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Wetsuits vs. Drysuits


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#61 bluedolphin

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 07:11 AM

Anyone else care to add their opinions on drysuits? They'd be most welcome! :o



My advice would be to wait until you are fully certified (you may be by now, but I haven't kept up) and have some dives under your belt before you invest in a dry suit (given the expense).

I believe lots of people get caught up in the hype of scuba diving and go out and buy top of the line stuff then they find it is not for them.

Always being the voice of practicality, I would humbly suggest you be 100% sure you’re gonna love it as much as we all do before you spend a bundle on gear.
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#62 Diverbrian

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 07:32 AM

Anna,

To add to your confusion, I have two Andy's drysuits. They both figure to see use.

The first is my first drysuit buy. I didn't know that I was going to be diving dry as much as I do now. I just knew that wind going through wet neoprene in my wetsuit got awful chilly.

It is a tri-lam and it is simply too light of a material for every weekend diving over a couple of years in the forty degree water of the Great Lakes. It sprouts pin-hole leaks and I have semi-retired it. It will become a tropical drysuit when I get around to flying to dive destinations again. The light material is an advantage for this use as the replacement would use a bunch of my weight allowance on the airline.

The replacement that I use all of the time now is Cordura and nearly as tough as the crushed neoprene that DUI sells. Flexibility on it is great and it has a front zip with mounted hip pockets to get stuff away from the front of my rig. But, as I said before, the cordura is quite a bit more heavy than the lighter tri-lam.

My take on neoprene is that I did try a foam neoprene drysuit. It was too floatly and I despised it. I love the crushed neoprene (my favorite drysuit), but it is a $1000 or more than my Cordura. OUCH!!!

I don't use the drysuit itself to stay warm. For that reason, I have a set of Bare fleece undies that I wear underneath my Andy's 200 g thinsulate. I have tried the 400 g thinsulate undies but that for the price of another set of undies when my current ones work, I will stick with what I am doing. I have heard the Weezle undies recommended by many of my fellow divers as well.

I would see about diving rental DS's or going to a manufacturer's demo (like DUI Dog Day's) before investing in a suit for yourself. You will figure out what features are important to you more quickly that way.
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#63 freedivers

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 08:00 AM

Cliff,

Your detailed post was most informative! :o

But of course, I do have a few more questions. :D

The impression I'm getting from posts by ScubaDadMiami, Nicolle, and Michelle is that different fabrics have different benefits and drawbacks too, I suppose.

For example, your cordura is durable, but is it flexible (for wear and travel packing)? (SDM's latest drysuit only has cordura on certain spots of the suit that take more abuse than others; the knees for example.)

Nicolle's trilam is compact but according to Michelle, not as warm as neophrene.

Michelle's neophrene is warmer than trilam, but if you're layering undergarments underneath it anyway, is warmth in the drysuit itself really a consideration?

As for undergarments, what are you wearing?

Nicolle recommends Weezle undergarments, and Michelle was planning on buying thinsulate. According to CoquiDiver (sp?), thinsulate keeps its thermal qualities even when wet.

What I especially liked about your suit, Cliff, is that it has a front zip. I'd prefer not to need anyone helping me into my suit, although I'd be diving with a group anyway, so there'd always be someone around. (Nonetheless, I'm notoriously independent and self-reliant, and would prefer to keep it that way! :wakawaka:)

Anyone else care to add their opinions on drysuits? They'd be most welcome! :)

The Cordura in my opinion :D is the best of both worlds - durable and flexible. The suit I did get originally was designed for the recovery divers of the sunken Russian submarine Kursk in the Barents Sea (read - very cold and rough seas) in 2000. Also try and determine how much diving you plan on doing - I plan on diving quite a bit and don't want to worry about wearing my suit out in a year or 2. I know someone who has put over 1000 dives on his Cortex and it still doesn't leak.

The reason some companies only use tougher fabric in wear areas is to reduce manufacturing costs and speed production. The Cordura is not easy to sew together, but it s VERY durable. Trade off is that the suit is a little lighter and maybe a tad more flexible - but I think it is a moot point compared to the durability factor.

Neoprene is warmer - until it is crushed paper thin due to increased pressure from depth (read Boyles Law on that one). You lose insulative properties of neoprene at greater depth. It can keep you warmer if you have a leak in shallower dives, so that is one of the pro's of owning one.

A shell fabric suit has virtually no insulative properties - wearing the undergarments is what provides that. You can dive pre made Dive Thermals under a shell suit, or like me, I have expedition grade thermal undergarments from Patagonia I use when camping, etc... I also can use my Patagonia Polarfleece coveralls and zip tee that I have used underneath my waders when winter flyfishing (that has been replaced with diving) :)

Any true syntethic thermal undergarments will insulate when wet - some better than others. the choice is whether you want a unisuit or 2 piece setup. Also, Polar fleece socks will make or break your comfort while diving, since the feet are part of the extremities that will get cold first if not adequately protected. Also, you can have more than one set of thermals, dependent on the dive conditions so that you can fine tune your warmth factor which is a nice pro for diving a shell suit.

Yes, a self donning zip is nice and like you - I am independent even when diving with a group :birthday: Just make sure you use the zip lube that comes with your suit.

HTH,
Cliff Etzel
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#64 Trimix2dive

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 08:26 AM

Not have read this thread, my apologizes. But to jump in blind, newbies take a class yes it $50 and there is a lot of fluff and BS involved in it. But there is a lot of good useful information too on venting, weighting, and the like.

I haven't worn a dry suit in almost 10 year, just bought one to extend my diving season. I'm going to take a long weekend to tryout and relearn the dry suit diving experience of a decade ago.


Wet suits 65-68 degrees and above. Anything below that for long exposures is not my cup of tea. Max. wet suit is 5mm, I hate 7mm.

#65 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 11:15 AM

Cliff,

Your detailed post was most informative! :dontthinkso:

But of course, I do have a few more questions. :birthday:

The impression I'm getting from posts by ScubaDadMiami, Nicolle, and Michelle is that different fabrics have different benefits and drawbacks too, I suppose.

For example, your cordura is durable, but is it flexible (for wear and travel packing)? (SDM's latest drysuit only has cordura on certain spots of the suit that take more abuse than others; the knees for example.)

Nicolle's trilam is compact but according to Michelle, not as warm as neophrene.

Michelle's neophrene is warmer than trilam, but if you're layering undergarments underneath it anyway, is warmth in the drysuit itself really a consideration?

As for undergarments, what are you wearing?

Nicolle recommends Weezle undergarments, and Michelle was planning on buying thinsulate. According to CoquiDiver (sp?), thinsulate keeps its thermal qualities even when wet.

What I especially liked about your suit, Cliff, is that it has a front zip. I'd prefer not to need anyone helping me into my suit, although I'd be diving with a group anyway, so there'd always be someone around. (Nonetheless, I'm notoriously independent and self-reliant, and would prefer to keep it that way! :dance:)

Anyone else care to add their opinions on drysuits? They'd be most welcome! :dance:

Lots of good points raised.

The most flexlible material out of the main categories is: trilam. It has no stretch, but if you have a properly cut suit, you don't need it to stretch. You just need it to fit well and allow you to move freely. A properly cut trilam will do this.

Adding a layer of cordura on top of this material will not affect flexibility except for in certain places like shoulders, elbow and knees. So, I made sure to add cordura to my suit without adding it to the inside of my shoulders, elbows and knees.

The lightest material: trilam.

The thinnest material: trilam.

The material that takes the least time to dry: trilam.

The most durable material: most would say cordura; some would say neoprene. The least durable when exposed to wrecks, etc.: trilam.

Neoprene does have the most stretch, and it is still pretty flexible. However, it is the heaviest material, the one that takes the longest time to dry, and the one that takes up the most bulk for packing and traveling. Picture putting a heavy, thick, wet drysuit into your suitcase for the return trip home from your travel, because that is what you will be doing for a long time to come.

Looking at all of these factors, I go with trilam, and then I cover points of the suit that could have durability issues with cordura (and crushed neoprene on top of this for the knees). Now, I have a flexible, light, fast drying, unbulky and durable suit.

Insulation: I would NOT make this a factor at all in the selection of the suit material. You can more than compensate for the slight insulation that neoprene gives you by wearing proper underwear. Don't confuse yourself by adding the suit material to the insulation question.

For undergarments, Thinsulate is the only material (that I know of for diving) that retains 80 percent of its thermal retention capacity when wet. (Other materials are adequate until you get a suit flood, which will happen some day. Then, they are pretty much worthless.) You can get a lighter set for warmer water diving, and then you can get a heavier set for colder water diving. Just make sure that you suit it cut to allow for the use of both.

Yes, you should also be considering suits that allow you to self-don and doff. It is a tremendous convenience factor, and keeps you from becoming dependent on someone else.

I did take a chance when I bought my suit by not ever going to a demo day, etc. But, this might answer a lot of questions for you if there is such a thing going on near where you live. We can talk this to death, but actually wearing and using a suit will answer all of the questions. Taking a class can be very helpful in learning how to use a suit, too.
"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein

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#66 David Evans

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 11:30 AM

Good summaries here.

I own both a crushed neoprene and a trilam suit.

The neoprene suit, to me, is MUCH warmer than the trilam... I have to wear a much thicker undergarment with the trilam to approach the same warmth that the crushed neoprene affords me. But that's just me.

At the same time, the neoprene suit takes FOREVER to dry, is bulky, and is a horrible suit for traveling. I wouldn't travel with my neoprene suit unless I were going somewhere REALLY cold. It's just too big and bulky. But since the majority of dives I do are out of the back of my car here locally, I prefer to dive the crushed neoprene.

I keep the trilam for travel and for backup.

I think the neoprene is also a tougher suit than the trilam (as has been mentioned), but the trilam is easier to repair than the neoprene... so it's a bit of a trade-off (and unless you're really cramming yourself into some tight holes on a wreck, you shouldn't be developing holes in your suit anyway).

One last thought: I would only buy a compressed neoprene or crushed neoprene suit of the neoprene options... I wouldn't buy a "normal" neoprene suit. I think the buoyancy characteristics of regular (uncompressed) neoprene are undesireable and they also have a pretty big change in their insulating properties at depth.

JMO,

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#67 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 12:05 PM

. . . unless you're really cramming yourself into some tight holes on a wreck . . . .

:dontthinkso:
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#68 Diverbrian

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 12:14 PM

Good summaries here.


I think the neoprene is also a tougher suit than the trilam (as has been mentioned), but the trilam is easier to repair than the neoprene... so it's a bit of a trade-off (and unless you're really cramming yourself into some tight holes on a wreck, you shouldn't be developing holes in your suit anyway).

Wait a minute, I might resemble that remark... :dontthinkso:
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#69 cmt489

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 02:00 PM

I also would have gotten a trilam over compressed neophrene had this option been available in a women's suit (especially custom). Right now Bare is only offering women's trilams in Europe, including custom. The rationalle behind this, from what I understand, is that Europeans will simply pay more for their dive gear than we are generally willing to in North America.

#70 peterbj7

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 05:53 PM

Haven't read all this thread, but I'm totally with David's last post. Crushed neoprene for local or car-based diving, trilam if you have to travel much. Oceanic in the UK (a different company to the US one, but obviously related) do a very good range of stretchy trilam suits that are supposedly exceptionally comfortable. I don't know how durable they are, but I believe pretty good. For less bulky suits you also want to consider the basic Viking suit - very confortable and durable without being too bulky.

The most important thing with a drysuit, other than learning to dive it safely, is to have one that fits you properly. Even if you buy off-the-shelf or used, get to a decent suit manufacturer who can tailor it to your exact measurements. I've seen too many people have problems resulting directly from an ill-fitting suit. Length of leg and size of boot are critical. My first and to date only chamber ride resulted from losing it in a drysuit whose legs were too long.

#71 annasea

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 08:55 PM

A huge :D to everyone that posted responses to my drysuit questions!

I registered today for my OW course next month which will include drysuit training. (I know some people feel that newbies have enough to learn without drysuit training, but there is NO WAY I can get into 55F water WITHOUT something warm on! :D)

Of course, I will do quite a few dives to ensure that I really enjoy diving before I purchase one, but assuming I will like diving, I'd like to start preparing early and thoroughly for such an important and expensive purchase. (I better like this diving thing -- my course cost enough! :P)

As I plan on following ScubaDadMiami's and Kamala's advice regarding the benefits of diving dry, even in Florida, I'm leaning towards SDM's suggestion of getting a trilam suit with cordura reinforcement. The neoprene may have a nicer price, but as I'll travel with my suit, weight IS a major factor. As well, for diving at home, I have a teeny, tiny bachelor apartment, so having a drysuit hanging around for an extended period of time drying, isn't something I'm looking forward to.

Fortunately for me, Vancouver has lots of dive shops to choose from, so I'm sure I'll have plenty of options in terms of renting drysuits in order to determine what will work best as a purchased suit.

And once again ...

:thankyou:

Your suggestions and experiences are most appreciated!! :)










#72 cmt489

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:03 PM

Caetllonn - awesome to hear that you have signed up for your OW course!!! :birthday: :birthday:

Where are you going to be taking it? I agree, the drysuit training is a must, even if you are just starting out. While it is one more thing to "think about" at least you will be able ot think while you are under water. I recall doing my dives in a wetsuit and, quite frankly, I was too cold to think at all. I had absolutely no enjoyment and it does qualify as one of the most miserable experiences of my life. If you are warm at least you will be able to experience the awe of actually being under water instead of only worrying about when you are going to be able to get out of the water!

Have fun! You will love it!

#73 annasea

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:30 PM

Caetllonn - awesome to hear that you have signed up for your OW course!!!  :birthday:  :birthday:

Where are you going to be taking it?  I agree, the drysuit training is a must, even if you are just starting out.  While it is one more thing to "think about" at least you will be able ot think while you are under water.  I recall doing my dives in a wetsuit and, quite frankly, I was too cold to think at all.  I had absolutely no enjoyment and it does qualify as one of the most miserable experiences of my life.  If you are warm at least you will be able to experience the awe of actually being under water instead of only worrying about when you are going to be able to get out of the water!

Have fun!  You will love it!

I'll be taking it with Great Pacific Diving in North Van starting... (eek!) next Saturday! :lmao:

So needless to say, I'll be busily reading through and completing the in-book quizzes in my PADI textbook before then. We're only in the classroom for the first wknd so all of the reading has to be completed before then.

So while you're sunning yourself and having a rip-roaring time in Grenada, I will be sitting obediently in a private classroom in the dive shop owner's house with other eager beavers and then off to a private pool in the same location. :( (Mind you, it could be worse ... the pool at Britannia perhaps? :lmao:)

Edited by annasea, 26 August 2005 - 12:45 PM.











#74 Scott

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 04:52 PM

FANTASTIC!!!

Congratulations on taking the step! Now I just need toget you down here to take you on your Advanced Certification dives! I usually take my students to he Keys to do that, but sometimes we go to West Palm Beach.

In any case, you will have a great time diving. Take your time and just relax when you are in the water are the best bits of advice I can offer...it is a breeze!
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#75 ScubaPunk

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 08:50 PM

Ok Annasea...I can't stand the suspense any longer. Do we have a C card yet?

SP




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