40 replies to this topic

[WreckWench]

There is a new series on tv called What Would You Do? And the premise is what would you do if faced with a difficult problem NOT knowing that you were being filmed by a hidden camera. Would you try to help? Would you walk away? Would you ignore it for fear of retaliation?

So here is our first in a series called WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Diving Edition

Scene: You are diving on a boat and have only recently met your own buddy. You and your buddy notice another diver who is constantly up and down in the water column. You watch them put LOTS of air in their bc and then they rise to fast shooting to the surface. Then they dump too much and are plummeting to the bottom. This repeats itself a number of times. What do you do?

Options: Do you say something to the diver? If so what do you say and how do you do it? Do you initiate conversation about the situation with your dive buddy and if so what do you say since you barely know your buddy? Do you just ignore the diver hoping they will get it worked out by themselves or at least bend/kill themselves on another trip? Do you figure 'been there done that' and let the diver eventually work it out on their own? Or do you try to find 'someone else to assist' fearing you'll be considered intrusive and out of line for butting in?

How does it work:

There are no right and wrong answers. There are however MANY answers for many reasons. The point is to see what you would PERSONALLY do and why. And then hopefully to see how others would respond and perhaps collectively learn how to help our fellow divers be safer to themselves, and safer to our underwater world we so love and safer to those around them.

Rules for Posting a Reply:

This type of topic will involve a variety of differing opinions and as previously stated NO ANSWER is Right or Wrong. However we will mandate per our site rules that ALL RESPONSES BE RESPECTFUL AND POLITE AND KIND. The idea is to LEARN from this experience and discussion(s) and not 'showcase a reply so we look good', 'try to be hurtful' or even play 'armchair quarterback after the fact'.

Please keep in mind your initial response as to WHAT WE WOULD DO may change after ongoing discussion. This is most likely good. However to affect that change a variety of opinions will need to be presented which means a variety of options for solutions. Please consider all choices/options as VALID and do not dismiss them simply because they are not what you would have done. The truth is...no one knows what they would really do UNLESS THEY WERE ACTUALLY THE ONE IN THE SITUATION. And since we do not have a real hidden camera to film you we will rely on your honesty in your replies.

So may the discussion begin.

1. What would you do in this situation?
2. Why would you choose this course of action?

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

Ok, I'll go. As everybody on the site knows, I'm always willing to share my 2 psi! I'm not an expert diver, but I believe I have a pretty good handle on my own buoyancy.

Why I would choose my course of action:
If I saw someone struggling with buoyancy, I would offer to help them because I'd rather try to help (and maybe get told MYOB) than watch someone suffer from DCS or maybe even die.

What I would do in this situation:
I would probably try to be very tactful in how I approach the subject, taking them aside to talk, or sitting next to them on the boat so as not to embarrass the diver in front of others. Maybe ask first if they were having equipment problems to ease into the discussion, explaining to them what I was witnessing (surprisingly, some may not realize they're struggling), and trying to steer the conversation into fine-tuning buoyancy. I know there are some divers who may think they know everything already, but I haven't really run into them personally on a dive trip. Most divers want to improve, and will listen to helpful advice, and then choose to use or discard said advice. If I try to help and they don't want it, I will back off and know that I did my best to help. I would then ask that diver's buddy to watch closely for any emergency situation with his buddy. And if we're on a boat, I'd ask the boat crew if they have oxygen on board....

Respectfully submitted, and looking forward to other replies.

[gcbryan]

More than likely I wouldn't do anything unless asked. My thought process is that by the time we/they are on a dive boat there isn't a lot of teaching/learning that is going to go on and I would probably stay away.

If they asked for advice during a surface interval or if I overheard them discussing their issues with their dive buddy I would probably offer some quick solutions (small air bursts and wait for the result) to make their second dive a little more pleasant. Otherwise, it's a bigger problem than I would have the time or desire to deal with while on vacation.

[Monkey Diver]

A missing factor is if their buddy or some other supervision is present. I will assume that there is no buddy or supervision. Under the scenario you described the person should already be suffering from an embolism, but for discussion sake I'll make another assumption that at this point they are just demonstrating very bad diving skills that could lead to dire consequences. I would approach the diver underwater or preferably at the surface, first ask them if they are OK, assess their mental and physical condition, and communicate verbally or by slate that they are not diving safely and should return to the boat for further discussion. If they refuse, I feel I've done my part. Once back on board I would notify the captain and/or DM of what happened, and make a not in my log. I would do this because I would never think not to do it.

[WreckWench]

Great input so far and differing as I suspected. Since in the real world we do not possess all the REAL information we often have to make some assumptions and act upon them. Then we look for feedback and continue to refine the process.

I am quite pleased with the responses so far.

[finGrabber]

I'd probably approach them on board the boat and ask how many dives they have, etc

then depending on how that conversation goes, I'd bring up that they seem to be struggling with their buoyancy; depending on their reaction would dictate how I would proceed. Though I'd probably also tell them that the single best advice I've gotten is to decend slowly and check how neutral I am along the way, adding some air, taking some out, etc

[shadragon]

This happened to me in Egypt. Saw that exact situation in 65' of water. Guy was up - down - up - down and looked really frustrated. I ended up swapping buddies with him (the newly paired buddies took off) and I stayed to show him how to adjust with small bursts. Back on the boat I found out that was only dive #6 for him and he had never been deeper than 30'. I ended up diving with the guy for the rest of the week. Great fella and his buoyancy really improved. Experienced divers had helped me in the past and it was doubtful he was going to figure it out by himself...

I stepped in as that was very dangerous behaviour and it was easily fixed. He was eager to learn and that made all the difference. If he had rebuffed my attempt to help I would have swum away with a clear conscience, had a quiet word with the DM and if things did not improve, send him a card when he got out of the chamber.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I'd report this to the DM, and I'd suggest that the DM take things from there. (The DM is receiving a fee in connection with services to divers on the dive. You aren't.) If you aren't an instructor or a professional, you have no business "teaching" someone in this circumstance. The minute you step in, you take on the responsibility of a dive professional whether you are one or not. Even if you know the skill, that does not mean that you know how to teach it. Mentoring is not the same thing as teaching. By all means be a mentor, but do not become an instructor in this situation.

Getting involved can mean jeopardizing your own safety. Are you going to let this person pull you to the surface? Where is this person's buddy? That is the person that has agreed to dive with this diver, and agreed to at least some degree of risk. Why isn't the buddy doing anything about the situation?

This is very similar to a situation that is an exam question in cave diving certification. It is based on an actual happening where a buddy team is headed out of a cave, and the team comes upon two divers that seem to be struggling over sharing gas and appear to be lost. Getting overly involved in such a situation can lead to four people drowning instead of just two. Sure, try to lend some assistance by pointing with a light so that the pair can find the way, but don't go and get in the middle of a pair that is already on the edge. Perhaps drop a bailout bottle near the pair, but don't go and put yourself right in the middle of things.

This may all sound cold hearted. However, there have been enough cases where people trying to help out ended out becoming involved in accidents. Help only insofar as you are not also risking yourself. Better that there is one less fatility or accident on a dive.

[ScubaPunk]

Something similar to this happened on a dive I was on. Not quite as bad as you described. They were two fairly new divers buddied together. The divers eventually got separated from the group and surfaced ahead of everyone else. Once onboard, I approached the divers. I was the first one on the boat after them, and so we were the only ones on the boat. So in typical punk fashion, I went over to them and whispered (eventhough we were the only ones on the boat except the captain), "hey, you two know you were all over the water column out there?, What are you doing on the boat?" I knew these two people pretty well, and they did not take offense, but started to explain why they were doing what they were doing and how they got lost from the group, so decided to surface. This gave me an opportunity to try to instruct them where they went wrong. They improved tremendously throughout the week.

I think the important thing is to not be cross or accusing. Find out if it was some sort of equipment problem, or some other reason. Then offer help if it is being well received.

[BeachJunkie]

I still consider myself a new diver so this sort of situation could just as easily involve me being the one going up and down in the column. That being said, I would more than likely try to get their attention and ask if they were ok and maybe get the buddies attention and see if he noticed his dive partner bouncing around the way they were. But farther than that, I don't think I would do anything while in the water. Unless of course I was that persons dive buddy. If that was the case I would probably surface with them and mention the situation to them and talk out the problem. I would rather spend a few extra minutes with someone while they worked the kinks out than watch them kill themselves. As dissapointing as it would be to call a dive on someone elses account, it would be a much better trade off than calling a whole trip because someone got an embolism or died.

I was lucky enough to get hooked up with a scuba club right after I got certified. My first dive with them I got paired up with a very experienced dive master who asked my experience level and was more than helpful in anything I would ask. On our first dive together we dropped down the line to the dive platform (in a quarry) and established nuetral boyancy there before heading out to explore. This extra 3 minutes spent getting settled in at depth and just having a little extra practice made things infinitely better for the whole dive. It also made me more comfortable knowing that my dive buddy was looking out for me too. I have since made this a habit to do with everyone I dive with.

I know this is a hypothetical situation but I would want to know who the person's instructor was too. They obviously didn't do a very good job teaching boyancy to the student. Just my .02

[Jake Blues]

I'd report this to the DM, and I'd suggest that the DM take things from there. (The DM is receiving a fee in connection with services to divers on the dive. You aren't.) ****snip***

well as the DM-Instructor receiving this tip....

We do get some pretty green divers from time to time on my boat (liveaboard) and just 2 weeks ago I had a similar case to our hypothetical case in this thread....

On or boat we offer a buoyancy clinic after the checkout dive and after seeing this individual and hearing about the situation from other divers, I do try to take the individual aside and offer buoyancy suggestions. It is part of my job...

For someone like the OP described, I always try to remind them of the fin pivot exercise from their training. More often than not you get a vaguely blank look and "oh yeah that" as a response but with a little verbal description often they remember unless they haven't been in the water since their checkout dives or resort based 2-3 day training course (of which I will admit to having taught at previous shops).

I always recommend they do their fin pivots on each dive.... once you explain that you had to do it yourself for "like the first XXX dives" they often relent and get over the insecurity of being a new diver and doing something that looks like "new diver stuff".



my 2psi
GR

[diverdeb]

I know this is a hypothetical situation but I would want to know who the person's instructor was too. They obviously didn't do a very good job teaching boyancy to the student. Just my .02

I usually don't comment on things like this but I just can't help it. As an instructor, I would ask not who there instructor was, but how many dives they have and if they have taken any advanced classes. I like to use this comparison. Open Water class is like kindergarten. In kindergarten you learn your abc's, how to count, colors, and finish - if you're smart - knowing how to read . . . but just a little.

OW puts you at that level. If you take AOW, you can consider yourself graduating from elementary school. Add enough experience dives and maybe you've made it through middle school. You get the idea.

So to blame an instructor that a student doesn't look great in the water after finishing their OW class is unfair. There is personal responsibility to improve your skills.

Just my 2psi.

[shadragon]

So to blame an instructor that a student doesn't look great in the water after finishing their OW class is unfair. There is personal responsibility to improve your skills.

Few divers look great after their OW class. You are right. It does not reflect on the instructor quality, but can be caused by many factors of personal psychology, peer pressure and sheer nervousness. Diving is a series of very simple skills, but time and encouragement are needed to hone them. Confidence is built dive by dive.

Oh wait, here is the answer:



This must be the same stuff they put in womens shampoo...

When you see something truly frightening then the local DM should be told. It is their dive op after-all.

[georoc01]

I know this is a hypothetical situation but I would want to know who the person's instructor was too. They obviously didn't do a very good job teaching boyancy to the student. Just my .02

I usually don't comment on things like this but I just can't help it. As an instructor, I would ask not who there instructor was, but how many dives they have and if they have taken any advanced classes. I like to use this comparison. Open Water class is like kindergarten. In kindergarten you learn your abc's, how to count, colors, and finish - if you're smart - knowing how to read . . . but just a little.

OW puts you at that level. If you take AOW, you can consider yourself graduating from elementary school. Add enough experience dives and maybe you've made it through middle school. You get the idea.

So to blame an instructor that a student doesn't look great in the water after finishing their OW class is unfair. There is personal responsibility to improve your skills.

Just my 2psi.

I look at OW was like getting my learner's permit when I was getting my drivers license. AOW was like the day I received my license itself. It wasn't still I had about 50 dives after that I would considered myself at least confident under water on my own.

[WreckWench]

I still consider myself a new diver so this sort of situation could just as easily involve me being the one going up and down in the column. That being said, I would more than likely try to get their attention and ask if they were ok and maybe get the buddies attention and see if he noticed his dive partner bouncing around the way they were. But farther than that, I don't think I would do anything while in the water. Unless of course I was that persons dive buddy. If that was the case I would probably surface with them and mention the situation to them and talk out the problem. I would rather spend a few extra minutes with someone while they worked the kinks out than watch them kill themselves. As dissapointing as it would be to call a dive on someone elses account, it would be a much better trade off than calling a whole trip because someone got an embolism or died.

Excellent on several accounts... 1) this can happen to ANY diver that makes a significant gear change like adding another wetsuit over an existing one and then not knowing how to dial in the add'l lead needs. In fact the primary reason that most divers find themselves in this situation is being overweighted. This often happens becuase we learned that way and we rationalize that its better to be heavy than not heavy enough. However if you are TOO heavy you will be up and down more than you like and often realize. Also what goes in...must come out. And around about 30 feet you need to be dumping air if you put a bunch in at the bottom or you will soon find yourself at the surface. Conversely if you don't put enough air in you'll find you are steadily sinking and not realize that you are losing depth in the water column. These are NOT exclusively newbie diver issues. Diving in a new and exciting environment will often cause you to 'lose track' and the next thing you know you are deeper than you wanted or shallower than you wanted. It happens. The trick is to KNOW IT WILL HAPPEN AND BE AWARE.

I was lucky enough to get hooked up with a scuba club right after I got certified. My first dive with them I got paired up with a very experienced dive master who asked my experience level and was more than helpful in anything I would ask. On our first dive together we dropped down the line to the dive platform (in a quarry) and established nuetral boyancy there before heading out to explore. This extra 3 minutes spent getting settled in at depth and just having a little extra practice made things infinitely better for the whole dive. It also made me more comfortable knowing that my dive buddy was looking out for me too. I have since made this a habit to do with everyone I dive with.

Again excellent for a number of reasons. Many people find SingleDivers.com right after getting certified and we cater to the new diver just as your experienced DM did with you. We even have a program where you can hire a DM or Instructor to dive with you for a very reasonable fee of $50 per day or $150 for the week. This buddy is a mentor, helper, and will allow you to focus on YOU and getting comfortable or even assisting with observations not clear to you such as being overweighted or even a gear malfunction such as a leak in a wing/bladder. And the 3 minute trick as you call it is invaluable as it allows you to settle out, get calm or remain calm and then be prepared to do your dive. I still to this day do EXACTLY THAT. I relax, get neutrally bouyant and take a minute to just relax and start my dive with a plan.

I know this is a hypothetical situation but I would want to know who the person's instructor was too. They obviously didn't do a very good job teaching boyancy to the student. Just my .02

As mentioned before it serves no value to criticize an instructor for the percieved lack of instruction. The student has a huge role in the equation.

My instructor was amazing however sadly I was a very poor student who had no business in the water nor graduating for that matter. In fact it took me 4 times to pass my open water class and 2-3 times to pass EVERY pool session but I did ace the bookwork! So even when I FINALLY did pass the basic skills I knew I was not ready to be on my own. I immediately signed up for advance open water and I also paid my instructor to let me dive with him EVERYTIME he brought a group to the quarry to get certified. I essentially paid for a private DM who would babysit me while I watched each new class of open water students and would practice the skills over and over...well except for mask clearing and I'd only do that once or twice. Then I got a job at the quarry so I could get to know other divers so I could try to find those more advanced divers who might take pity on me and dive with me so I could improve my skills. My first 200 dives were all in the same fresh water quarry and with nothing less than a DM. Then I started getting groups of people together to go diving with me that I knew so I could relax not worrying that they would make fun of me or criticize me.

In the course of this experience I learned amazing bouyance becuase I imitated the DM/Instructor and I finally got rid of some of the extra weight that I felt I needed because I held too much air in my lungs and then got panicky that I could not sink. Basically I was logging time in the water to get comfortable with just being in the water and with the concept of diving in general. That was 1600+ dives ago and a number of certifications including DM and as a result I am acutely aware of the problems new divers face since I've had them all...blind aka vision issues/prescription masks, claustraphobic, repetitive previous near drowning victim, couldn't clear my mask due to being nose breather, ear equalization issues, sinus problems, weak swimmer, panic attacks, etc.

So no matter how great your instructor was...you may just not be getting it all pulled together or still need remedial work even though you "passed" the basic skills.