40 replies to this topic

[ScubaDadMiami]

It's one thing to deviate from perfect control as a new diver. It is quite another to be moving up and down the water column as this scenario describes. Students should not be certified until they can repeatedly demonstrate the kind of control that will prevent the types of serious accidents that could happen with out of control ascents.

I didn't mention this earlier because this could have just been a case of a diver that was once competent but hasn't been in the water for a long time before this outing.

[gcbryan]

As an aside, I agree that establishing neutral buoyancy at the beginning of every dive is a good idea (of course!) but fin pivots? If you are on a platform in a quarry it would do no harm but on a reef or silty environment I can't see having someone essentially lay down on the bottom. How about just hover above the bottom without moving at the start of a dive to get neutral buoyancy dialed in?

I know this isn't the point of the thread but I never understood fin pivots or that buddha (vertical) hover move from OW class. No wonder new divers can't hover horizontally and stay off the bottom...they aren't taught to do it in OW.

[Jake Blues]

As an aside, I agree that establishing neutral buoyancy at the beginning of every dive is a good idea (of course!) but fin pivots? If you are on a platform in a quarry it would do no harm but on a reef or silty environment I can't see having someone essentially lay down on the bottom. How about just hover above the bottom without moving at the start of a dive to get neutral buoyancy dialed in?

I know this isn't the point of the thread but I never understood fin pivots or that buddha (vertical) hover move from OW class. No wonder new divers can't hover horizontally and stay off the bottom...they aren't taught to do it in OW.

yes PIN FIVOTS.....

why fin pivots you ask?? Because you give them a solid surface to start from... start negative and slowly find neutral. if they are elevatoring as we call it then they typically in a state of compound frustration. You can alleviate much of the frustration due to unwanted and unexpected movement by putting the individual on the floor. all very simplistic and elementary, yes, but the individual fighting frustration and buoyancy and and and is not in an ideal position to respond as pragmatically, rationally and articulately as they might had this challenge manifested itself on dry land where they can talk it out with a teacher.

during the standard start to our itinerary, there are a number of sites we do which have SAND. And even without, I would rather see a gentle fin pivot ON A REEF than the "THRASHING" that is the alternative. After you watch a couple vase sponges die brutally, trust me, you learn how to find a nice piece of sand or algae dominated rubble during the predive current checks. plus we know our sites. we know where we can put in 10 yards off in a direction and find what we need.

This thread is referring to a potentially DANGEROUS TO SELF AND FAUNA ALIKE BEHAVIOUR. A drastic situation calls for this drastic of a measure only comes aboard maybe once a month, thankfully, but back when i was working a SHORE-BASED job, it was almost routine.... maybe 1-2 divers a week.

Again this is a tool we use in teaching and the teaching does not end when you graduate out of kindergarten to use DiverDeb's analogy. Also, this is just something I have had to use an have used with a modicum of success.

my 1/7 bar extended
GR

Edited by Jake Blues, 05 January 2009 - 06:55 PM.

[BubbleBoy]

I would tend to take more of an emergency view this situation, one that warrants rescue level action. A diver experiencing severe problems with buoyancy control and vertical instability is in danger, whatever the cause or reason. Though most have assumed a lack of diver training or skill, another possible explanation could be equipment failure, such as a sticky inflator valve. If that were the cause, it could quickly progress from a moderately manageable condition to a more severe and threatening failure, such as an inflator valve stuck wide open.

I think anytime a diver is experiencing abnormal conditions which are potentially life threatening, it’s time to thumb the dive until the problem is resolved.

[shadragon]

I think anytime a diver is experiencing abnormal conditions which are potentially life threatening, it’s time to thumb the dive until the problem is resolved.

True, but when dealing with an inexperienced diver the smallest issues can become life threatening in a heartbeat if not addressed. What is inconsequential to you and me may freak out an OW diver.

Fin pivots and Buddha position are great for newbies to learn about breathing affecting buoyancy and how to maintain a neutral state.

[gcbryan]

I think anytime a diver is experiencing abnormal conditions which are potentially life threatening, it’s time to thumb the dive until the problem is resolved.

True, but when dealing with an inexperienced diver the smallest issues can become life threatening in a heartbeat if not addressed. What is inconsequential to you and me may freak out an OW diver.

Fin pivots and Buddha position are great for newbies to learn about breathing affecting buoyancy and how to maintain a neutral state.

(This is a serous question by the way)
What is it about the Buddha position that teaches a newbie to learn about breathing affecting buoyancy that a more realistic position (horizontal) wouldn't? Horizontal is easier than Buddha isn't it? If they were used to a horizontal position and the feeling of moving up and down with each breath it would be more realistic and it would also make possible establishing neutral buoyancy without laying down on the bottom (fin pivot).

I understand Jake Blues post regarding the fin pivot in a panicking diver situation but I don't get the Buddha thing (and if not for that the fin pivot wouldn't be necessary either).

Getting back to the original post...I agree that the dive should be over until they get whatever the problem is fixed (equipment/training).

Edited by gcbryan, 05 January 2009 - 09:53 PM.

[Jake Blues]

I think anytime a diver is experiencing abnormal conditions which are potentially life threatening, it’s time to thumb the dive until the problem is resolved.

True, but when dealing with an inexperienced diver the smallest issues can become life threatening in a heartbeat if not addressed. What is inconsequential to you and me may freak out an OW diver.

Fin pivots and Buddha position are great for newbies to learn about breathing affecting buoyancy and how to maintain a neutral state.

(This is a serous question by the way)
What is it about the Buddha position that teaches a newbie to learn about breathing affecting buoyancy that a more realistic position (horizontal) wouldn't? Horizontal is easier than Buddha isn't it? If they were used to a horizontal position and the feeling of moving up and down with each breath it would be more realistic and it would also make possible establishing neutral buoyancy without laying down on the bottom (fin pivot).

I understand Jake Blues post regarding the fin pivot in a panicking diver situation but I don't get the Buddha thing (and if not for that the fin pivot wouldn't be necessary either).

Getting back to the original post...I agree that the dive should be over until they get whatever the problem is fixed (equipment/training).

the biggest thing about buddha is that it prevents the diver from sculling or finning to maintain position. It forces the diver to use ONLY lung volume to control buoyancy. IMHO most people would have to be handcuffed and shackled to keep their arms and legs completely still. The whole point is to learn to overcome the innate need to flutter appendages around, something that holding your fins with your hands accomplishes admirably. plus if done right can help you attain a higher level of consciousness and allow the new zen / buddhist to become one with the water and become a spiritual diver....

yeah ok that last bit was bs but it was fun to write

I think I might be up to 6-8 psi by now... stop me any time...
GR

[peterbj7]

help you attain a higher level of consciousness and allow the new zen / buddhist to become one with the water and become a spiritual diver....

But where do you put your motorcycle when your hands are holding your fins?

If I were on a (pleasure) dive with complete strangers and I saw a solitary diver doing this, with no other help to hand, I think I'd first ask him (either sex, but it's simpler to speak of the generic "him") by signals if he was OK. Then I'm afraid I'd probably kick into instructor mode and hold him while I showed him how much adjustment to apply. I'm assuming he would be receptive to assistance. If for some reason he wasn't (receptive) I'd still stay with him, wait until he had gone up some way, then signal him to go to the surface. If he did I'd talk to him there and try to get him to appreciate how dangerous his dive profile was. If he carried on doing it I'd simply refer him to a relevant diving authority and try not to be in the water with him again.

[shadragon]

the biggest thing about buddha is that it prevents the diver from sculling or finning to maintain position. It forces the diver to use ONLY lung volume to control buoyancy. IMHO most people would have to be handcuffed and shackled to keep their arms and legs completely still. The whole point is to learn to overcome the innate need to flutter appendages around, something that holding your fins with your hands accomplishes admirably. plus if done right can help you attain a higher level of consciousness and allow the new zen / buddhist to become one with the water and become a spiritual diver....

Yeah, what he said. Apart from the Buddhist thing of course.

[Divegirl412]

Different situations. I have been buddied up with less experienced divers, and realized once in the water that they had very little buoyancy control. With one girl, I ended up manipulating her gear / BC etc and holding her hand for most of the dive, to stop her from bouncing up and down, and then once back on the boat, had a discussion with her.. telling her what I had learned from others and making suggestions about what she could do. She was very willing to learn and was actually very comfortable in the water. By the end of the trip she had improved immensely and knew it. I have seen nonbuddies do this, and usually if I notice it, I make sure they are OK and then notify the DM or whoever is responsible for the dive (eg Kamala :-) about the person. I am always open to gently offering advice, because I have learned and still learn from all the great people I have dived with from this site. But if the diver is non-receptive or a know-it-all, I quietly say something to the DMs etc and leave it up to them. I would probably be a lot more aggressive if I were on a liveaboard with the possibility of my trip being wrecked by their AGE.

[Parrotman]

I would have no qualms about discussing the situation with my buddy, new or not. If he/she can be my dive buddy then we should be able to talk about something like this. As far as how to handle the situation itself, I think I would try to assess the situation such as where is this persons buddy? Why is his/her buddy allowing this with out getting involved?

I hate to say it but I was diving on a wreck at Roatan this summer and there was a diver doing almost this very thing, although it was more due to intentionally bounce diving from the bottom up and down the side of the wreck. Turns out that this diver has been diving for many years and carries a DM card. In the situation that I was in, I kept my nose to myself.

On another trip I was diving with some fairly new divers and I saw a person having difficulty with bouancy and I made a point of letting her see me control my movement in the water without using any thing but my breathing. After the dive she came to me and asked if I could show her how to do it. By the end of the trip she was greatly improved.

However, as someone else mentioned, If I were on a liveaboard and this person was risking the trip I would most definetly get involved whether they were offended or not.

Jim

[WreckWench]

Great input so far. By and large it seems most people would help or at least try to help. This is good. A few would ignore the diver or alert someone else but most of you would try to help. I think this speaks to all of us having 'been there had that problem' ourselves. I know I sure did and if I can help another diver like so many before me helped me...then I am happy to do it.

I think I would try to assess the situation such as where is this persons buddy? Why is his/her buddy allowing this with out getting involved?

I did see this happen on several occassions. In one case the buddy had a 'same day same ocean buddy' so NEVER saw their buddy. In another case they tried to help but were too new themselves to be of much benefit so just tried to stay near and aware.

On a positive note...I was able to assist the diver and we elimated some weight from his belt. In no time he was doing 100% better and was quite surprised when he experienced his first dive and did not have to 'kick the whole time'. He said...I never knew that diving wasn't an aerobic sport!

[scubadork]

I'd report this to the DM, and I'd suggest that the DM take things from there. (The DM is receiving a fee in connection with services to divers on the dive. You aren't.) If you aren't an instructor or a professional, you have no business "teaching" someone in this circumstance. The minute you step in, you take on the responsibility of a dive professional whether you are one or not. Even if you know the skill, that does not mean that you know how to teach it. -------

Kinda harsh isn't it? I think we will just have to agree to disagree in this case. Offering pointers to someone that is struggling does not necessarily equate teaching and even if someone is not an instructor, I have no problem with someone offering me some friendly advice. To each their own I guess.

Edited by cmt489, 19 February 2009 - 08:15 PM.
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[divzac]

Interersting topic, thanks! As far as what I would do.... Yes I would find a way to offer my experience. I usually use the "I HATE WHEN I DO THAT" intro. I share what I did when I was experiencing that same problem and let them know, without saying so, that they are not alone in any struggle. I see no reason to attempt to "make" anything happen or "teach". I also would not play the instructor card.
I believe that most of the other options have been addressed, so enough outta me

[BeachJunkie]

There are people with thousands of dives and years of experience who have outstanding bouyancy and other skillsets. To not listen to them purely based on whether or not they decided to go pro seems a little silly to me. I understand that the DM gets paid to assist with things like this but there's no reason to rely solely on him. I would happily take any and all advise from someone knowledgable.