90 replies to this topic

[webhead]

Interesting to see that the complete contemptment for the Inspiration has made it to this site from a general question on rebreathers. For the record, I dive both the Inspiration and the Megladon CCR, full trimix. I'm also an instructor for the Inspiration and plan on crossing over to the Meg when time and money permits.

I don't want to start a civil war here about rebreathers but I do want to say that I can see this technology changing the way we dive. While much work is needed to develop these units to the same standards as open circuit (weight and simplicity are the big ones), I feel that within my lifetime, rebreathers will account for half the dives done in the world. But for that to happen, everyone needs to have an open mind....and not to make snap decisions based on "evidence" passed word of mouth. And divers need to take more responsibility for their actions. For example, there was one death on the Inspiration that was said to be caused because the diver jumped in the water with the unit's electronics off. And this was said to be a dangerous design flaw of the unit - "the unit should turn on automatically when the contacts get wet or it senses an increase in pressure" was the claim. Without this feature, the Inspirations is "an accident waiting to happen". Wish my car did that - start up automatically when I press the gas or even sit in the seat and engage the seat belt. With the number of checks that are taught for the unit, I find it hard for someone to have forgotten such an important check.

While I agree rebreathers are not for everyone, yet, I always encourage all to learn more and try them whenever possible. And if you do start diving one, talk to as many people who own and dive them as you can. Listen to the good and bad and form your own opinion. What you should be able to do is listen to all the squawks about one unit, understand the issue and apply it to any unit. Then you will be better able to determine if rebreathers are for you and which one.

[Diverbrian]

Interesting to see that the complete contemptment for the Inspiration has made it to this site from a general question on rebreathers. For the record, I dive both the Inspiration and the Megladon CCR, full trimix. I'm also an instructor for the Inspiration and plan on crossing over to the Meg when time and money permits.

I don't want to start a civil war here about rebreathers but I do want to say that I can see this technology changing the way we dive. While much work is needed to develop these units to the same standards as open circuit (weight and simplicity are the big ones), I feel that within my lifetime, rebreathers will account for half the dives done in the world. But for that to happen, everyone needs to have an open mind....and not to make snap decisions based on "evidence" passed word of mouth. And divers need to take more responsibility for their actions. For example, there was one death on the Inspiration that was said to be caused because the diver jumped in the water with the unit's electronics off. And this was said to be a dangerous design flaw of the unit - "the unit should turn on automatically when the contacts get wet or it senses an increase in pressure" was the claim. Without this feature, the Inspirations is "an accident waiting to happen". Wish my car did that - start up automatically when I press the gas or even sit in the seat and engage the seat belt. With the number of checks that are taught for the unit, I find it hard for someone to have forgotten such an important check.

While I agree rebreathers are not for everyone, yet, I always encourage all to learn more and try them whenever possible. And if you do start diving one, talk to as many people who own and dive them as you can. Listen to the good and bad and form your own opinion. What you should be able to do is listen to all the squawks about one unit, understand the issue and apply it to any unit. Then you will be better able to determine if rebreathers are for you and which one.

Actually, I have dove with one diver who was using an Inspiration. The size and bulk didn't seem to be that much worse than the OC rig that I was diving (dual HP100's with a steel BP). In fact, it was probably a little better.

I plan to look somebody up when I get ready for rebreathers. (That means that I have the money to buy one AND the proper training.) I didn't see any safety issues with the Inspiration beyond what I was diving either. The checks that Mel used were exceedingly thorough and really about the same in time and energy that I put into making sure that everything is "right" on my doubles rig before going in. He showed my buddy and I where all of the safety features were in case something happened and we needed to pull him up.

As I said, right now the big issue is money AND the fact that all of my buddies are diving open circuit which would leave me (in essence) diving solo until my buddies shifted over.

[peterbj7]

He showed my buddy and I where all of the safety features were in case something happened and we needed to pull him up.

A really important point, Brian. At least one death on a CCR (happened to be an Inspiration, but could have been any) was when three mates went for a shake-down dive at the start of the season. The two OC guys were checking out cameras and other gear, plus just getting familiar with diving after a long winter break; the CCR guy was refreshing his skills. Turned out he hadn't assembled the machine properly and then hadn't done a proper negative pressure check (standard procedure) which would have shown it up. Bottom line is he flooded his loop and wasn't sufficiently on the ball to deal with it correctly (oh yes, he's the guy who had removed the built in regulator and had no bailout tank). He was also shallow enough to get out of it and swim to the surface, but instead he drowned. His mates had no idea how a CCR worked and when they saw him lying on the bottom with the loop out of his mouth amid a cloud of bubbles they thought he was just goofing around.

Critical that buddies/companions understand the basics of a rebreather and how to recognise when there's a problem.

[hnladue]

I can add to Brian's note here.... I was one of the three that dove with Brian and our rebreather buddy. He made a point to show BOTH of us how it works and he had dual computers to run the rebreather. Also he was never out of arms reach underwater. Our max depth was like 50 ft and it was a beautiful dive. Me being on 1 tank and Brian on 2 we turned when I reached 1/3. It was nice being so close to everyone and relaxed. Mel was very attentive to his computers and even showed them to me a few times, so I knew what was going on.

[maninthesea]

QUOTE (TraceMalin @ Nov 20 2004, 10:48 PM)
Can I interest anyone in a $15 snorkel? I rebreath from mine after every freedive! 

Trace 


Trace, does it have a "CE" rating? (whatever that is)

I was told it stood fro "Chinese Export"


Now for my 2 scents.

I have been lucky to have had the opurtunity to work and dive with some high caliber rebreather divers and manufacturers. A few have been mentioned or their products have been mentioned in this thread. I have owned 3 rebreathers and am saving my pennies for another. I highly modified two of the three. I have had issues and seen issues both preventable and unforseeable. I have been witness to one death.
My take on all my experience is, most any machine on the market can be dove safely or unsafely. A certification class certinly releases the mfr and distributer but it does not guarentee the diver will continue with or retain what they are tought.
The rebreather diver needs to have a COMPLETE understanding of how everything on the machine works and what would happen if it failed. The best way to survive rebreather problems is pevent them. The next best way is to be so in tune with the machine that you feal something going wrong. The man I learned the most from about rebreathers was originaly a rebreather instructor in the military. He had retired and started working for one of the private companies. We hired him for two maybe three years. The first year he brought his Biomarine CCR 1000. It had no control electronics and he "Flew" it manually using the secondary electronics and his sense of what was happening, all the time performing timed runs with a hand held proton magnetomiter. I have never seen anyone more proffesional underwater. I asked him about scrubber failure and he told me he could feel the increase in CO2. I am sure there will be flames about that statement but I never forgot it. When I got my first rebreather I wanted to know how I would react to high CO2 levels so I devised a test and exicuted it with a diveing doctor freiend of mine standing by. I have repeated the test about 6-7 times now over the years and I feel I at least have half a chance of detecting high CO2 levels before they became a problem.
This is kind of a rambling post but to put my thoughts simply- To survive more than the ocasional dive a rebreather diver should have a comprehensive knowlage of thier units design, workings, and capibilities as well as a lot of respect and a little fear of how it may try to kill him.
Cheers Jim

[GentDiver]

This is kind of a rambling post but to put my thoughts simply- To survive more than the ocasional dive a rebreather diver should have a comprehensive knowlage of thier units design, workings, and capibilities as well as a lot of respect and a little fear of how it may try to kill him.
Cheers Jim

Thanks for the info. I think that is great advice and some that can be applied to not only rebreathers, but other aspects of diving as well.

Scott

:lam:

[peterbj7]

To survive more than the ocasional dive a rebreather diver should have a comprehensive knowlage of thier units design, workings, and capibilities as well as a lot of respect and a little fear of how it may try to kill him.

Which is why a reputable agency like IANTD specifies that instructors should not certify a student on a particular CCR unless that person either owns or has almost unrestricted access to a machine. They regard currency on the machine as critical to safety.

And of course, for those not familiar with the process, each different model of CCR has its own training course, which is not transferable to a different model. A revised model where there are any electronics changes or any other significant changes counts as a different model.

[Walter]

And of course, for those not familiar with the process, each different model of CCR has its own training course, which is not transferable to a different model. A revised model where there are any electronics changes or any other significant changes counts as a different model.

Until that problem is fixed, I can't see this:

I feel that within my lifetime, rebreathers will account for half the dives done in the world.

taking place.

[peterbj7]

And of course, for those not familiar with the process, each different model of CCR has its own training course, which is not transferable to a different model. A revised model where there are any electronics changes or any other significant changes counts as a different model.

Until that problem is fixed, I can't see this:

I feel that within my lifetime, rebreathers will account for half the dives done in the world.

taking place.

I don't really agree, Walter. Many rebreathers are pretty similar in their essentials, so once trained on one CCR the extra to dive a different one is, although essential, not particularly onerous. You could apply similar logic to dive computers and deduce that their use will never take off.

Tim - what do you think?

Edited by peterbj7, 23 November 2004 - 06:12 PM.

[maninthesea]

Tim - what do you think?

Was that Tim or Jim? Well what Jim thinks is-

Walter is correct, if a new cert card needs to be issued everytime an upgrade is made to the unit then the market share will grow very slowly. However I don't think that is the case in the real world. I know what I have seen happen with mfr's and training agencies and even if no one wants to admit it there are rebreathers shipped to customers that did not have training on that particular unit and their are certs given without any inwater training, to accomplished rebreather divers so they will be able to buy units. The factual reality is the certs are there to limit liability and keep a reputation. Any class is only as good as the student.
However I also think that Peter is correct in saying we will be seeing more and more rebreathers in the future. This year DEMA was more of a rebreather show than a dive show.

Jim

[webhead]

I don't really agree, Walter. Many rebreathers are pretty similar in their essentials, so once trained on one CCR the extra to dive a different one is, although essential, not particularly onerous. You could apply similar logic to dive computers and deduce that their use will never take off.

Tim - what do you think?

It is true that a new c-card is needed for each unit as well as each level - air, normoxic trimix and hypoxic trimix - on current rebreathers. In fact, if you upgrade your Inspiration CCR to the new electronics that are suppose to be available this year (???), I was told you need to get retrained on the changes. Is this just a way to keep money flowing to the builders and the instructors to support the industry? Or is it required by the insurance companies of the builders to CYA? Or is there that much difference that to be truly safe, this is what is required?

Having been trained on 4 different rebreathers, I can understand some of the reasons to get the training specific to the unit. I feel that maybe 10% of the class is unit specific. But I can say that after learning the 2nd unit, learning the 3rd and 4th unit went much faster. Once you learn the basics and seeing a couple different approaches, the next modern unit is not that different. So with today's units and training, I think Walter is right. But compare it to open circuit. There are many regs and BC's and new technology being offered every year. We don't go take another class and get a new c-card for each piece of gear (e.g. weight belts vs. integrated weights). Look at all the dive computers out there. Arguably, that is a piece of life support equipment that if used improperly could get you bent or worse. Yet a basic understanding of what it is suppose to do and how it is done from the owner's manual and maybe a test dive in a swimming pool is most people need to be safe.

So what do I think the future will be like? Imagine a scuba shop that has not only BCs, regs and masks but also counter lungs, CCR computers and scrubber units. And the diver will have the option to put together a rebreather from off the shelf products and then also be able to get sodalime/sorb, O2 and Helium fills and everything else to support his/her dive. And with 50% of the divers using this equipment compared to the 5% or less today (not sure of the real figure), the revenue will be there to make the price affordable for all and standards in place that most manufactures will follow to make switching between units easier.

And if anyone wants to see another lengthy message from me, just ask me what I think is wrong in the rebreather industry.... ;-)

Tim

[Walter]

Tim,

What do you think is wrong with the rebreather industry?

[mike]

Hi Gang,

I was asked by Marvel to put my two cents in, but I will keep it short.

Ive been diving CCR for over 6 years, owned and Inspiration for 3 1/2 years and a Meg about 2 years. I have also dove a Cis Lunar, Dolphin, MK15 rebuild, Prism, KISS and a few others. I have also recently been to schools on the MK 16, LAR V, Divex Stealth, and torn down a Viper E, Viper SC, etc.

I cant say I had a good experience on the Inspiration, hence it was sold. My Meg has been great with a few growing pains that I had a bit of input on. Leon is always interested in improvements and the unit is always evolving.

I have enjoyed my dives on the KISS and Prism and would dive those any day as well. Ive had some of these very deep, in the 300 and 400 fsw range.

Many of the other breathers are cost prohibitive and/or for military sales only (some over $50,000)

I think the key is knowing the rig and knowing the bailout procedures and above all, paying very close attention to the unit. I now dive the rig manual and use the electronics as a backup, ie I stay ahead of the solenoid using the O2 bypass valve, a Tom Mount method. I have actually had a rig that was malfunctioning and did not know it because this is the way I dive.

Any questions I will be glad to answer.

Regards, Mike

[webhead]

Tim,

What do you think is wrong with the rebreather industry?

Since you asked.... This is my opinion and we all know about opinions.... everyone's entitled to one.

The first thing that I think needs fixing is the whole liability problem. Innovation and development are not happening because everyone is hiding behind the insurance companies. I know of one large technical training agency that will not or would not offer CCR training in the States (but they do it in other countries) because of legal liability. And look at the leaders in dive gear.... don't see any of them stepping up to build a unit. Yet when the BC with integrated weights was made, everyone had a BC out the next year. Similar to the start of Nitrox. One large agency wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot legal pad but now they are supporters of trimix diving.

I wonder if this is also the reason that a certain UK company has been promising a new CCR for over 3 years now. As of today, it is still not a shipping product even though they have had buyers for over 2 years. I remember at DEMA 2003, a distributor was accepting $1000 deposits to be put on the wait list for a CCR when they had no delivery date or final price. I know if I can get 50 people to give me $1000 each, I could even develop and produce a unit to be delivered "in the near future" for a price "yet to be set". Reminds me of the saying, "a fool and his money...."

This whole concept that one company makes a better unit than someone else but can't deliver is getting old. People can wait anywhere from 6 months to a year to get a unit. And go month to month having a company push back a date for a new feature or piece of gear. The 2 units I have been following have both said they would have box ABC with features XYZ and have not delivered yet. But the amazing thing is that even though these companies operate like "made in my garage" shops, there are still people who buy them and swear by them, and swear at them, including myself, even if I haven't bought anything in over 2 years.

The other problem I see is with the rants from everyone diving rebreathers. Just go to the Inspiration or Florida Tech Diver email aliases/newsgroup. Every time there is an rebreather accident, for weeks afterwards, nothing but emails back and forth about your box is a deathtrap and you're a moron for using it. How can you get people to learn CCRs when the people that use them all the time think they are unsafe and deadly. And until you can get to the point that it's as safe as walking on the moon, you'll never get the masses to accept it and the companies to develop it.

Today, units are too controversial, expensive and take too long to get. Companies give too many false promises. Instruction is too expensive and not consistent between instructors. And the divers don't do enough to clear the fog of doubt and danger for those trying to find a new and better way to dive.

Tim

[Sophia]

The first thing that I think needs fixing is the whole liability problem. Innovation and development are not happening because everyone is hiding behind the insurance companies.

Same thing killed the small plane industry. For both planes and rebreathers, the equipment is expected to eliminate operator error. I really hope it doesn't do the same thing to rebreathers.