126 replies to this topic

[annasea]

Well, thanks for asking, my dear Perrone!

Sadly, not good. Here's the long(ish) story...

My instructor for the day and I arrived at Porteau Cove, my requested dive site. (Why did I specify it? Because I was told the walk was easier to the car than Whytecliff.) We head down toward the shore where my instructor shows me a map of the various dive sites in the immediate vacinity. 'Sounds great!', I thought. I was a bit antsy once I saw the flight of stairs I needed to climb to get back to the car but other than that, things seemed fine. Hell, even the swim out to the buoys didn't seem so bad.

We go back to the car to gear up. It's decided I need 30# of lead. Well, whatever, I'll deal with it. While still at the shop, I requested the medium suit with new seals that the manager told me about after I explained about Lynne's issue with seals down in Seattle. The drysuit was available but frankly, I didn't notice the seals to be any snugger. Well, whatever, I'll deal with it. I asked about the dog collar and got that, too.

So now we're geared up and ready to go! I've got 30# of weight, borrowed fins, 5mm gloves, a borrowed hood that apparently fits, merino wool undies, my mask, and Pinnacle undergarments and drysuit that are so big I can't even thread my crotch strap onto my waist strap. Well, whatever, I'll deal with it.

We hit the water and begin our swim out to the buoy. My god, it felt like forever! By the time I reached that buoy, I felt as if I'd run a marathon. I asked if we could pause for a couple of minutes so I could catch my breath.

So down we go. Things were OK at first, but I didn't like the sensation of the suit *sticking* to me. So I added some air. And then a bit more air. And then just a tiny bit more. Well, next thing I knew, my left fin had come off, my ankle weight was almost around my heel, my foot was out of the boot, I couldn't find the pulley to let the air out of my wing with gloves on, I was ascending, and I was inhaling more water than air with each breath I tried to take. Well, guess what... I can't deal with it. GAME OVER!!!

Listen, I can and have put up with all kinds of **** in my initial quest to get certified, but the minute breathing becomes an issue and I start to panic... I thumbed the dive so my instructor started trying to help but neither of us were able to accomplish much at this point. Frankly, I just wanted to get the hell out of there. I surfaced with no fin and my foot still out of the boot. She wound up towing me into shore.

BUT...

at least I didn't cry.

What's most disappointing about this whole experience is the only reason I decided to learn to dive dry in the first place was because I really want(ed) to take NWGratefulDiver's AOW course in Seattle in September. My instructor said I could try again if I wanted to, but that surface swim damn near killed me. And to think I'd have to do 6 more of those with Bob in September...

I don't know...

BTW, I was soaked. Wick shmick... wet is wet.

[ScubaDadMiami]

This is what will happen with equipment that does not fit properly. So, I was not surprised in the outcome.

The more thick underwear you put on, the more weight you will need. Those people in the camping store may have been trying to give you good advice about the wool. However, wearing it likely means (I guess, I don't know since I have never used it) that you will need more weight. Should have just gone with the long underwear.

When you went down to check out the area, that is when you carry down the weight so that you are not fatigued by your climb down to the water. You leave it there, and then you put it on after descending with your gear on.

You have to get used to the feeling of the suit and thermals. You do not want to be pumping gas into your suit beyond the bare minimum. (After my 3:10 dive, it took a few hours for the skin indentations from my thermals to go away. That means I did it just about right! ) As you quickly found out, adding this gas will cause problems.

Rented equipment, unfamiliar equipment, equipment that does not fit properly all add up to what happened. Don't worry, after the first hundred dives or so, it does get better.

[annasea]

This is what will happen with equipment that does not fit properly. So, I was not surprised in the outcome.

The more thick underwear you put on, the more weight you will need. Those people in the camping store may have been trying to give you good advice about the wool. However, wearing it likely means (I guess, I don't know since I have never used it) that you will need more weight. Should have just gone with the long underwear.

When you went down to check out the area, that is when you carry down the weight so that you are not fatigued by your climb down to the water. You leave it there, and then you put it on after descending with your gear on.

You have to get used to the feeling of the suit and thermals. You do not want to be pumping gas into your suit beyond the bare minimum. (After my 3:10 dive, it took a few hours for the skin indentations from my thermals to go away. That means I did it just about right! ) As you quickly found out, adding this gas will cause problems.

Rented equipment, unfamiliar equipment, equipment that does not fit properly all add up to what happened. Don't worry, after the first hundred dives or so, it does get better.

LOL! Aw, Howard... And thanks for the advice and insight!

A few more thoughts...

I don't think my wool undies were a factor. I was surprised when I first saw them -- they're paper thin. But the merino wool socks are a whole other story.

I should have listened to Lynne from SB re: fin keepers. Had my boots collapsed around my foot, I doubt I would have lost my fin or my boot for that matter.

I think everything would have been OK had it not been for the breathing. I know my reg was not at fault; I'm guessing it was how I had the hood positioned. Or maybe it was the wrong size... I don't know.

I'll think on it for a bit, but I'll probably try one more time with this LDS. (Might as well, I can't get a refund.) I'll pick up a pair of fin keepers and hope for the best.

[PerroneFord]

So lets see...

You got a suit that was too big, you didn't adjust your BP/W to accomidate, you likely had too much weight, the seals were too large thus allowing you to get soaked (you didn't mention you got cold so I assume the undies kept you warm at least), you found your fitness limit on the swim, you paniced, and you had a set of regs that breathed wet. You didn't like the "squeeze" (the suit is not sticking to you) and yes it is somewhat uncomfortable at first.

Sounds like a typical intro to drysuit diving to me! Also sounds a lot like our dive together.

So, it appears you need to do a few things if you want to take the class with Bob.

1. Find a suit that FITS you and you can rent. You live in Vancouver. I can't think of many better places to find a drysuit rental place.

2. Adjust your BP to fit with the drysuit and undergarments. Loosen up everything a couple inches. It'll make things easier.

3. What happened to your fin? And did you get the spring straps on them that we encouraged? If not, I can take a good guess at what happened to it.

4. Sounds like you need to spend some time tooling around in 10-20ft of water working on your buoyancy and finding out how much weight you REALLY need. I am guessing you don't need anywhere near 30 pounds with that undergarment. I have the same one.


So let me offer some consolation. I did my first drysuit dives in many months this past weekend. I spent 2 dives looking like a lawn dart. My twin 108s and the SS backplate put me on my face. I ended up with cramps in both legs trying to fin hard enough to keep myself from hitting my face in the silt. It was 95F degrees, and I had on enough undergarments to keep me warm in the water for 5 hours. I sweated out all the hydration I worked so hard to put in.

On day 2, I changed to a different set of tanks, and was finally able to complete a dive. So I did another right away for good measure. Part of my right foot is numb from the squeeze I put on myself going to 12ft with my dive buddy as she dove my doubles and I had no way to inflate my suit. I have a bruise on my sternum from the inflation valve pressing there on the same dive.

Learning to dive dry is not easy. It requires practice, and diligence to do well. The reward is being able to dive in relative comfort anywhere, any time. The drawback is that it's not as easy to do as falling off a banana boat in the Caymans and swimming on a reef at 20ft while you're in a swimsuit.

Your signature says the following:

"grow a backbone where your wishbone used to be ..."

What do you think?

[annasea]

<snip>

1. Find a suit that FITS you and you can rent. You live in Vancouver. I can't think of many better places to find a drysuit rental place.

2. Adjust your BP to fit with the drysuit and undergarments. Loosen up everything a couple inches. It'll make things easier.

3. What happened to your fin? And did you get the spring straps on them that we encouraged? If not, I can take a good guess at what happened to it.

4. Sounds like you need to spend some time tooling around in 10-20ft of water working on your buoyancy and finding out how much weight you REALLY need. I am guessing you don't need anywhere near 30 pounds with that undergarment. I have the same one.

1. Chances that I'll find a drysuit to rent that FITS, even in Vancouver, are pretty much nil. I couldn't even find a wetsuit that fit. Not even close! I'll have to make do on this one. I see Apollo seals in my future.

2. I can loosen up my harness somewhat, but were it loose enough to fit *properly* on the suit, I reckon it'd be sliding off my shoulders in no time.

3. I can't use my own fins. Yes, they're Jets and yes, they have spring straps. The boot on the drysuit is way too big for my fins, therefore I'm using the LDS's fins and they don't come with spring straps.

4. This is a good idea, but as long as I continue to work with a shop, it's probably highly unlikely. Even if I'm the only student, there just isn't time for this. Today, for example, we were barely in the water at depth and yet it took over 4 hours from the time we left the shop to the time we arrived back.

So let me offer some consolation. I did my first drysuit dives in many months this past weekend. I spent 2 dives looking like a lawn dart. My twin 108s and the SS backplate put me on my face. I ended up with cramps in both legs trying to fin hard enough to keep myself from hitting my face in the silt. It was 95F degrees, and I had on enough undergarments to keep me warm in the water for 5 hours. I sweated out all the hydration I worked so hard to put in.

On day 2, I changed to a different set of tanks, and was finally able to complete a dive. So I did another right away for good measure. Part of my right foot is numb from the squeeze I put on myself going to 12ft with my dive buddy as she dove my doubles and I had no way to inflate my suit. I have a bruise on my sternum from the inflation valve pressing there on the same dive.

Now this I like to hear!

Your signature says the following:

"grow a backbone where your wishbone used to be ..."

What do you think?

Hey! Let my sig line be -- it ain't about diving...

[gcbryan]

Caetllonn, it will be better on your next dive

I've been to Porteau Cove and it is much easier to get from the parking lot to the water than Whytecliffe Park, much easier!

Porteau Cove does involve some swimming, too much for what you need to accomplish at this point. You don't need to see the sunken boats, ship, etc.

Next time drop down soon after you get into the water. Who cares if there is nothing to see. As Perrone said, adjust your BC/W to fit what you are wearing. Since the boots are attached on your suit definitely use fin keepers.

Put very little air into your suit. You don't need it. You have to get used to a slight squeeze. It won't hurt you so it's just something to get used to.

When you are stressed out, with much equipment that is not yours, it will be much more comfortable the faster you get underwater.

You just need to get comfortable enough to be able to swim around underwater and enjoy being underwater without having to think so much about the equipment. It's not like the tropics so don't compare it to that. It's different.

Once you get stressed out as you did it's good to call the dive as you did. Just go back and try again with the added experience that you gained today.

For what it's worth, getting into the water is easier yet at Cove 2 in Seattle where Bob will be taking you. There will be much more to see than at Porteau Cove (in my opinion).

As long as you are warm during the dive don't worry too much if you are somewhat wet after the dive. When you get a suit that fits that won't happen but in the meantime you'll still be warm.

You may or may not have been overweighted. It takes a lot of weight to dive up here. Were you using an aluminum tank?

Your experience wasn't all that uncommon. Your second dive will be much better.

I just saw your post above...you can loosen up your harness if you need to. Remember the crotch strap will take up that slack when you put that on.

Regarding trouble breathing it was probably just the stress of everything else that was going on. You just need to spend some time in the water shallow. Find Eric to go on a dive with you or come down here and I'll do it.

Edited by gcbryan, 30 July 2007 - 10:03 PM.

[annasea]

Thanks so much for all the advice, Gray! I've emailed Bob as well to see what he has to say, but I'm pretty certain I'll try again in 2 wks on my next day off.

Yes, I was diving an AL80. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if I was overweighted.

As for the *Canadian* 6Gill... he seems to be more elusive than yours down there. I'll break out the phone # and see what I can unearth. In the meantime, I just may take you up on your offer. And/or anyone else who's willing!

[PerroneFord]

You may or may not have been overweighted. It takes a lot of weight to dive up here.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. This singular statement confuses me somewhat. Is there something particular about the water near you that is different from other places?

As mentioned, I have been wearing the exact same undergarment she rented. Typically, my setup is a wicking layer, then polarmax top and bottom, then either my new polarfleece or the Pinnacle Evolution. Probably quite similar to what she dove today. With twin AL80s at 1000psi (in other words they were positive), and wearing 15 pounds, I was able to hold stops at 5ft with the squeeze off me.

Thirty pounds is a LOT of weight for someone her size.

[gcbryan]

Thanks so much for all the advice, Gray! I've emailed Bob as well to see what he has to say, but I'm pretty certain I'll try again in 2 wks on my next day off.

Yes, I was diving an AL80. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if I was overweighted.

As for the *Canadian* 6Gill... he seems to be more elusive than yours down there. I'll break out the phone # and see what I can unearth. In the meantime, I just may take you up on your offer. And/or anyone else who's willing!

Anytime regarding the offer.

One advantage of Cove 2 is that you just walk off the beach until the water is high enough to take the weight off you. Then you can adjust yourself and fix whatever problem you are having while still standing up.

For sure you need to have many of these issues corrected before taking Bob's AOW as his class is not simply a series of follow me dives. The navigation portion takes place mid-water where you can't see the surface or the bottom. I'm sure if you spend more time in the water all of your issues will be overcome.

[gcbryan]

You may or may not have been overweighted. It takes a lot of weight to dive up here.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. This singular statement confuses me somewhat. Is there something particular about the water near you that is different from other places?

As mentioned, I have been wearing the exact same undergarment she rented. Typically, my setup is a wicking layer, then polarmax top and bottom, then either my new polarfleece or the Pinnacle Evolution. Probably quite similar to what she dove today. With twin AL80s at 1000psi (in other words they were positive), and wearing 15 pounds, I was able to hold stops at 5ft with the squeeze off me.

Thirty pounds is a LOT of weight for someone her size.

I think Lynne (the person she is referring to from Scubaboard (TSandM) used a similar amount of weight when she was geared similarly to Caetllonn. I haven't seen Caetllonn but I can guarantee that Lynne is smaller.

Are you sure that she is wearing exactly what you are wearing and no more? It doesn't take much to trap more air. When I was using a jacket BC, aluminum tank, I was using around 38lbs and more with certain undergarment changes. I now use 22lbs on a weight belt, steel 119, 5lb BP. I have only 2lbs more than necessary if I drained my tank, purged my suit and wing completely to be able to hold a 10 fsw stop. I have the extra 2 lbs just so I don't freeze to death so I can loft my undergarments. One factor to remember is that we are in salt water. By the way, she may be overweighted but I doubt it is by as much as you might think Actually, I don't even know what the weight is that we are comparing. Is that 30 lbs on a waist belt and is she using her DSS BP with the additional 8lb bolt on plate? What kind of plate are you using etc.

Edited by gcbryan, 30 July 2007 - 10:50 PM.

[PerroneFord]

I think Lynne (the person she is referring to from Scubaboard (TSandM) used a similar amount of weight when she was geared similarly to Caetllonn. I haven't seen Caetllonn but I can guarantee that Lynne is smaller.

Are you sure that she is wearing exactly what you are wearing and no more? It doesn't take much to trap more air. When I was using a jacket BC, aluminum tank, I was using around 38lbs and more with certain undergarment changes. I now use 22lbs on a weight belt, steel 119, 5lb BP. I have only 2lbs more than necessary if I drained my tank, purged my suit and wing completely to be able to hold a 10 fsw stop. I have the extra 2 lbs just so I don't freeze to death so I can loft my undergarments. One factor to remember is that we are in salt water. By the way, she may be overweighted but I doubt it is by as much as you might think

Lynne is smaller no doubt, but I think her bones are hollow! I've never seen such a small woman who needed so much weight. I had Caetlonn verify the undergarment they are renting her, and it's the same as mine. Unless her thin Merino long johns are sevearl pounds more buoyant than my expedition weight Polarmax, I think we are dressed very similarly.

As you mentioned I am not in salt water though, but that should only add a few pounds. It's 4% more right? At one point Saturday, I dove an AL80 to 400psi while wearing a 200g polarfleece, expedition weight long johns, Underarmour coldgear top, and thick Wigwam wool socks. I wore no weightbelt. We did the entire dive next to the platform in Morrison, so it was about 12ft deep. I was a bit light, but managed to swim to the shallows at 4ft without hitting the top.

Maybe I'm wrong and she's not way overweighted. I don't know. I've never been diving up there in the cold. I just seems so strange to me to see all the weight you guys wear.

[annasea]

I was wearing my DSS BP (~5#), 17# in my ditchable weight pockets, and then an additional 9# or so in a weight belt.

Isn't lead needed determined by more than just weight (and height)? Perrone, regardless of how much I weigh, I'd still need more weight than you, I reckon. Your muscle to fat ratio is way higher than mine. Muscle weighs more than fat, yes? And is much more dense and therefore requires less lead to sink?

[gcbryan]

I think Lynne (the person she is referring to from Scubaboard (TSandM) used a similar amount of weight when she was geared similarly to Caetllonn. I haven't seen Caetllonn but I can guarantee that Lynne is smaller.

Are you sure that she is wearing exactly what you are wearing and no more? It doesn't take much to trap more air. When I was using a jacket BC, aluminum tank, I was using around 38lbs and more with certain undergarment changes. I now use 22lbs on a weight belt, steel 119, 5lb BP. I have only 2lbs more than necessary if I drained my tank, purged my suit and wing completely to be able to hold a 10 fsw stop. I have the extra 2 lbs just so I don't freeze to death so I can loft my undergarments. One factor to remember is that we are in salt water. By the way, she may be overweighted but I doubt it is by as much as you might think

Lynne is smaller no doubt, but I think her bones are hollow! I've never seen such a small woman who needed so much weight. I had Caetlonn verify the undergarment they are renting her, and it's the same as mine. Unless her thin Merino long johns are sevearl pounds more buoyant than my expedition weight Polarmax, I think we are dressed very similarly.

As you mentioned I am not in salt water though, but that should only add a few pounds. It's 4% more right? At one point Saturday, I dove an AL80 to 400psi while wearing a 200g polarfleece, expedition weight long johns, Underarmour coldgear top, and thick Wigwam wool socks. I wore no weightbelt. We did the entire dive next to the platform in Morrison, so it was about 12ft deep. I was a bit light, but managed to swim to the shallows at 4ft without hitting the top.

Maybe I'm wrong and she's not way overweighted. I don't know. I've never been diving up there in the cold. I just seems so strange to me to see all the weight you guys wear.

She probably is overweight somewhat. Most people just learning to use a drysuit are rightly slighly overweighted while they are learning so they aren't constantly bouncing to the surface. What water temps are you diving in? Also, body types do vary quite a bit. I know that Bob (GratefulDiver) dives in undergarments that I use as undergarments under my jumpsuit. The difference is he is carrying at least 50 extra pounds of fat. That's an insulation issue but different body types also require more to get them down.

I would be cold if all I had on was what you've described above. I'm guessing that Caetllonn would need much more than that. Who knows. I'm sure we both agree on the solution... a proper weight check with the actual gear being used and weight is what it is.

Salt water does require an extra 4% but that's 4% of total weight which can add up. My tank is 48lbs full, 22 lb weight belt, I weigh about 180lb, 5 lb BP, etc. So 4% is more than a few lbs.

Edited by gcbryan, 30 July 2007 - 11:29 PM.

[Cold_H2O]

Caetlonn ~ this all takes practice and lots of effort.
When I dive my drysuit I use 26 pounds of weight and dive a HP80.

It is tougher when you dive a suit that is too big.
I recently bought a new drysuit and it is HUGE on me.
Even with all my years of drysuit diving I have issues diving the suit.
(Yes the mfg is making me a new one and promising it will fit )

Getting gear that fits is very important ~ more important (I think) when diving the cold PNW waters.

Remember this is not warm water diving and you can't compair the two.
It hard to find things when you are wearing 5mm gloves.
Hard to move when you are wearing a drysuit.
It takes time to get use to the extra gear.
(I still hate wearing my hood and will usually pull it off as soon as I surface)

If you come down I will dive with you ~ nothing wrong with taking your time and playing in the shallows for as long as it takes.

Edited by gis_gal, 30 July 2007 - 11:34 PM.

[annasea]

Thx for the insight, Colleen!

I've now got 3 offers of dive buddies in WA... I'll contact the LDS tomorrow to make arrangements to finish up my 2 dives in 2 wks time (I hope), and will take it from there. C and G, I'll contact you at the appropriate places to discuss the details.