52 replies to this topic

[Walter]

Linda,

We live in an instant gratification society. People want what's fastest and easiest, not what's best. That explains relative sizes. Fortunately, there are still some folks who'll pay more in time and money for true quality. You are to be commended. I'm proud of ya, darlin'.

[WreckWench]

Safety and training should be the primary concern of any agency not the almighty dollar.

I agree as does I'm sure everyone on this board. However we also live in the most capitalistic country in the world...in fact we took it to a whole new level!

So it is only natural that something as fun as diving would co-mingle with our great american passion...capitalism. Once that happens competition begins...differentiation begins and yes...how to make training 'cookie cutter' so that more people can enter the sport. Making things duplicatable and replicable is the key to success and expansion.

The agency best known for this and also most criticized happens to be the reason I'm in the sport. Had it not been for this agency I would not have gotten certified. Lynchburg, VA did not have a dive shop on every corner...in fact when I was certified about 11 years ago, they only had one. And my instructor was an ex Secret Service agent who had guarded presidents so I can assure you that he was no slouch in his training. In fact...he lost money and a good portion of his sanity on me but thats' another story!

My point is that making money is not inherently bad. And the fact that I was trained by an agency that may have the shortest certification times is also not inherently bad. It has been very good in that sense that I got into the sport when I might not of otherwise...as I've stayed in the sport I've discovered other agencies and I have taken courses from most of them. I am now a much better diver and more rounded as a result of having done so. I liken the experience to my Judo and Tai Kwondo experiences. You'll find a Tai Kwondo facility on every street corner because they are set up to make money. In an area as large as Dallas/Ft Worth Metroplex you'll only find 3-4 Dojo's for Judo because they are set up to teach the skills from one generation of student to the next like in the old school and just be profitable enough to keep running. As a result...there are very few of them and very few people are exposed to Judo.

There has to be a happy compromise. I think it is very notable that people can teach our sport for free. However if they were relying on our sport to pay their bills they could not do so UNLESS they were already successful in the industry and this was they way they gave back for their gratitude.

Do I wish now in hindsight that my course taught me more things? Sure I do. But at the time I was barely able to pass the course as it was taught. Should I not have been certified as a diver if I could barely pass the minimum standards from an agency reputed to have the most minimalistic standards? That remains to be seen and in the early days I'm sure one or two of my dive buddies (the good ones who got stuck with me) may have argued decisively their case. (Allow me to officially apologize to all those dive buddies for being one of those dive buddies everyone complains about cuz I'm sure I was!)

However, I am a product of a machine that has brought many excellent divers into this sport as well as divers like me...and I'm glad that machine was in place. I also see many if not most of the agencies now stressing quality vs. quantity and that is good. (And I know that some always stressed quality vs. quantity which has always been good!) And I hope that our industry survives and adapts to the changes being forced upon it to survive. Otherwise...we'll all have a pretty miserable time wanting to dive and having the infrastructure crumbling under us.

So bottom line....the best available is not always the best in all circumstances. I'll agrue that for one gal...having the chance to get certified was more then sufficient for me. At that time I did not need the 'best of the best' agencies...although I'll put my instructor up against anyone. A lesser instructor would have given up on me many times over!

I am just glad that we live in a world where we have choices and can educate ourselves and make then make decisions based upon that education.

[Walter]

Well, I wasn't going to get into this Kamala, but you twisted my arm.

Had it not been for this agency I would not have gotten certified.

Why wouldn't you be diving if a higher standards had been in place?

And my instructor was an ex Secret Service agent who had guarded presidents so I can assure you that he was no slouch in his training.

If your instructor was a good one (and I have no reason to doubt your assertion he was, although I don't understand the implied corelation between quarding presidents and teaching ability) then he taught well above the standards set forth by his agency anyway. In that case, there would have been no difference in your training. Why would you not have gotten certified if the instructor had been required to add the additional material he added anyway?

Do I wish now in hindsight that my course taught me more things? Sure I do. But at the time I was barely able to pass the course as it was taught.

That doesn't mean you couldn't have handled more, it means you needed a better method of presentation. Weaker students actually excell in more comprehensive classes. There was a time when most dive instructors were not teachers. They were weeding out people who couldn't hack it rather than helping people to learn, and succeed in diving. Now most instructors are still simply weeding them out with fewer skills, so fewer get dropped. Neither approach is ideal, IMHO (OK, so maybe my opinion isn't so humble). Dive instructors should be teachers before anything else. They need to help their students progress with baby steps, building confidence along the way. The tough skills like doff & don and bailout need to be part of the course, not to weed out the weak, but to make the weak strong.

Yes, we live in a world of competition and instant gratification. There are alternatives for those who strive for something better, for a safer course and while it may take longer and cost more an easier course because of the approach. The agencies with higher standards actually produce divers who enjoy diving more because they are confident and can concentrate on having fun instead of concentrating on their fear.

[peterbj7]

Twice now I've lost my post as I clicked "send"! Very briefly, then, for the third time, I started with BSAC but after months with virtually no training I abandoned it. In BSAC training is "free", which in practice means it only happens when someone takes pity on you. I went to PADI where I paid for a course and it happened. The other issue with BSAC was its extreme cliquiness.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with "instant gratification", so long as people realise what the limitations of their training are. When it becomes undesirable or even dangerous is when newly trained divers believe they've learned it all. Cold water basic training needs to be more thorough and demanding than warm, and add in techniques not required for warm (such as deploying a DSMB). I have a big problem with instructors/facilities training to the lowest warm water standards when they know those divers may well then jump into cold water believing they know enough to hack it.

[Walter]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with "instant gratification", so long as people realise what the limitations of their training are.

I agree, but then usually even their instructors don't know what those limitations are. Those limits are shallow water, no current, no seas, 50 ft+ viz and a one to one ratio of DM/instructors holding their hand. After completing such a class, you're ½ a breath away from panic. Panic will kill you.

[Walter]

In BSAC training is "free", which in practice means it only happens when someone takes pity on you. I went to PADI where I paid for a course and it happened.

I'm against the concept of free courses. You don't apprecate the value unless you pay. I thing courses should be more expensive than they are. OTOH, consumers deserve better quality than they usually get.

[Diverbrian]

In BSAC training is "free", which in practice means it only happens when someone takes pity on you. I went to PADI where I paid for a course and it happened.

I'm against the concept of free courses. You don't apprecate the value unless you pay. I thing courses should be more expensive than they are. OTOH, consumers deserve better quality than they usually get.

Not quite, I believe that my tution in Nuclear Power School was that I was getting paid to go. Believe me, when I say that I worked my tail off for that school and I definitely appreciated the value of that education.

My point is that if the customer is paying in "sweat equity", they are still paying. But free only implies no money.

[Walter]

Brian,

There are a rare few who will appreciate "free" courses, but in general, if you don't lay down cash, you don't value it. I have no doubt you are the exception.

[BradfordNC]

Actually, I do know an instructor who teaches for free. Students pay their expenses and he does accept tips.

Usually those complaints are not about an agency or instructor charging and making a profit. Those complaints are about agencies and instructors who make a bigger profit by sacrificing quality.

right, but that was by the choice of the instructor, not the certifying agency.

there are plenty of charities out there that will pay for certain people to get scuba certified for whatever reason.

but show me an agency, which is a business, that provides free certification.

and i don't think the LA County one exists anymore.

hmmmm, wonder why? i'd bet on lack of funding.

11 weeks, instructors were volunteers.
tanks, air, equipment has to come from somewhere.


and i know what your saying Walter, people misdirect their bitching.
when i hear people complain, they complain about the agency. when in fact its the instructor who was at fault. i've had some excellent instruction from the agencys some people complain about.

[BradfordNC]

There are a rare few who will appreciate "free" courses, but in general, if you don't lay down cash, you don't value it. I have no doubt you are the exception.

teach a person to fish, and they have food for life.

give the person a fish, you have created a welfare state for life.



and as for why WW wouldn't have passed. well, it's her "secret" so i'll let her tell it. but have you ever seen her in the water, other than diving? lol.

[bluedolphin]

Bradford,

I had to provide my own tanks 2 per week for the beach dives only one on the boat dive (most boats in So.CA. have compressors on board, and at Catalina they have the air fill station). I had to provide my own gear as well.

What LA County provided was training materials, instruction, 1 boat dive, weekend in Catalina (hotel and transport included in the fee), and other incidentals.

It was part of the Parks Program and they simply charged for actual and general administrative expenses. Most of the instructors did not teach for the money (they weren't getting any), they taught because they cared. I am sure part of the fee covered their boat trip and Catalina trip too, but the point is they were incredible. I do not subscribe to the school of instant gratification (probably the only one in the world who doesn't though). I also detest when sales folks try to sell you a bill of goods (I can see right through that, but then again I buy for a living).

As for the LA County program still existing??? Hmm don't know for sure, but I know just a few weeks ago they had a 50th universe celebration. So they are in existence somehow.

The instructors in the program really cared and took the time and effort to work with the students. Gosh to say I am athletically challenged would be kind even a compliment, but with work and effort I prevailed. ( I was not so lucky on the ski slope where the instructor abandoned me darning my 2nd less on Mt. Hood at night I was stuck on the mountain alone for over an hour before someone rescued me, or the tennis pro who after I paid for 6 lessons blew me off by the 3rd).

However with tenacity I also managed to complete 2 marathons one month apart.

Bottom line is Instructors who care about the student and teaching solid safe skills is what is important now how many students you can push through.

Just my 2cents....

[jextract]

Indeed the L.A. County program is still in existance. In fact I was going to sign up for the course (based on Walter's recommendation) until my life took an unexpected turn this past summer.

http://www.lascuba.com/

[peterbj7]

I think we all agree on this one. Bear in mind that payment implies committment, and there are other ways this can happen - where (learning to) dive forms part of your job, for instance. The military are the obvious example, but it also applies to some commercial organisations. The "free" teaching that both Walter and I dislike and don't feel works is where there is no committment.

[TraceMalin]

The "free" teaching that both Walter and I dislike and don't feel works is where there is no committment.

Awesome! Does this mean we're back up to US $15.00/hour for that job?

Trace

[peterbj7]

He doesn't give up......