52 replies to this topic

[peterbj7]

While we're on relatively obscure agencies, anyone out there own up to have a cert from Hal Watts? I only know one person who did any qualification with his PSA.

[Walter]

We're on "relatively obscure agencies?"

Hal Watts advocates deep air. I think it's a bad idea.

[BradfordNC]

Walter,

he created his own agency?

does anyone acknowledge it as a creditable agency?

and what depths does he advocate for "deep air" ??

and is it NDL diving???

[TraceMalin]

Well, Jarrod Jablonski did the same thing with GUE, Tom Mount with IANTD, Brett Gilliam with TDI, Pipin Fererras with IAFD and so on...

Once you start doing things that the recreational diving agencies freak out about you pretty much have to go that route. I was surprised that I was able to get PDIC to sanction the Extended Range Freediving course I implemented in the mid-1990s. If that didn't happen, I probably would have talked to my partners at East Coast Freediver and have pursued an ECF training program for competitive freediving creating another agency.

Hal Watts set a world record for the deepest air dive along with A.J. Muns in 1967 at 390 fsw.

I believe PSA training goes to 240 ffw in 40 Fathom Grotto. As far as recognizing the certification, an OW card will allow you to make 400+ fsw dives on air. All you need to do is get air fills in your tanks and find a place that is 400+ feet deep. Smart? No.

As far as NDL goes, diving that deep involves decompression. You'd be surprised how short that deco can be though. A 240 ft. dive would only require a 2 minute stop at 10 feet if you did a touch & turn with a 5 min. BT (US Navy Standard Air Deco Tables). A 5 min BT at 300 ft. would only require a 3 minute stop at 20 and a 3 minute stop at 10 feet. Any accumulated BT at those depths can bring hours of deco. Example: 30 minutes at 300 fsw would require 172 minutes of deco.

Trace

[Dennis]

There is no government regulation, so anyone could start an agency. Introducing FBN SCUBA Certification.

[BradfordNC]

Well, Jarrod Jablonski did the same thing with GUE

As far as recognizing the certification, an OW card will allow you to make 400+ fsw dives on air. All you need to do is get air fills in your tanks and find a place that is 400+ feet deep. Smart? No.

right, but J-rod and GUE don't use air at all. they advocate 36% nitrox for all depths down to 100fsw, and trimix for anything deeper.

as for the 400 fsw part. yeah, anyone can go and do that, but it isn't recreational (nor smart).

recognized certification has nothing to do with the ability to go as deep as your silly as and a cement block will take you.

it does have to do with getting ahold of the equipment from a rebutable dealer/renter, and then using that equipment.

if i create my own agency, how many charter boats will allow me to sign on and dive a wreck in 100 fsw???

and once you go so deep that decompression is required, no matter how short that deco may be, you are no longer diving "recreationally"

and yes, i'm well aware of just how short deco times for great depths can be, especially if using the navy tables.

but once again, you're stepping outside recreational NDL limits.

[TraceMalin]

PSA was developed to train divers who were already certified to do deep decompression diving on air. So, students already had recreational diving cards. It began around the time that TDI, ANDI, IANTD, etc., were forming, perhaps even before? Most tech agencies used to require deep air diving before allowing you to do trimix training. I always felt this was like showing up for drivers ed drunk and then being allowed to drive sober once you received your license. Until recently, extended range (deep air) courses were a prerequisite for entry level trimix training with TDI and IANTD. I think the DIR/GUE movement created enough competition and reached enough people that most trimix instructors only require advanced nitrox and deco procedures before entry level trimix. PSA now teaches nitrox and trimix.

Trace

[Diverbrian]

PSA was developed to train divers who were already certified to do deep decompression diving on air. So, students already had recreational diving cards. It began around the time that TDI, ANDI, IANTD, etc., were forming, perhaps even before? Most tech agencies used to require deep air diving before allowing you to do trimix training. I always felt this was like showing up for drivers ed drunk and then being allowed to drive sober once you received your license. Until recently, extended range (deep air) courses were a prerequisite for entry level trimix training with TDI and IANTD. I think the DIR/GUE movement created enough competition and reached enough people that most trimix instructors only require advanced nitrox and deco procedures before entry level trimix. PSA now teaches nitrox and trimix.

Trace

My Advanced Nitrox instructor required one dive to 120 ft. on air. I will say that I have had better days, LOL, but that had nothing to do with the narcosis from the air.

Anyways, I understand that the standards read differently now and that is no longer required.

[Walter]

Brad,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with starting your own agency. As far as I can determne, most of the "accepted" agencies were started either by individuals or by very small groups of individuals. LA County and YMCA are exceptions to that pattern. If a respected and qualified instructor trainer from an excepted agency writes a set of standards that meets or exceeds the standards of any "accepted" agency why would you not want to accept that new agency? It's as good or better than agencies you already recognize.

[BradfordNC]

I always felt this was like showing up for drivers ed drunk and then being allowed to drive sober once you received your license.

you mean thats not how you got yours???

Walter,
i understand what your saying. just seems like a hassle. kinda like reinventing the wheel, and then trying to get everyone else to acknowledge your design.

seems that for instruction, there are more than enough certifying agencies, do we realy need more?

however, it obviosly works for those who put all the effort into creating their own agencies. no matter what the "improved" standards are, the bottom line in creating your own agency is money.

always loved how people always bash on this or that agency for being a cash sucker. always a funny argument, to which i always ask, "so does your agency and your instructors work for free?"

anyone aware of an agency that doesn't charge for certification???

[Walter]

always loved how people always bash on this or that agency for being a cash sucker. always a funny argument, to which i always ask, "so does your agency and your instructors work for free?"

Actually, I do know an instructor who teaches for free. Students pay their expenses and he does accept tips.

Usually those complaints are not about an agency or instructor charging and making a profit. Those complaints are about agencies and instructors who make a bigger profit by sacrificing quality. I can teach one class each month and certify 4 students or I can teach a class in which I leave out a great deal of content so I can teach 4 classes each month and have 10 students in each class. I can make 10 times the money by sacrificing quality. That's the complaint. It's a valid complaint, there's lots of low quality classes out there.

[peterbj7]

Actually, I do know an instructor who teaches for free. Students pay their expenses and he does accept tips.

I know the head of an agency who sometimes does this.

[bluedolphin]

I always felt this was like showing up for drivers ed drunk and then being allowed to drive sober once you received your license.

you mean thats not how you got yours???

Walter,
i understand what your saying. just seems like a hassle. kinda like reinventing the wheel, and then trying to get everyone else to acknowledge your design.

seems that for instruction, there are more than enough certifying agencies, do we realy need more?

however, it obviosly works for those who put all the effort into creating their own agencies. no matter what the "improved" standards are, the bottom line in creating your own agency is money.

always loved how people always bash on this or that agency for being a cash sucker. always a funny argument, to which i always ask, "so does your agency and your instructors work for free?"

anyone aware of an agency that doesn't charge for certification???

Brad




At the time I took my advanced through LA County the instructors did work for free, they were volunteers (that may have changed by now, I don't know). Gotta tell you that program was awsome, the training was first rate, and the price was practically nothing compared to other agencies.

Safety and training should be the primary concern of any agency not the almighty dollar.

[Walter]

Linda,

LA County has the highest standards of any agency in the world.

[bluedolphin]

Walter,

I know they do, that course about killed me, I was so tired when all was said and done (the program was about 11-12 weeks), but I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Its too bad more people did not take advantage of the program. When I took it there were about 60 something students, I think, broken into several teams, each team at had at least 2 instructors. I had heard that at one time there were upwards 100 students each summer (it was only offered once a year), but the numbers had dropped. How many people can actually say they had a controlled chamber dive, underwater construction, and surface supplied air as part of their training? We were exposed to everything and got very unbiased opinions, the real deal.

I think what turned most people off to the program was its length, and that is exactly what attracted me to the program.

Linda