instructor trainer for me means that I can really fight back against PADI by pirating THE GOOD and EXPERIENCED instructors from them & turning them loose to wreak havoc and produce the best divers they can... now where did I put that Black Pearl?

C-cards are just supposed to say that someone has been trained at a certain level and asking to see a C-card protects you from gross negligence in not having checked to see if someone is certified for a level when filling tanks of oxygen, air or mixes for diving. If a guy showed me a Croatian Sub Sea Trimix Training card, I'd fill his tanks, but I'd do my best to verify the card was real & then just photo copy and file it if I suspected it wasn't a valid organization. Besides, the industry polices itself over all and in many countries one doesn't need to be certified to dive. I think the only people I've ever met who were concerned about what agency was on a card were PADI facilities in the past & recently never heard of any problems.

Centers are too poor to care.

~ Trace

[jextract]

I went to your website. So when will you have training programs in SoCal?