90 replies to this topic

[bigblueplanet]

Peter,

You are entitled to your opinion. You are mistaken on several accounts. The arguement is not worth having in detail. I have been busy and do not have the time to go point by 21 points with you on your concerns. I will say that The Topaz can be turned off and manually flown in closed circuit mode and it is not a bailout situation. Semi closed is not a normal operation of a closed ciruit rebreather. It is a bailout mode of how to salvage some time if the unit takes a dump.

I am not going to publicly bash agencies or heads of agencies or individual instructors. if you feel good teaching and selling Inspirations you are entitled to continue the practice. Go right ahead. Fine by me. I have chosen not to touch it with a ten foot poll.

Much of your information and "corrections" are not the case. But, I will say we can agree to disagree.

There are agencies that are the problem, there are instructors that are the problem and manufacturers themselves that are the problem. I know of many cases of people being offered IT ratings on units after finishing their user course. Again, we can agree to disagree.

Navy data is available and the performance of units are not equal. Topaz did not fail the performance requirements. Program was canned.

Inspiration data can be seen and it was not tested by the navy for navy use. It was tested on NOAA's behalf. Needless to say, you will not be likely to see a federal government agency using Inspriations any time soon.

Kevin completed CE testing. I suggest you talk to him before you speak for him. He is very clear on what was required for the CE with no conditions. Speak with him about the performance of his unit versus the Inspiration. Miles apart. They both carry the mark, they did not meet the same performance standards.

Again, we can disagree.

So, as you seem to believe that I have fabricated my post. I would suggest your info and what you report as "corrections" is simply you doing what you accuse me of. So, I will say, DO NOT BELIEVE ME OR HIM or anyone. Get as much information as you can and do your best to make an educated decision.

The posts are correct in that the industry has many problems. All are true. But, just because a unit is on the market does not mean it is a solid product. In spite of what is said. It will wash in the long run.

If it was easy to build a good and well performing unit there would be 15 different ones on the market. All very well desgined and working well. Companies have thrown huge amounts of money at rebreathers and not come out with functioning units. It seems simple, but it is not. Rebreathers are deceptively simple, yet not that easy to have perform well.

I was not going to put out my history on CCR, but everyone else seems to have. I have dived CCR since 92, have experience on many units. A good deal of hours on MK15, 15.5 and 16s. Oxygen units and several of the units that are out on the market and many that have come and gone, including some that never made it. Have dived them deep and shallow long and short duration. Again, it does not matter.

great wealth of info here and good posts. I will go back to what was said about rebreathers in 96 at the second forum. Anyone that claims to be an expert in rebreathers, is someone to be very careful of. Even today that fits. The technology has not arrived at a place for anyone to reach that level of competence. My friend Richard Pyle had an interesting discription of his evolution as a CCR diver. At 50 hours he felt pretty good about his experience. At 100 hours he really thought he had arrived. At 150 hours he realize what a big weenie he had been. Tons of hours on any unit or doing this does not equal knowing what is right. Just does not happen. My opinion and more than happy to have pther disagree.

I am not going to trun this forum into all the others. Left those for this very reason.

We can argue till we both believe what we did before we entered this post and not change a thing or agree to disagree. I am finished. Staying away from this topic. On to others.

G2

[WreckWench]

Gentleman...you've both done an outstanding job of expressing your opinions and beliefs for those of us who are knowledgeable as well for those of us who are not.

Grant makes an excellent point...our forum is different than most in that we don't flame...we don't rant....we don't argue...we don't get ugly. We do however allow for well thought out opinions and replies to be posted just as BOTH of you and others have done.

Thank you all for such great contributions to this thread. We are all learning from it greatly...especially me as I'm looking at rebreathers very seriously in my diving future!

[peterbj7]

BBP

Like you I don't have the time or the inclination to draw this out. You have been diving rebreathers way longer than I have and I respect your views and your observations, to a point. I agree the Inspiration is not ideal and there are better rebreathers out there, but equally I still don't think it's intrinsically dangerous. The fact is that there are many people out there doing many safe dives with it, and they are mostly well informed thoughtful people without a death wish.

What I saw of the one Prism I have had contact with gave me very mixed views - certainly it seemed a very neat and generally good design, but there were manufacturing aspects that I felt quite uncomfortable with, particularly the heat-welded T-pieces.

I said I didn't know of Kevin's intentions and that was a precise statement. I still believe it is in a completely different price league to the average recreational CCR, but perhaps you can correct me on that as well. I certainly wouldn't presume to speak "for" him - apart from anything else, I don't know him well enough.

So far as I am aware the tested performance results from US and certainly UK military procurement testing are not released to the public. But perhaps you have inside knowledge through your contacts in the industry, which are far more extensive than mine.

I certainly don't think you have "fabricated" your post, and I accept without question anything you say is non-controversial fact. I just disagreed with some of your conclusions and opinions, especially your opening gambit. And I know many generally satisifed Inspiration divers who also don't agree with your principal statement. Mind you, quite a few regard the Inspiration as a stepping stone to a different machine, not an end in itself, and many have modified their machines.

This thread has pretty well died now (maybe with all the Inspiration divers?) but I'm sure we'll find others to cross swords over! Safe diving.

Peter

[bigblueplanet]

I did not want to turn this into a sword fight about who was better or had more experience. The reason why I did not make that clear in the beginning. I did come across strongly and was very opinionated. It was my opinion and I own that.

The world at large is big enough for many units. My goal is not one unit over another. I just want many units that all dive well and live up to what was said about them. As I said, this is not easy designing rebreathers. If it were, there would be as many as regulators and all working as well as regulators work. Just not the case. I would say more failed units have come and gone than good solid working ones. So, there are major differences in what are out there and how each function and how well each works. So, those who are looking into CCR just have to do their homework.

I think all of this has pointed to one major flaw in the industry. An agreed upon performance standard for the operation of all units.

What I meant for testing was independent of the manufacturer by an independent testing lad that is reputable for its independence. Not the manufacturers brother in his basement. It is remarkable what some manufacturers call data. Seriously, talk to Kevin about his experience. He had not wanted to pay for it, but he did. Steam Machines does not want to pay for it either. Their DCIEM and USN data show it far exceeds the CE standard for performance. But, until the industry can agree what numbers matter and by whom, it is very much buyer beware.

I am sure you are lovely chap and we would get on very well in person. I had just been dealing with some very bad situations in my general area and I can tell you that the situation is not good everywhere. I am glad you have had good experiences.

I am moving to other topics as i can not seem to keep my opinions in check with this topic.

Cheers,

G2

[webhead]

The first thing that I think needs fixing is the whole liability problem. Innovation and development are not happening because everyone is hiding behind the insurance companies.

Same thing killed the small plane industry. For both planes and rebreathers, the equipment is expected to eliminate operator error. I really hope it doesn't do the same thing to rebreathers.

I hope diving and rebreathers don't go down that road. I'm also a pilot so I am aware of the cost and hassle added to general aviation due to safety and gov't requirements. The fact that parts for an experimental or homebuilt plane is 1/4 the cost of the certified version when it's the same product without all the fees for gov't testing......

The key difference between above and below the waterline is that pilots don't argue like divers do in regards to equipment and manufacturers. At least I haven't seen it. Which is weird. I always thought a flare resistant suit was more appropriate in aviation than diving underwater. ;-)

Tim

[peterbj7]

Same thing killed the small plane industry.

Actually, I thought the small plane industry was thriving. It did almost die, but suddenly seemed to experience a renaissance. Most are built in the US - was it a change in tax/fiscal policies?

[CaptainRonPdx]

Im really bummed that i came in to this so late, it was a great discussion. I will be the last guy to say im an expert in RB's, but i have played around a bit with them and know quite a few of the players.
Prism failed USN EDU testing, I spoke to the EDU directly, thats what they told me. They also said the navy canned thier search for a replacement for the Mk15.16 series.
That is not to say the prism is a bad unit, I tore one down and got a chance to dive with it.
Kevin Gurr's Ouroboros (pronounced A-rob a russ)has been submitted for CE testing and last i spoke with him is was mostly complete, this was about 3 months ago, so entirely possible its done now, the list price for the unit is about $12,000 usd. Extremely nice unit, I was at zero gravity for his presentation and show and tell of the unit and i was very impressed with the quality and design features of the unit. He sent me a white paper on his design criteria and i have published it on my web page along with the tear down and my own article about the unit.

there are over 4,000 inspirations out there in the world, they are the biggest and that makes them the biggest target. There are a few things about the unit that have convinced me not to buy one, but that doesnt make it a bad unit. I have several good friends who have them and have done many dives (one crazy feller down to over 540fsw) yes he is insane, but he was that way before he did that dive, cant blame the unit on that.

I have personally dived the dolphin SCR, a modified CCR dolphin, the Prism, the classic KISS, the sport KISS and just picked up my brand spanking new megalodon, which i thought was the best choice of everything out there, I voted with my wallet. My choices were based on my close proximity to the factory, the experience of the designer, the willingness of the company to allow me to come there and build my own unit under thier supervision and my opinion, from seeing most everything that there is out there, that the Meg is the best built unit on the market.

If any of you wish to see the teardowns and articles, you may find them on my website at www.tmishop.com. feel free to email me with any questions you have about the site or RB's in general. ron@tmishop.com

Rebreathers have come a long way since henry fleuss designed the first working RB in 1878, yes that was eighteen hundred and seventy eight, even before Cousteau, and they may still have a long way to go, but Im going diving, anyone want to come along?

[mike]

Ron,

Ive spent plenty of time at EDU. The Prism past the tests, but did not get accepted to the ANU list. The Navy continues it search for a MK 16 replacement. They are looking at the MK 16 MOD 2, the Viper E, the Divex Stealth among others.

Regards, Mike

[bigblueplanet]

Ron,

As Mike said the PRISM Invader, as it was called for the testing, did pass all of the tests in the testing protocal through third phase manned testing. I have spoken to several people at NEDU, the line is that it did not pass. That is a lie and as the civilians that were involved tell me is motived purly by politics and nothing else. I have seen the documents. There is nothing that was throw at it that it did not pass. In fact, the performance data outperformed the Mk16 significantly. Work of breathing was very low. They asked Peter how he managed to do it. It surprised them. But, the whole situation is now caught up in a giant bundle of politics.

The Meg may or may not be a good unit. There is no test data on it yet. I know several users that have had significant issues with theirs. It has some of the same problems of the Inspriation. Namely that the battery and CPUs are in the loop. Which probably will preclude it from even being tested by NEDU. But, we shall see. Leon has a user background, but this is the first unit he has attempt to design and build. The unit he dived for most of his experience was a CCR1000 that was modified by Innerspace into a Porpoise Pack One, PP1. The CCR1000 was the precursor to the Mk15. Breaths pretty poorly. Horrible to pack the scrubber on. Bitch to swim. Does have the analog secondary and pretty good scrubber desing for an anular axial scrubber.

I hope the Meg tests out well, we can use many well designed units out on the market. If this was easy, we would have as many models and brands as we do regulators. Clearly, there is far more to building a well performing unit than most would think.

Kevin's unit passed CE. His passed CE with no items below standard. Which the Inspriation did not in many areas. If you know Kevin or bump into him, ask him about that. It appears that you can get around the CE performance standards if you place a disclaimer to not do what causes it to not perform in the user manual. Kevin's recommendation is to sit down with the CE standard and the Inspiration manual and go point by point. You can see where the Inspriation did not make the mark by looking at the warnings.

The Prism will pass CE with no problem when they want to spend the 60K to do it. The data from the NEDU test shows performance far above those standards.

One day there will be true data for all units that we can compare side by side. Until then, it is anyone's guess who's numbers really mean what.

:dltears:

Grant Graves
CA

[Genesis]

I'm hoping the new Dive-Rite unit pans out.

If it does, its going to put the serious hurt on a lot of the curernt makers of these units. That much is without question. The price-point alone will attract many, and if it also performs, well, that'll be that.

I'm looking forward to it, to be honest. If it doesn't show up on time, I may build my own... I'm that kind of "roll your own" sort of guy.

Electronics are easy. What appears to be "hard" is getting the WOB reasonable under "real world" use, and designing for the potential failures.....

Edited by Genesis, 30 January 2005 - 06:58 PM.

[CaptainRonPdx]

Grant and list,
I can tell you the meg is an excellent unit, having built my own from scratch under ISC supervision, I know for a fact the quality control is very impressive. Wiring is trimmed to length by hand, examined under magnification, stripped carefully, crimped into molex pins, soldered and then clipped into the connectors, every part that is in the loop is cleaned, the batteries are in their own separate, 1 ATA boxes (double O ring sealed) and those boxes are in the loop where they will be warm and dry, with 4 o rings between them and water, the electronics are potted and yes, are in the loop, no problem there. The analog display you are praising is the most fraigle component of the Prism, I have seen one and i can tell you that if it hits the deck it will at the least be out of calibration and possibly DOC (dead on collision). The meg handsets have been driven over by a pickup truck with no damage other than cosmetic. Take a look around at the really serious divers, lots of Meg's in attendance from my seat. At zero gravity there were 9 megs, not a single prism and there would have been 11 if Tom and Patty Mount would have made it. I dont have any ax to grind against the prism, i think it is a fine unit, but i have also read the reports from EDU and it failed, something to do with off gassing of plastics in the loop. I have also looked up the ANU list and the invader is not there, if it passed, why is the navy not using it? ( i can provide you the link if you want it). The whole propaganda of Navy testing has been beat into the ground, you can have the NEDU test your drysuit underwear if you want and have the money to pay, that doesnt mean the Navy has to use it, even if it passes. I dont know all the politics involved, and really dont care about them either, I just get tired of folks preaching about Navy Testing like its the end all. The Navy's dive mission and mine are very different, what is important to the navy may or may not be important to me. What is important to me is that I can call Leon up and he answers the phone and answers my questions and he personally trained me on the unit I bought and am very proud to dive. when it was time to step up to the plate and drop my hard earned bucks on t
he table, I voted for ISC and the Megalodon. Try going to tennesee and building your own prism. : )

[Genesis]

Here's something I don't understand about all the RBs out there...

What's the deal with the delivery delays?

And, I might add, people demanding deposits to build 'em.

Now its one thing to put a deposit down with Ford, GM, etc - for a car. They're not exactly going away. Plus, you're still buying one in 10,000 or more.

But none of these companies have that kind of track record. Not even a DiveRite.

A huge consideration for me, as a potential buyer, is availability "off the rack." Why? Not just the issue of potentially getting hosed - but more importantly, parts access. If you can't build me one for six months, what if a hoozit breaks and I need a new one - do I wait six months?

That's simply not acceptable.

I'm quite seriously in the market for one of these things, but I refuse to spend the kind of coin they cost without some reasonable expectation that I can get the unit when I plunk down the money, and I will be able to get parts for the forseeable future. If a setpoint controller was to go TU on most of these, and the orginal company was either slow to get you a new one or simply went out of business, you'd be 100% screwed.

This is one of the major attractions of the DR unit. AP is the other obvious choice, but there are things about that unit I'm not all that keen on, and even they have issues. A dive buddy of mine has an Inspiration and its currently back getting some kind of retrofit and maintenance work done on it - its been gone for several weeks at this point. I find that kind of thing purely unacceptable for a device that I have that sort of investment in.

The other units may have other advantages, but if I can't get parts immediately then I'm down for however long it takes, and I've just spent somewhere around $10k on a brick.

Edited by Genesis, 30 January 2005 - 10:44 PM.

[Sophia]

I've got a question for the hard-core rebreather guys.

(Just for background, I have a Dolphin, which I consider a rebreather-ette, that I might convert to a full bore (CCR) rebreather down the line)

When I was first thinking about getting a rebreather, I stumbled on the Rebreather section at the other website. I noticed a lot of "Brand X is best, because Brands Y and Z and 'deathtraps'." What do they mean precisely? I know the Japanese had a rebreather which was great there, but too small for those(i.e. Americans and Europeans) with greater lung capacity. I understand that. I understand that people have forgotten to turn on Oxygen. That I chalk up to stupidity, and not having the monitoring equipment. What is it that causes the "deathtrap" label? The electronics frequently fail? No back-ups? What?

Speaking of monitoring equipment. I've seen people dive a Dolphin without it. To me, that's like diving OC and guessing how much air you have left.

Also, I wonder how many people have decided to wait another decade to get a rebreather because of the arguments? I wasn't scared off because A) I'm an engineer and I understood the Dolphin before I bought it, and B) the Dolphin seemed, if not idiot-proof, at least Susan-while-drunk-proof.

[Genesis]

I'm not a hard-core rebreather guy - yet.

However, those kinds of comments, made without the specific allegations to back it up, sound like "My Chevy is better than your Ford" games to me.

I've heard it too - from some of the manufacturer employees of units mentioned in this thread. None of them, of course, point out the specifics regarding what they're unhappy about.

[CaptainRonPdx]

Most of the "my RB is better than your RB" stuff is a load of crap. Many of the folks preaching this have not even dived the units they harp about. I have had my hands on most of the units available out there and there really is not a death trap out there. The vast majority of RB "failures" are failures of the protoplasmic control system. The RB is only as smart at the person diving it. The so called garage builders cannot possibly compete with a real production facility. I have been to the place where Meg's are built, also the Jetsam faciltiy where the KISS RB's are manufactured and neither of these places are "garage" type facilities. Unless you have several million dollars of machine tools in your garage.

I believe we are entering the golden age of rebreather diving, the selection, quality and price of the units available is stunning. I know what goes into the building of these units and to be able to get your hands on one for under 10k is amazing.

both the KISS and Meg units are running about 30-45 days out for production, neither of these manufacturers will ask you for money up front to build your unit, pay when you get shipped, or show up to get it. There may be a delay to find an instructor with time to train you. At ISC, I have seen emails come in with parts requests, and they went out the same day, customer service is even more important there, as ISC is now a ISO 9000 compliant company.

Now if we can only keep the lawyers away.