52 replies to this topic

[BradfordNC]

interesting viewpoint. lol

my stance on this board has always been, your training is no better than my training. and my training is no better than yours.

we aren't launching space shuttles or building failsafe nuclear reactors.

its scuba diving.

you can pay $500 and take the course over 13 weeks
or $210 and take the course in one week

either way, your a certified diver

so put the reg in your mouth and get off the boat

[David Evans]

I'd agree that OW courses are too cheap - at least from the perspective of being a business owner.

Before I moved back to the Dallas area, I owned a small shop in a northern suburb of Seattle. My courses were the most expensive in the area.... $399 + books and basic gear. For the $399, my courses involved 4 pool sessions, 8 open water dives (with the last two being a boat charter), 8 lectures, and the promise that I wouldn't certify anyone until they told me they were ready - we'd keep diving together until they felt comfortable with what I was asking them to do.

I also limited my courses to a maximum of 4 students, and with a 2:1 student/instructor ratio.

Despite my higher cost, OW courses were still a loss-leader for me... I didn't make anything in the way of profit off my courses, but I do think I did a good job training, and for me that was a requirement given the challenges of learning to dive in the cold, dark, current-swept waters of the Pacific Northwest.

Now that I'm back in Texas, I'm debating whether or not I'll continue teaching as an independent instructor, or affiliate myself with a shop.

Shop affiliation means considerable cost savings on my part, which is VERY good. But it also means teaching to a different set of personal standards, which may be just fine given the diving conditions where most North Texans will find themselves.

As for agency standards: All the "major" agencies formed a body called the Recreational Scuba Training Council (RSTC) and this body created a base-line set of standards for Open Water dive training. It's because of the RSTC that PADI will accept NAUI certs, NAUI will accept SSI, SSI will accept YMCA, etc.

The problem with creating a lowest-common-denominator baseline for training standards in a market where training is considered a loss-leader to get to sell gear is that many organizations teach only to the minimum standard requirements, rather than using them as a baseline and competitively expanding their training offerings beyond that.

<general scuba industry rant>

The scuba industry has turned the value proposition model upside-down and has totally screwed things up. If you accept the premise that people spend money on what they value, then the marketing message given new divers is that training is worthless and gear is what's really valuable.

In my opinion, it means that some business owners wind up training to minimal standards to keep costs down on a money-losing endeavor (conducting training) and hope to make up for those losses by emphasizing gear sales.

Looking back on my diving career to date, I've spent FAR more money on gear than on training, but the gear is disposable - and the training is priceless.

Yet look at the typical consumer mentality: A consumer goes in to "buy" a dive certification. Shop "A" says "Your training will take 12 weeks, be quite challenging, and will cost $400". Shop "B" says "Your training will take 2 weekends and cost a hundred bucks".

Who's gonna win the consumer's business? The one that offers the least commitment, the shortest time investment, and the cheapest price.

But in the end, who got the better value - the customer of shop "A" or shop "B"?

</general scuba industry rant>

Do I think my courses are better than anyone elses? Nope - not particularly. But I do think I designed my courses the best possible way I know how, and when I'm asked to sign my name to a diver's card certifying that I think they are a scuba diver, I'm always going to do the best I can personally do.

Sorry for the preachy tone... this is a sore subject with me.

-david

[David Evans]

By the way, GUE has not yet released an Open Water training program.... Jarrod has been saying for a couple of years now that they are working on one, but nothing has materialized yet.

-d

[WreckWench]

nothing objective about many of the above statements I have read and from looking at other parts of the board I am not that impressed

Hi Scuba 1231...this is an unusual thread for SD...one that brings out varied opinions on various aspects of one topic. It started as a discussion on why so many certifying agencies to the merits of starting your own agency to a primer on standards for various agencies and then has discussed differences in teaching styles and a host of other aspects of dive training.

You've made some very valid points and seem to have already contributed to this and other threads.

I hope you take the discussions in the spirit with which they are offered...frank and objective opinions (respectful yet frank) but opinions none the less.

As scubapunk suggested...please post an intro saying hi...or even presenting your disappointment in the site so far...within a few posts you'll see the 'other side' of SD...and I'm sure you'll have plenty of dive buddies in CO shortly! In fact we've just gotten a new Happy Hour planner for CO...her name is Carla aka rkymtwy and she is awesome!

Click here to post your intro...or to say hello...or whatever!

In the meantime pls look around for other topics that might interest you. You'll find a very diverse array of topics and of course opinions on those topics. But if you decide SD is not the place you want to hang out at between dives...then we thank you for coming in and looking around! And if I can be of any assistance, pls don't hesitate to ask! Kamala aka Wreck Wench!

[scuba1231]

I decided to stay at the urgings of one of the other posters. My issue comes down to this. Diving is much like other activities and eventually becomes competitive. Much of the tone of several threads that I have read is along the lines of "my opinion is more valid than yours" "the training i recieved is better than yours" and "I have more dives than you" I wish I were wrong but that is the impression I get.

[WreckWench]

I decided to stay at the urgings of one of the other posters. My issue comes down to this. Diving is much like other activities and eventually becomes competitive. Much of the tone of several threads that I have read is along the lines of "my opinion is more valid than yours" "the training i recieved is better than yours" and "I have more dives than you" I wish I were wrong but that is the impression I get.

You are correct...that is the tone and usual posturing of the industry...what you heard many of our divers doing was repeating those posturings. Fortunately you did not see too many actually state that THEIR training was better or THEIR agency was better.

A few did say that LA Country training was stellar and I do not think anyone disagrees. A few stated that YMCA training is excellent...and I do not think anyone disagrees. I do not think you heard too many people saying "My training was better than yours" but rather discussing the issues in the industry which DOES pander the whole 'my training is better' methodolgy etc.

I think it will be rare outside of this thread to find anyone boasting of how many dives they have (well except for one where I mentioned it in the buddy thread in order to show that regardless of the number of dives you have you are ALWAYS learning...or can be...or should be...at least I know I am!) But it is rare for people to ever mention the number of dives that they have...and whoever the member was that urged you to stay...I don't think you'll be disappointed.

I saw several members concerned you were having a 'rough' first experience on the site. As was I. I'm glad you are givign us a try...and looking around some more. But please do post an intro so we can all officially say hello to you! Thanks, kamala

[Travelnsj]

I'd agree that OW courses are too cheap - at least from the perspective of being a business owner.

Before I moved back to the Dallas area, I owned a small shop in a northern suburb of Seattle. My courses were the most expensive in the area.... $399 + books and basic gear. For the $399, my courses involved 4 pool sessions, 8 open water dives (with the last two being a boat charter), 8 lectures, and the promise that I wouldn't certify anyone until they told me they were ready - we'd keep diving together until they felt comfortable with what I was asking them to do.

I also limited my courses to a maximum of 4 students, and with a 2:1 student/instructor ratio.

David,

Great post and I hope people who are shopping around for the best price could read it!

When i signed up for my open water water certification in Palm Springs I was a little upset that I paid $75.00 more than courses offered in SD (San Diego). It was a class of only 6 people and being i do not have an Athletic bone in my body, I had to end up paying for a couple of private lessons....Did I get a bargin!!

When i see those classes offered by the Sports Chalet or other large dive shops and i see 12 students or so..........I am so thankful I paid more!

Without that personal touch and the divemaster who endeavored to pursue dealing with me.....I would not be diving today!

I wish you luck in setting up your own operation and hope you are successful.

[WreckWench]

I'd agree that OW courses are too cheap - at least from the perspective of being a business owner.

Before I moved back to the Dallas area, I owned a small shop in a northern suburb of Seattle. My courses were the most expensive in the area.... $399 + books and basic gear. For the $399, my courses involved 4 pool sessions, 8 open water dives (with the last two being a boat charter), 8 lectures, and the promise that I wouldn't certify anyone until they told me they were ready - we'd keep diving together until they felt comfortable with what I was asking them to do.

I also limited my courses to a maximum of 4 students, and with a 2:1 student/instructor ratio.

David,

Great post and I hope people who are shopping around for the best price could read it!

When i signed up for my open water water certification in Palm Springs I was a little upset that I paid $75.00 more than courses offered in SD (San Diego). It was a class of only 6 people and being i do not have an Athletic bone in my body, I had to end up paying for a couple of private lessons....Did I get a bargin!!

When i see those classes offered by the Sports Chalet or other large dive shops and i see 12 students or so..........I am so thankful I paid more!

Without that personal touch and the divemaster who endeavored to pursue dealing with me.....I would not be diving today!

I wish you luck in setting up your own operation and hope you are successful.

The old adage you get what you pay for is especially true in diving! Kudos to instructors that hold out for and get more for the value they deliver!