64 replies to this topic

[Marvel]

As CP suggested so many months ago, I'd like to take a rescue class. I've got a decent amount of dives under my belt now & am feeling the need to work on improving skills that will serve me & others if the need arises. I get a little annoyed at the mindset that I am encountering that I "must " take an advanced class first. When I ask why, I'm told that it's needed so that I can have exposure to deep dives, wreck dives, night dives- the type of diving that I have been doing since I first got certified, in other words. MaryAnn has kindly lent me her YMCA OW training manual & there is a lot of valuable material in it (more than several other agencies). Still, there's so much I want to learn & I want additional training.

Mentoring, as Walter said, has been quite enlightening- I've learned so much from diving with Walter & from ZD during the recent FL Regional event. IMHO, the two best divers that I have ever been in the water with.

[bluedolphin]

Marvel,

I applaud your response to which class to take next. I have never taken a single speciality class have seen no need to, I got lots and lots of training in my Advanced Class and had the opportunity to try and exposure to things most divers will never have the opportunity to try. Bottom Line, so much can be gained from mentors and experience, I sometimed wonder if people aren't pushing classes for their own financial gain.

[Marvel]

... I sometimed wonder if people aren't pushing classes for their own financial gain.

(gasp) Why, Linda! The thought never crossed my :marvel: little mind!

[bluedolphin]

... I sometimed wonder if people aren't pushing classes for their own financial gain.

(gasp) Why, Linda! The thought never crossed my :marvel: little mind!

Guess I say what is on my mind

[Marvel]

... I sometimed wonder if people aren't pushing classes for their own financial gain.

(gasp) Why, Linda! The thought never crossed my :marvel: little mind!

Guess I say what is on my mind

Guess we'll get along just fine!

Seriously, the more I dive, the more I realize how much I want to learn- isn't THAT the way it's supposed to be? I didn't get sucked into the AOW right out of OW mindset because it just did not make any sense to me. It reminded me a little of "white belt syndrome" from my martial arts days. Sure, I could have taken the class & gotten the card but would that have made me an "advanced" diver in any sense of the word? I think not. Instead, I just concentrated on learning to dive & now I think I'm about ready to take some more formal training.

[SquattingRadishDM]

I get a little annoyed at the mindset that I am encountering that I "must " take an advanced class first. When I ask why, I'm told that it's needed so that I can have exposure to deep dives, wreck dives, night dives - the type of diving that I have been doing since I first got certified, in other words

Marvel, most people don't do what you have done tho (OW and 120 dives). Many people are striving to reach the highest cert level they can in the shortest time possible for whatever reasons they may have, I appluad you for not having this attitude . However cert agencies have to set minimum prerequisites for courses and removing AOW and allowing OW to train as rescue divers could mean that people with the minimum number of dives (PADI: 20), having never been deeper than 30' and not competent to look after themselves let alone rescue someone else could start Rescue training. This is a worst case scenario as to the standard of diver that COULD take the Rescue class based on fullfilling the prerequisites, not a slur on newbies, as I will admit I was a terrible newbie.

Its a Beurocracy thing really, they should say "AOW or evidence of experience in Deep, Nav, night etc diving" and leave it to instructor. However then you wouldn't be forced to "Put Another Dollar In" for the AOW

Sure, I could have taken the class & gotten the card but would that have made me an "advanced" diver in any sense of the word? I think not. Instead, I just concentrated on learning to dive & now I think I'm about ready to take some more formal training.

A good post-OW mindset that should be adopted by many new divers.

[Walter]

Fortunately, all agencies don't that that restriction. Marvel, we'll get you through the class.

[Diverbrian]

Actually, the one organization that I deal with doesn't have that restriction either. Stress and Rescue is nothing more on paper than another specialty course. There are no prereqs. Of course, they do require the first aid cert from a reputable agency (like American Red Cross) and O2 Provider course (which legimately requires no experience as a diver) to issue the card after you have taken the course.

[Marvel]

Its a Beurocracy thing really, they should say "AOW or evidence of experience in Deep, Nav, night etc diving" and leave it to instructor. However then you wouldn't be forced to "Put Another Dollar In" for the AOW

Ah, right to the heart of the matter Jack. Not that I have anything against any particular agency- only rigid regulations that do SEEM to be driven by revenue....

Fortunately, all agencies don't that that restriction. Marvel, we'll get you through the class.

I have every confidence in that, Walter. Just thought I'd contribute to the discussion from my point of view since it is on my mind these days.

Of course, they do require the first aid cert from a reputable agency (like American Red Cross) and O2 Provider course (which legimately requires no experience as a diver) to issue the card after you have taken the course.

Now THOSE kinds of requirements are logical & have merit!

[jextract]

Marvelicious, sounds like you are having some of the same "marketing" issues that I did when I started my divemaster program. In fact, I PMed someone very helpful from this board who enabled me to frame the program a bit differently and quite frankly kept me from abandoning it altogether. I started the DM program to help people who want to learn something I love and to help other divers become better. I was absolutely disgusted at the marketing/business end that was relentlessly pushed on me. Yeah, I know that diving is a business. But I don't like to be hard-sold any more than the people that my agency wants me to hard-sell. And I won't do it to others, agency be damned.

[SquattingRadishDM]

I was absolutely disgusted at the marketing/business end that was relentlessly pushed on me. Yeah, I know that diving is a business. But I don't like to be hard-sold any more than the people that my agency wants me to hard-sell. And I won't do it to others, agency be damned.

Yeah I agree, a certain agency does tend to push the marketing aspect a bit too heavily in their DM course. I was waiting for them to end the Manual by saying "...Now go out there and make us rich!". The "certain agency" does allow itself to be turned into a discover scuba to AOW production line, churning through unsuspected holiday makers that only wanted to get a tan, and now have a card that says "Advanced Diver" and a few hundred less dollars in their wallets

This is not true of the majority of instructors or LDS associated with this agency as most are more concerned with the individual than $$$ . And as we all know its the instructor that makes the difference not the cert. agency.

Ill get off my soap box now

[peterbj7]

Jack - if that's how you found your DM course you just wait till your IDC!

[Walter]

we all know its the instructor that makes the difference not the cert. agency.

That's a common misconception. While the instructor can be more important, the agency has a big impact. You can't teach what you never learned. Agencies set the standards by which instructors teach. The vast majority of instructors teach exactly what the standards require - no more and no less. There are those (unfortunately) rare exceptional instructors who go beyond requirements and those (fortunately) rare (but still too common) instructors who violate standards by cutting corners, but for the most part, you get exactly what the agency has laid out in the standards. Most instructor candidates are like baby birds taking in and swallowing everything given to them in their instuctor course. What they are given is the party line. They are told what to teach and how to teach it. When we tell people the agency isn't important, we are misleading them.

I don't have a beef with anyone trying to make a living teaching diving. Profit is a good thing. I object to an inferior product. I see too much of it and this month's Dive Training even has an article explaining why an inferior product is a good thing. It's not a good thing and articles like that disgust me.

[SquattingRadishDM]

Jack - if that's how you found your DM course you just wait till your IDC!

Im thinking of taking my IDC next summer and am mulling over which agency to go with. Im currently PADI DM and like that its the most widespread, hence more job opportunities for a PADI instructor. But looking at the other agencies like NAUI, SSI and YMCA Im thinking of switching, dont know yet and dont want to start any agency bashing. I guess I could always take multiple IDCs, course overload tho!

but for the most part, you get exactly what the agency has laid out in the standards.

Walter, this has been my experience too and was what I was trying to say in my prev. post. Certain agencies standards systems seem to allow the Try-Dive to AOW production line.

Like I said I only have experience of one agency so dont have any basis for comparing them and dont want to be responsible for turning this thread into an agency-bashing-fest. However I refuse to be a corporate monkey (..........still trying to find a suitable emoticon).

[Walter]

Certain agencies standards systems seem to allow the Try-Dive to AOW production line.

Actually, I believe they all allow it. The differences lie in the courses themselves. Some actively encourage no gap between courses, but honestly, there is more difference between instructors than agencies in spacing between classes.

Agency bashing is not a good thing. OTOH, every bad thing said about an agency is not bashing. If you say "Agency A is horrible," that is bashing. If you say, "Agency A doesn't require skill B in their X class and I think that is an unsafe practice," that is not bashing. It is pointing out a legitimate disagreement you have with Agency A and explaining why. I would then have the option of explaining why I thought Agency A shouldn't include skill B in their X class. That is informed debate, not bashing.

I only have experience of one agency so dont have any basis for comparing them

Comparisons of agencies are very rare. I can point you to one I wrote a few years ago if you're interested.