41 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

Can't believe I am about to say this on a public forum but it's true...

This reminds me a lot of what George Irvine used to talk about. People designing things and coming up with all kinds of things using "surface logic". But not really putting things in the water to test them there.

A fundamental dive test with a target market (cavers, wreck divers, etc.) would have shown this thing to be an utter nightmare. Reports on the suit from DEMA were saying how the outer material was already beginning to fray from "people trying it on all weekend". How in the HECK is a caver or a Wreck diver going to dive that in their environment. ESPECIALLY with no pockets. When I mentioned the no pockets thing on SB, someone actually said "X-Shorts". As if I want to pay nearly $2000 for a drysuit, and then put an $50 solution over the top of them so I can have some pockets.

Surface logic...

[annasea]

<snip> When I mentioned the no pockets thing on SB, someone actually said "X-Shorts". As if I want to pay nearly $2000 for a drysuit, and then put an $50 solution over the top of them so I can have some pockets.

<snip>

Actually, the suit retails for just under $1400.

[PerroneFord]

Actually, the suit retails for just under $1400.

I don't care if it's $100. I'm not spending $50 on a pair or shorts to put over my streamlined drysuit just so I can have some pockets.

And if people get a decent cut drysuit, it's NOT necessary to streamline it.

[annasea]

Actually, the suit retails for just under $1400.

I don't care if it's $100. I'm not spending $50 on a pair or shorts to put over my streamlined drysuit just so I can have some pockets.

And if people get a decent cut drysuit, it's NOT necessary to streamline it.

::sigh:: Oh, Perrone...

[gcbryan]

Actually, the suit retails for just under $1400.

I don't care if it's $100. I'm not spending $50 on a pair or shorts to put over my streamlined drysuit just so I can have some pockets.

And if people get a decent cut drysuit, it's NOT necessary to streamline it.

Maybe you're not their target market. There is a market for drysuit divers who don't go into caves or wrecks.

(Just busting your chops a bit. I actually don't know anything about this suit or have a need for it. I don't personally have a problem with existing drysuits).

[PerroneFord]

No you're right. There most certainly is a market out there for drysuits outside of caving and wreck diving. I suppose that would be quarry divers. Because I think very few of the cold water divers I've ever met are diving in cold water to dive walls or see cold water mammals.

That said, I also think the market for drysuits without a single pocket is pretty small too.

[PerroneFord]

I don't care if it's $100. I'm not spending $50 on a pair or shorts to put over my streamlined drysuit just so I can have some pockets.


::sigh:: Oh, Perrone...

Oh, Perrone what?

Edited by PerroneFord, 06 November 2007 - 07:54 AM.

[Latitude Adjustment]

No you're right. There most certainly is a market out there for drysuits outside of caving and wreck diving. I suppose that would be quarry divers. Because I think very few of the cold water divers I've ever met are diving in cold water to dive walls or see cold water mammals.

That said, I also think the market for drysuits without a single pocket is pretty small too.

Being a WWW I try to avoid any situation that requires a dry suit! However California diving is beautiful but cold, I've done a few trips to the channel islands and toughed it out in a wetsuit. The Great White trip was an eye opener, I could only take the cold about ninty minutes and the drysuited were only coming up to eat so I do see a drysuit in my future.
I would have gone to the DUI Dog day at Lake Rawlings Va. but I had a head cold working on me.

[pir8]

No you're right. There most certainly is a market out there for drysuits outside of caving and wreck diving. I suppose that would be quarry divers. Because I think very few of the cold water divers I've ever met are diving in cold water to dive walls or see cold water mammals.

That said, I also think the market for drysuits without a single pocket is pretty small too.

Being a WWW I try to avoid any situation that requires a dry suit! However California diving is beautiful but cold, I've done a few trips to the channel islands and toughed it out in a wetsuit. The Great White trip was an eye opener, I could only take the cold about ninty minutes and the drysuited were only coming up to eat so I do see a drysuit in my future.
I would have gone to the DUI Dog day at Lake Rawlings Va. but I had a head cold working on me.

Hey Ray, you do know several manufacturers have Dry Suit days at Dutch over the year so you wouldn't have to go all the way to Va.

[Latitude Adjustment]

No you're right. There most certainly is a market out there for drysuits outside of caving and wreck diving. I suppose that would be quarry divers. Because I think very few of the cold water divers I've ever met are diving in cold water to dive walls or see cold water mammals.

That said, I also think the market for drysuits without a single pocket is pretty small too.

Being a WWW I try to avoid any situation that requires a dry suit! However California diving is beautiful but cold, I've done a few trips to the channel islands and toughed it out in a wetsuit. The Great White trip was an eye opener, I could only take the cold about ninty minutes and the drysuited were only coming up to eat so I do see a drysuit in my future.
I would have gone to the DUI Dog day at Lake Rawlings Va. but I had a head cold working on me.

Hey Ray, you do know several manufacturers have Dry Suit days at Dutch over the year so you wouldn't have to go all the way to Va.

The lake Rawlings one was a week after the GW trip and the chill was still fresh on my mind plus I would get to see one of my favorite dive buddies

[gcbryan]

No you're right. There most certainly is a market out there for drysuits outside of caving and wreck diving. I suppose that would be quarry divers. Because I think very few of the cold water divers I've ever met are diving in cold water to dive walls or see cold water mammals.

That said, I also think the market for drysuits without a single pocket is pretty small too.

White's is located in British Columbia I believe where almost everyone is diving in cold water to dive walls.

[Walter]

A fundamental dive test with a target market (cavers, wreck divers, etc.) would have shown this thing to be an utter nightmare.

What makes you think that is their target market? They already have suits for that market. Their target for the Fusion is people who are afraid of learning new skills necessary for a dry suit as well as those who are not looking to spend $2000 for one. I saw the suits on the last day of DEMA, I didn't see any fraying on any of them.

I think very few of the cold water divers I've ever met are diving in cold water to dive walls or see cold water mammals.

Folks in the Pacific Northwest do exactly that quite often.

When I saw the suits, I never thought, "Perfect for Perrone," I thought, "Great idea for an inexperienced diver wanting to dive in cold water."

[PerroneFord]

A fundamental dive test with a target market (cavers, wreck divers, etc.) would have shown this thing to be an utter nightmare.

What makes you think that is their target market? They already have suits for that market. Their target for the Fusion is people who are afraid of learning new skills necessary for a dry suit as well as those who are not looking to spend $2000 for one. I saw the suits on the last day of DEMA, I didn't see any fraying on any of them.

I think very few of the cold water divers I've ever met are diving in cold water to dive walls or see cold water mammals.

Folks in the Pacific Northwest do exactly that quite often.

When I saw the suits, I never thought, "Perfect for Perrone," I thought, "Great idea for an inexperienced diver wanting to dive in cold water."

Fair enough. I have asked the representative on SB the same question. Who is the target for the suit. If it as you suggest, inexperienced drysuit divers in the PNW, then I will accept that. I've never been further north on the pacific coast than San Francisco, but isn't the coast up there rocky? Wouldn't that present something of a challenge to a lycra covering? And if someone were boat diving, wouldn't they want a place to store their SMB, whistle, light, signal mirror, or other emergency gear? Is the suit aimed at females only? I don't see any neat provision for a P-Valve without cutting the lycra cover.

I am more than willing to admit that I may be one of the few people who "don't get it" with the suit. Maybe I am just out in left field on this one. But it seems like a gear solution to a skill problem. Take the 2 weeks necessary to become skilled with a drysuit, and much of the appeal of this suit goes away. At least it would seem.

Honestly, if the suit had a pocket or two, and provision for a P-Valve, I could see it getting some real traction in cave country. The idea of having a shell suit, with neoprene drysuit streamlining, is appealing. But it doesn't appear that was the target.

[PerroneFord]

White's is located in British Columbia I believe where almost everyone is diving in cold water to dive walls.

I believe you are right. And in that context, it may make sense. But would you agree that the market (PNW wall divers) is pretty small? At least compared to the drysuit market overall? Perhaps similarly small to the cave market?

[Walter]

I've never been further north on the pacific coast than San Francisco, but isn't the coast up there rocky? Wouldn't that present something of a challenge to a lycra covering?

I don't know. I've never owned or used a lycra suit, but folks who tell me I should have one use the argument that lycra will protect my skin. If it will protect skin, wouldn't it protect the shell?

And if someone were boat diving, wouldn't they want a place to store their SMB, whistle, light, signal mirror, or other emergency gear?

I have places for those things. I don't have pockets in my wet suits and the pockets in my swim suits aren't big enough. I have pockets on my BC.

Is the suit aimed at females only? I don't see any neat provision for a P-Valve without cutting the lycra cover.

Excellent point. Mention it to the Whites Rep, he seems willing to address these issues, he's looking into pockets.

I am more than willing to admit that I may be one of the few people who "don't get it" with the suit. Maybe I am just out in left field on this one. But it seems like a gear solution to a skill problem.

Honestly, I agree. The first time I used a dry suit, I felt at home in it. I don't understand why folks have such problems.

Take the 2 weeks necessary to become skilled with a drysuit, and much of the appeal of this suit goes away. At least it would seem.

True.