67 replies to this topic

[peterbj7]

Very informative post, Trace, and it does change my position as I hadn't realised that PDIC was a member of Universal Referral. Please PM or email me on what would be involved in my crossing over to PDIC. I'm thinking total time, any necessary travel outside Belize, and cost.

I've heard a rumour from a couple of places that SDI is no more. I find that hard to believe, but given that it was just a "me too" agency trying to take some of the pickings for itself I could believe it. What's the true situation?

One other thing - I don't see any PDIC representation in Britain. How come?

Edited by peterbj7, 01 August 2006 - 07:07 PM.

[TraceMalin]

Very informative post, Trace, and it does change my position as I hadn't realised that PDIC was a member of Universal Referral. Please PM or email me on what would be involved in my crossing over to PDIC. I'm thinking total time, any necessary travel outside Belize, and cost.

I've heard a rumour from a couple of places that SDI is no more. I find that hard to believe, but given that it was just a "me too" agency trying to take some of the pickings for itself I could believe it. What's the true situation?

One other thing - I don't see any PDIC representation in Britain. How come?

I think that's probably because there isn't an instructor trainer there. I went to Cornwall in 1997 with the intent of moving there and starting a dive business with a friend from Surrey. I was amazed that everything was "tech" in the UK. You could certainly find yourself in the position to be the PDIC representative for Britain. I love the United Kingdom so I'm hoping with my new IT status I can create more instructors there. By the way, I had absolutely no problem renting tanks and going with dive operators with my PDIC card. It wasn't even questioned.

I emailed you about the time and cost, but I should add that as experienced divers PDIC doesn't tell us how to teach our advanced and specialty courses. We know what we have to cover and we do so in a way that makes sense to real diving & not the way someone thought was correct. Every place has regional variations and as long as the diving skills are safe and sound I'd accept how you prefer to teach. I'll show you my tricks & you can show me yours and we'll both be better instructors for it. PDIC doesn't just believe there is one right way.

I'm pretty sure SDI is alive (for now).

~ Trace

[6Gill]

As far as certification card recognition goes, I think that those days are way behind us. Thanks to blackberries, cell phone internet access, laptops and the rest, there is likely to be no problem whatsoever with certification cards especially among the RSTC, WRSTC and Universal Referral Program members. Certification cards have been inappropriately used as weapons in the past by dive center staff and owners to strong arm taking training at their facilities. PADI's only real hold on the diving market is that theirs is the world's most "recognized" card. They like to make people think that "recognized" is the same thing as "accepted" but that isn't true. If a PADI facility refused to accept a PDIC certification, the PDIC diver merely needs to call or email PDIC and that diver will be speaking directly to one of the presidents and not just an office employee. In no time, PDIC HQ would contact PADI HQ and heads would roll.

If one equates dive training agencies to organized crime, ACUC, BSAC, CMAS, IDEA, NAUI, SDI, SSI, PADI, PDIC and YMCA are all crime families. PADI's tactics in the past by creating fear in the resort and dive travel industries caused IDEA, NASDS, NAUI, PDIC, SSI and YMCA to cooperate by forming the Universal Referral Program. SSI took over NASDS so now the major crime families out of North America are ACUC, IDEA, NAUI, SSI, PADI, PDIC, YMCA along with SDI. PADI doesn't like to play well with others and wants to dominate the world, much like the US government, and like the government hides behind a great propoganda campaign. NAUI, PDIC, SSI, IDEA and the YMCA are like the Italian mafia - a few families trying to make money the old-fashioned way (teaching quality diving). They pretty much want to control the world too, but want to do it over spaghetti marinara and a loose cooperation. SDI wants to get in on the fun. They're like "new money" and they joined our exclusive club. The Universal Referral Program agencies are aligned against PADI more so than each other. They try to tread lightly when stepping on each other's toes, but when encountering PADI they take great joy in "sticking it to the man".

Agencies like NSS-CDS, NACD, IANTD, TDI and GUE are fighting a different war. They'd be like the Middle East. The cave diving certs predated open water certs so it's like they've been around forever and just want to be the only ones left standing on their patch of land. GUE is like Israel. They believe they are God's chosen people and moved into this land late enough to really piss off certain factions who just want them killed.

Other agencies are like other crime familes and criminals. They're real, they're out there and they want a piece of the action.

Becoming an instructor trainer for me means that I can really fight back against PADI by pirating THE GOOD and EXPERIENCED instructors from them & turning them loose to wreak havoc and produce the best divers they can... now where did I put that Black Pearl?

C-cards are just supposed to say that someone has been trained at a certain level and asking to see a C-card protects you from gross negligence in not having checked to see if someone is certified for a level when filling tanks of oxygen, air or mixes for diving. If a guy showed me a Croatian Sub Sea Trimix Training card, I'd fill his tanks, but I'd do my best to verify the card was real & then just photo copy and file it if I suspected it wasn't a valid organization. Besides, the industry polices itself over all and in many countries one doesn't need to be certified to dive. I think the only people I've ever met who were concerned about what agency was on a card were PADI facilities in the past & recently never heard of any problems.

Centers are too poor to care.

~ Trace

I laughed I cried then laughed some more...then replaced my keyboard.

Peter,
From what I've seen as long as the operator(charter,dive center ect) sees a card they'll take your money.To the best of my knowlage there is no law that requires someone to have a cert card to dive,buy or rent gear.
They want the card to fill out the paper work to keep their insurance provider happy.

[TraceMalin]

I went to your website. So when will you have training programs in SoCal?

Jamie,

I can do a program anytime. Getting students from the SD board without SD getting some form of compensation is really treading on thin ice, I'm guessing. So, why don't we do a course in conjunction with a tech clinic/tek prep course in Southern California? No one has said anything yet to me about "business" on the site, but by way of "tribute" I'd do a tech clinic. I could do a clinic for a group, but to do a tek prep course, I'd need properly equipped divers with AOW cards or higher. The PDIC Instructor Course is 7 days and costs $1,500.00. All PDIC instructor trainers have been asked to teach at this rate. $500.00 goes to PDIC and includes all your books and kits. You'll emerge as a PDIC Instructor and PDIC Nitrox Instructor. You'll be taught how to teach the PDIC Open Water, Advanced Open Water, Rescue, Dive Supervisor, Assistant Instructor, Nitrox and Nitrox Dive Supervisor Programs. If you wish to teach specialty courses, I'll evaluate your expertise at each activity and teach you how to teach those courses. PDIC charges $35.00 per specialty (a one time fee). As a PDIC instructor, you can enter the Universal Referral Program and complete Open Water training for students who have had class and pool training through IDEA, NAUI, SSI, PDIC and YMCA.

~ Trace

[bluedolphin]

Peter,
From what I've seen as long as the operator(charter,dive center ect) sees a card they'll take your money.To the best of my knowlage there is no law that requires someone to have a cert card to dive,buy or rent gear.
They want the card to fill out the paper work to keep their insurance provider happy.

I actually think many dive shops require a card to rent gear if they don't know you.

With that said I did 10 dives in Florida recently with 3 differernt operators and not one ever asked to see my "C" card

Conversley last year when I was on a live aboard in Hawii, they would not accept my LA County Advanced card I had to show them something else.

Go figure.

[Diverbrian]

Peter,
From what I've seen as long as the operator(charter,dive center ect) sees a card they'll take your money.To the best of my knowlage there is no law that requires someone to have a cert card to dive,buy or rent gear.
They want the card to fill out the paper work to keep their insurance provider happy.

I actually think many dive shops require a card to rent gear if they don't know you.

With that said I did 10 dives in Florida recently with 3 differernt operators and not one ever asked to see my "C" card

Conversley last year when I was on a live aboard in Hawii, they would not accept my LA County Advanced card I had to show them something else.

Go figure.

Normally, I don't comment on these things, but what was this operator thinking in not accepting an LA county card?

[TraceMalin]

Peter,
From what I've seen as long as the operator(charter,dive center ect) sees a card they'll take your money.To the best of my knowlage there is no law that requires someone to have a cert card to dive,buy or rent gear.
They want the card to fill out the paper work to keep their insurance provider happy.

I actually think many dive shops require a card to rent gear if they don't know you.

With that said I did 10 dives in Florida recently with 3 differernt operators and not one ever asked to see my "C" card

Conversley last year when I was on a live aboard in Hawii, they would not accept my LA County Advanced card I had to show them something else.

Go figure.

Normally, I don't comment on these things, but what was this operator thinking in not accepting an LA county card?

Well, there was a story some years back that a PADI shop wouldn't rent the actual Jacques Cousteau equipment because he didn't have a certification card. The funny part is that at the time the corporate trail found PADI being owned by the company owned by the company that was owned by Cousteau or something like that. But, at any rate, the man who invented the Aqua-lung wasn't allowed to rent one without proper training. On the their website board, anyone who isn't PADI certified is considered a "non-diver" even Cousteau! So, if you've ever been refused a fill or rental at a PADI store you're in great company. And, yes, they knew it was Jaques-Yves Cousteau because he had ID. Supposedly it is in an old diving periodical. If someone is bored he/she could try to find that story.

Trace

Edited by TraceMalin, 02 August 2006 - 09:30 AM.

[Walter]

Trace, that sounds like an urban legend to me.

As for the statement, "On the their website board, anyone who isn't PADI certified is considered a "non-diver" even Cousteau!" I don't buy it, I've never had a PADI shop refuse to recognize my non-PADI card.

[TraceMalin]

Trace, that sounds like an urban legend to me.

As for the statement, "On the their website board, anyone who isn't PADI certified is considered a "non-diver" even Cousteau!" I don't buy it, I've never had a PADI shop refuse to recognize my non-PADI card.

I agree. It's probably an urban legend, but if someone wants to research it they can.

However, if you try to join the PADI forum like you joined SD and filled in the boxes as to your dive level. PADI doesn't recognize other agencies. Everything was PADI this, PADI that & "Non Diver."

I didn't mean to say that PADI's official stance is that other agencies don't exist & they won't accept c-cards from other agencies. I guess I was unclear in my posting? I was trying to point out the PADI site board/forum when I tried to register. Perhaps they updated it and have "equivalents" rather than "non-divers"?

Trace

Edited by TraceMalin, 02 August 2006 - 09:59 AM.

[Walter]

Yeah, I guess I did misunderstand your post. I wasn't aware PADI had such a forum and I can't imagine why you'd want to be a part of it if you weren't "gung ho" PADI.

[Dive_Girl]

I didn't mean to say that PADI's official stance is that other agencies don't exist & they won't accept c-cards from other agencies. I guess I was unclear in my posting? I was trying to point out the PADI site board/forum when I tried to register. Perhaps they updated it and have "equivalents" rather than "non-divers"?

"PADI" is a dive training agency. How dive shop employees who teach PADI courses conduct themselves when not teaching PADI courses, such as when looking at non-PADI certification cards to fill an air tank, should not be representative of PADI.

At some point people, you have to quit attributing PADI for the deficiencies of general employee conduct or knowledge.

I had a customer come in once with a CMAS certificate. At the time I was unfamiliar with CMAS. I simply got on the Internet and conduct a quick search to verify it was a recognized agency. Someone else may have turned the customer away – that is simply a customer service issue.

Yeah, I guess I did misunderstand your post. I wasn't aware PADI had such a forum and I can't imagine why you'd want to be a part of it if you weren't "gung ho" PADI.

PADI has a forum for dive professionals or divers to find shops, dive buddies, job opportunities...etc. It's maintained on their site as a membership service to their divers. So that's a bad thing?

[Dennis]

Trace,

Your comparison of PADI to McDonald's was just too good. I don't eat at McDonald's except for a Sausage, Egg, and Cheese biscuit once in a while. I get my tanks filled at a PADI facility, but I would never get a certification from them. McDonald's is a great marketing company, their food is mediocre. PADI is a great marketing company....

[Dive_Girl]

Trace,

Your comparison of PADI to McDonald's was just too good. I don't eat at McDonald's except for a Sausage, Egg, and Cheese biscuit once in a while. I get my tanks filled at a PADI facility, but I would never get a certification from them. McDonald's is a great marketing company, their food is mediocre. PADI is a great marketing company....

I personally find it an offensive comparison. I am one of those PADI instructors you are all talking about and none of you know me nor have taken any class from me. If you are going to label and generalize - why not just pause for just one moment and think about WHO you are talking about. We are people too. I take teaching very seriously. Teaching isn't my full time job. It is my passion to help people discover scuba diving. I put everything I have of myself into a class. Too much at times.

So why keep it up if at every turn I am just going to be labeled as a side show joke happy meal? Thank you gentlemen.

[Terri]

I too find it quite offensive, Nicolle! I'm a PADI OW, AOW trained diver...so apparently I'm considered to be a mediocre diver...thanks for that!

If that's the attitude of instructors from other agencies, I'd personally prefer to never be associated with those agencies.

[annasea]

Trace,

Your comparison of PADI to McDonald's was just too good. I don't eat at McDonald's except for a Sausage, Egg, and Cheese biscuit once in a while. I get my tanks filled at a PADI facility, but I would never get a certification from them. McDonald's is a great marketing company, their food is mediocre. PADI is a great marketing company....

I personally find it an offensive comparison. I am one of those PADI instructors you are all talking about and none of you know me nor have taken any class from me. If you are going to label and generalize - why not just pause for just one moment and think about WHO you are talking about. We are people too. I take teaching very seriously. Teaching isn't my full time job. It is my passion to help people discover scuba diving. I put everything I have of myself into a class. Too much at times.

So why keep it up if at every turn I am just going to be labeled as a side show joke happy meal? Thank you gentlemen.

I'd like to chime in here briefly if I may...

Based on my personal experience with PADI, I'm not their biggest supporter, but I have no doubt from reading Nicolle's posts that she is a very fine instructor -- by any agency's standards.

As I mentioned previously in another thread, my hair stylist was recently certified in Thailand. Although her course was only 5 days, she covered skin diving skills as well as buddy breathing. As well, the impression I got from speaking with her about her course was that ALL skills learned in the pool were tested in open water. During my check-out dives, very few skills were actually tested. Frankly, I was surprised how easy it was.

My stylist's certifying agency? PADI. My certifying agency? NAUI. No disrespect intended toward NAUI or my instructor, but I have no doubt that in this instance, PADI's course was by far superior to NAUI's.