31 replies to this topic

[Dave L]

Since this site seems to have a lot of very intelligent and reasonable members, I thought I'd through out a topic for the ages. I'm sure there is no right or wrong answer but hope to get a lot of insight and ideas on the subject.

I've been involved with a discussion with a wonderful lady about the fine line between being a gentleman or a doormat. I'm sure for the ladies the question could be between being a lady and using someone (sorry don't know a better way to say it). You try to do the right thing and go out of your way to be as nice and helpful as possible only to find out that you haven't been "man enough" or made her work for your interest. Of course, then it is too late and nothing you can do to change impressions. But you never really learn as no one really wants to talk about it. What do you do the next time? I know the answer is to just be yourself, but if you are a nice guy or nice girl how do you know when you are doing too much and not gaining any respect from the person you are interested in.

Thanks for any input.

Dave

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

Great questions, DaveL! There is probably no definitive answer, unfortunately. For every woman, there is a different answer because we're all different ourselves and we're looking for different things in a man. We're contradictory creatures, too, because our hormones not only drive you crazy, they can make us swing back and forth in what we want from a man on any given day. We cannot explain it, and it makes no sense to anybody so we blame the hormones!

You're absolutely right when you say "be yourself", because the more you try to change to please a potential mate, the more of yourself you lose.

Been there, done that, trying to recover my true self now!

From my personal perspective, being a gentleman means being respectful of a ladie's wishes, if she states them. That's it!

So, be yourself, be polite (until she tells you to "talk dirty! LOL) and believe me, most women don't mind when you thump your chest from time to time and just me totally male. It may wierd us out or make us laugh, but we kinda expect it......and perverse creatures that we are, it can draw our interest!

Lotsa help, huh?

[cat fish]

....but if you are a nice guy or nice girl how do you know when you are doing too much and not gaining any respect from the person you are interested in.

Hi Dave L! I will tell you "my word"... and that word is Balance. I think in a healthy relationship (which, by the way, can be with a SO, a colleague, or even one's dog (here, I'm thinking of a Handsome Brute like Bubbles' fella, Hans!) that must exist. If balance exists, it is perfectly OK that sometimes one partner does much more and sometimes the other partner does much more. In that case, it's not 'doormatting'... it's

You try to do the right thing and go out of your way to be as nice and helpful as possible only to find out that you haven't been "man enough" or made her work for your interest.

Let me make this brief: Those of us who worked with you at BTS last weekend are well aware that you go out of your way to be as nice and helpful as possible. And guess what? You are "man enough" for anything! If a woman EVER says to you the words you quoted above, consider the possibility that she might still need more evolving, as she is still thinking like a chimpanzee. We are not on this planet to hammer each other on the head and drag each other through the trees. Healthy women who understand balance do not think or say those things, as we are not in a "contest." By the way, balance also takes care of the problem that we are sometimes contradictory, as Ms Landlocked Dive Nut mentions. And talking dirty. All Right!! Sassi and I will be only to happy to do lots of talking dirty practice with you at the September Dive Show in D.C.!! Sassi: PM re right away, and let's get start on our word-list!!

Summary: If balance isn't in the big picture, IMO... the waters are dangerous!

[WreckWench]

I did not pen this...but several of our members have it as their signature and it sums it up.

Do not make someone a priority in your life if they only make you an option in theirs!

In other words...don't try to 'win them over showing them how great you are and what a great catch you'd be unless there is some real interest there which you should eventually see.'

Sadly some people can feign interest to compensate for 'need' meaning they NEED you so they are interested in you. Life can be twisted this way but if she only calls you to fix something and not just for fun sometimes...or shows in other ways that you are important to her...then take a second look at her motives. Is she caught between a rock and hard spot? Does her need to survive override her need to be a nice gal? or not take advantage of someone's generosity? This is especially hard if the guy is working really hard to prove he can be a great provider, great 'fixer' and great find....he may be trying too hard to please and miss the signs that he is getting 'useds vs. getting respected and appreciated.

And ultimately its a fine line. I dated a guy once during a bad time in my life. I had a number of things going wrong and I'm sure his friends thought I was using him...I doubt he did as he kept begging me to give him a chance. He'd say "I know I'm not your type but I'm a great this or a great that and he kept making it harder and harder to say no." In the end I bent over backwards to be a great friend and to return his kindness. But I did not fall in love with him and I know he was hurt by that. In fact when he finally accepted that I had not fallen in love with him...he did feel used. Fortunately in time he finally saw his actions as contributing to those feelings later down the road. We are still friends and he learned with the gal he ultimately married to 'show' her what he was capable of but to wait until she had EARNED the right to be the benefactor of all that generosity.

They have been married for about 7 years now...I think he finally figured it out.

[peterbj7]

IMO you should work hard to emphasise your better points and inhibit those less attractive, and there's nothing wrong with biasing this to the character of the other person. But once you start suppressing the real you in an attempt to become the person you believe the other person wants you to be then you're lost. The tragedy is that people who are fundamentally incompatible can fool themselves for years and enter into a long-term relationship (marriage or equivalent) which shouldn't have happened and is doomed to cause misery for its duration.

Mind you, I've succeeded in avoiding committment for too many years so who am I to talk?!

[Dave L]

Thanks for all the reply's. Balance definitely seems to be the answer in this and many other areas of life. I liked the don't do for her what you wouldn't do for a guy. While that is good advise, I have buddies I've been to hell and back with and I would do more for them than most. But that is another topic and not really in this area that we are talking about.

I like Wreck Wench's quote pretty good. I think that really sums it up. As I said in my first post, this site is tops. Came here to dive and got a whole lot more.

Dave

[ScubaSis]

Well, I dated a guy for a very short time that kept trying to 'do" things for me. I kept telling him I was not wanting a serious relationship. He kept on and kept on trying to tell me and show me what all things he could do for me. I finally had to break it off with him before it went too far. He could not take me for my word about how I felt at the time. I guess he was the pushy type. He was a very nice person, but wanted more than I could give at the time and I didn't want to keep taking.

I agree with the word "Balance" and the phrase Kamala posted. It needs to come from both parties not just one of you.

[bowjunkie]

Well i must agree with the Wench to some extent .... but I'm still an old fashioned redneck ,you know open the door for a Lady carry the groceries ,and if I invite her to dinner I foot the bill, yup been burned a few times but learn from it and you will get where your going one day .......

just my $.02 worth

[lynnlchan]

Well i must agree with the Wench to some extent .... but I'm still an old fashioned redneck ,you know open the door for a Lady carry the groceries ,and if I invite her to dinner I foot the bill, yup been burned a few times but learn from it and you will get where your going one day .......

just my $.02 worth

I think we've all been burned before but that's okay. If you don't take the risk there would never be any rewards.

Lots of good advice out here. Don't buy anyone telling you you're 'not man enough'. Women appreciate nice guys.


I think that was maybe only one cent worth.

[cat fish]

Well i must agree with the Wench to some extent .... but I'm still an old fashioned redneck ,you know open the door for a Lady carry the groceries ,and if I invite her to dinner I foot the bill, yup been burned a few times but learn from it and you will get where your going one day .......

just my $.02 worth

Hi bowjunkie... Those are wonderful traits, and real women appreciate and are not afraid of them. Women who are potential keepers are OK that you want that, and know how to provide balance in other ways, such as cooking You dinner, writing you a special note, sending you a book they think you'd like... whatever. I think it is OK to take a chance, and even sometimes to get burned... otherwise, how do we know?? But, if one's efforts remain un-reciprocated, then it's probably time to think about what Wench's quote is saying.

This is just my $.02 worth. Hey, we're up to $.04 !!!!

[ScubaSis]

Well i must agree with the Wench to some extent .... but I'm still an old fashioned redneck ,you know open the door for a Lady carry the groceries ,and if I invite her to dinner I foot the bill, yup been burned a few times but learn from it and you will get where your going one day .......

just my $.02 worth

I've said it before and I'll say it again!! I like old fashioned Rednecks!!!

[TCdamsel]

Wow... I must say that I am VERY impressed with the mutual trust and respect that SDs show to one another on this site! I see people putting themselves out there and being pretty vulnerable and others responding with their experience, wisdom, and humor in a caring manner.

It really restores my faith in the human race!

[DiverBabs]

Well i must agree with the Wench to some extent .... but I'm still an old fashioned redneck ,you know open the door for a Lady carry the groceries ,and if I invite her to dinner I foot the bill, yup been burned a few times but learn from it and you will get where your going one day .......

just my $.02 worth

And don't you change a thing Ed! You're a sweetie!!

Personally, I love the "old fashioned redneck" as you put it. I know it sounds silly, but when a guy helps me put my coat on or makes sure I walk on the inside of the sidewalk - away from traffic, I like it. I guess it shows respect, but more so... it makes me feel special. I can see where guys would get very mixed signals. Like a lot of women, I'm very independent and quite used to doing things by myself. Sometimes it's hard for me to accept and/or ask for help. At the same time, I can’t stand to be “smothered”. Hmmmm….. guess there are a LOT of reasons why I’m single!

Like the others have said…. “Balance”. But, please don't change those old fashioned traits.... there are tons of gals out there that really appreciate them.

[DiveGeek]

. . . the fine line between being a gentleman or a doormat . . .

It may be a bit clichéd, but I think it all comes down to being true to yourself. We may not necessarily know what we want in/from a relationship, but I'm fairly certain that we could put together a good list of what we *don't* want. Part of being true to oneself means not allowing those boundaries to be crossed. Once we allow a boundary to be crossed, we wind up in 'trying too hard' land which, IMHO, is where the doormats reside.