112 replies to this topic

[drdiver]

Annasea, that is EXCELLENT. I don't want to create any more animosity here than already exists. That is a common sense suggestion that I would whole heartedly endorse. Some people don't want to say anything, but there are things that need to be fixed. Good idea!!!

[annasea]

Annasea, that is EXCELLENT.  I don't want to create any more animosity here than already exists.  That is a common sense suggestion that I would whole heartedly endorse.  Some people don't want to say anything, but there are things that need to be fixed.  Good idea!!!

Why drdiver, I do believe you've just surpassed Walter as my favourite SD (over the age of 40 that is! )

Seriously, I'm glad as a non-diver I could still contribute something.

Edited by annasea, 05 June 2005 - 07:10 PM.

[drdiver]

I do believe you've just surpassed Walter as my favourite SD (over the age of 40 that is! tongue.gif)

Seriously, I'm glad as a non-diver I could still contribute something. biggrin.gif

Nay, nay, Lass, Walter is das UberMensch. I will not attempt to challenge his inimitable perspicacity. We now have the Walter Bell and Whistle Snorkel (Mark 2) in production, BTW. I just want people to come clean on their complaints--be a man or a woman! Say what you think! Don't gossip.

[TheSassyRabbit]

Dennis -

Nice post. I think constructive ideas are just what Kamala needs at this point. Providing vague, 2nd or 3rd hand hearsay wouldn't be fair, so I too would invite folks who have a first hand issue to provide suggestions. Some generic background if needed, but not the gory details folks. That level of detail is probably best handled with Kamala before anyone else (and in my opinion, most respectful). At a minimum, if she asks you what your concern is, be honest with her. I think that I can fairly say that Kamala listens to feedback - no matter how difficult or disheartening it may be to her.

I was at Seaspace this weekend and did not hear any of the things that you did re: SD being in trouble, so without the source, it's difficult to know how to respond to that.

In the spirit of the post, I will add my thoughts; however, I will preface them with the fact that I personally had conversations about all of these things with Kamala this weekend or prior, so nothing that I have posted will be a surprise to her when she reads it. It's my style to be direct (I know that those of you that know me find that hard to believe.....). I think she, like all of us, likes and respects hearing the feedback personally before reading it in a rough post.

As I have not been on a SD trip, I don't feel comfortable adding info. about the trips themselves; however, I do agree that a cancellation policy should be posted - even if in small print - in every official trip post. That would cut down on some of the feelings of inequity around refunds.

I also agree that checks should be posted in a reasonable timeframe. I had an issue with this myself and it can become quite frustrating when balancing the checkbook.

If an action is promised "xyz will be done in the next two days", it should be done. A member should not have to check and recheck on the action. This quickly creates an environment of mistrust. This is even true for contests - if contests have an end date, they should be awarded and posted within a reasonable timeframe.

This is a volunteer organization. All do some (even by just by posting periodically); and some do A LOT. For the some that do A LOT, there needs to be some reward or privilege for them as ultimately their work (and sometimes money and talent) are being spent on a business for which they are not receiving a paycheck.

Perhaps there should temporarily be fewer trip options and each trip given more focus in terms of planning, info. provided etc. until there are more people who can lead trips.

I suggest that someone is qualified to handle the business when Kamala is not in town (so that new members don't have to wait for days for their membership status to be updated, etc.)

Maybe there should be some qualified "show" leaders that go to the different trade shows (their expenses paid for) and a supporting cast of SD's to help out so that Kamala isn't stretched too thin by going to all of them.

In the end, as I've mentioned in other posts, I have a lot of respect for Kamala, Walter, Marvel and others who do the obvious work for the board and do it daily. There are some growing pains in this organization, and I know from personal conversations that Kamala acknowledges the realities of the board, and posts like this one. At the terrible risk of speaking on her behalf, Kamala is concerned about what members think, knows she is at risk of losing valuable members, knows she has more than one person's worth of work to handle, and knows that focus is needed in some critical areas. So definitely help her out by letting her know CONSTRUCTIVELY what you think would be helpful. Then, once you've done that, consider giving her a chance to respond, and giving her a reasonable amount of time to proactively take some action. One action may be that she simply outlines what steps will be taken and in what timeframe, but please consider acknowledging even the baby steps.

Just a few thoughts from someone who has also expressed concerns. My motto continues to be: Mistakes do not make you a failure. Not learning from and responding differently to the same situations in the future is failure.

K

[Genesis]

My 2psi....

1. This is a business. Kamala has made that very clear. Ok, if that's the case, then I expect this to be run like a business if I'm going to patronize it. Specifically, this means:

a. If I buy something, I get a receipt showing what I purchased and how much it cost. If that was a deposit, the amount still outstanding is shown, and when I pay that off, I get a "paid in full" receipt in reply. These go out the day the payments are processed.

b. Payments are deposited the business day they are received, or at the latest, the next business day. Every bank worthy of the name on the door has a night drop. I ran a company for 10 years and this was part of the routine - you stopped at the bank and in go the day's receipts, if any.

c. There is one "head" of a company. If there are others who are being compensated, they're employees, not friends. If you have a beef, there can be a chain of command BUT the buck has to stop at one place and that person has to be responsible, 24x7, for what's going on and what everyone under that person is doing. No ifs, ands or buts. If one of your "friends" is not doing what they should, its your problem (as the head.) Again, speaking from running a company that had over 10,000 retail customers on subscriptions for a decade, my phone rang non-stop when there were problems and if one of my people did something wrong, I got to fix it - RIGHT NOW. It did not matter if I was on my HONEYMOON (and I was once!) - if that phone rings and its a real issue, you stop whatever the heck you're doing and you TAKE CARE OF IT. Period. It was also my responsibility to insure that policies were set and followed, whether by customers or staff. Cluster-fubar's are always the head-honcho's responsibility right now - end of discussion, full stop, that's that. A business is not government-by-committee. Its a dictatorship (hopefully benevolant, but still, a dictatorship.) Deal or move on.

d. If you announce a thing for which you will collect money, you have a SET SCHEDULE on which things WILL HAPPEN. A big part of why I did not come to the Memorial Day thing was that this expectation was not met. I had other things possibly going on, and you either give me a hard schedule with deliverables and expectations or you lose - this is a business transaction, not a "heh let's do some diving together" type of deal. Tell me what I'm getting, when I'm getting it, what the rules are for getting it (including but not limited to how much money you want) and get it out there in plenty of time to coordinate and confirm. Then stick to it. If you can't make that happen, you don't belong in business. This particular event was missing every one of those requirements, and I bailed when it became clear that there was no way for me to even know if I was welcome or not!

e. Marketing is a big part of every business. I'm not gonig to pay to be on the board in a way that is meaningful if it is your marketing tool. I know you like the membership Kamala, but I think this is a serious mistake on your part. De-featuring the board for people who haven't paid just to be here is removing one of your marketing tools. Do it if you wish (its your place) but I don't think you're helping your cause here, especially when PMs are "off" for non-payers. That means that anything that someone has a question on ends up in public rather than being handled in private - this is often counter-productive.

That's as to the business end of this.

Now, on to the TRIP end of this.

1. Exactly WHAT IS Kamala once the trip is booked and done? A coordinator and businessperson? Ok - she stays dry. Sorry. You can't do both jobs at once. I suspect this is not acceptable though, so.....

1a. If not a businessperson, then a participant. If this is the case then the brouhaha about her choice as to where, when, and how she dives is simply not anyone else's concern. It might be of concern between her and the dive operator, just as it is with anyone else on the boat (if there's a boat at issue), because the captain of the vessel sets the rules. Those rules, by the way, have to be the same for everyone on board. No exceptions - remember, Kamala in this instance is a participant during the actual diving, not a facilitator. In other words, the businesswoman hat comes off when the boat is boarded and is left on the dock. But if this is the case then this must be clearly disclosed - all problems must be handled BEFORE you embark for the day/week/whatever!

1b. If that's not ok in some cases, then someone is going to have to be "facilitator." Look folks, let's face it. Diving is a hazardous activity. Its entirely possible for any of us to end up in a chamber or worse, and if someone does, the rest of us still have a right to expect all of the services and products we contracted for, save those which are interrupted of necessity by the injury the person sustains (e.g. the boat may have to return to a dock to offload a bent diver, but that doesn't mean the REST OF THE WEEK should be blown!) This must be true no matter who gets bent/hurt. This may mean that there simply must be a "second in command' who is never in the water at the same time as Kamala, and who has full authority (legally and otherwise!) if something happens. Folks, this is basic business sense and its something we ALL have a right to expect.

As far as "keeping it all quiet", forgetaboutit. Ain't gonna happen. Own your problems, don't be afraid of them being discussed in public, solve them. Period.

You will not please all of the people all of the time - that's not possible. But you can have a solid set of principles you adhere to, follow them 100% of the time, and tell everyone what they are in advance.

That is not only reasonable, that's necessary for any business.

My 2psi, FWIW.

[drdiver]

Thank you for that comment, Genesis. I am sure all here will digest it for what it is worth.

[drdiver]

That was my 1000 post, sorry that it had to be on such a dismal topic.

Things have just gone to h***. Oh well,

"pour me something tall and strong"

"make it a hurricane before I go insane"

It's 5 o'clock somewhere."

Really loved all you people on here.

[annasea]

Really loved all you people on here.

Dennis,

This remark of yours sounds disturbingly past tense. I certainly hope you decide to stay!

I haven't been here very long, and this may be the worst situation this board has been in, but surely we're all adults here and can move past the negativity that has been present this past week or so.

Perhaps it is time for some people to move on, but I for one hope you are not one of them.

Most sincerely,
Caetllonn

Edited by annasea, 05 June 2005 - 08:59 PM.

[drdiver]

AnnaSea, thank you very much for your thoughts.

My actions are predicated very much on what I have seen a family member go through.

I cannot share them with you out of respect for their privacy.

I can say, with no doubt in my heart, he is one of the great men of our age.

An age that does not accept greatness.

I have the utmost respect for Marvel and Walter on this board.

But Leadership and Integrity begin at the Top.

Those concepts are inviolate.

You can make mistakes, but you have to acknowledge them.

I have heard and seen much and will say no more.

[scubafanatic]

well, folks I knew the fur was flying on my way to Sea Space, but had no idea that the cat was almost naked when I got there. Sea Space was and is always a great event of me--especially this year because I got to see my brother and got word that he was getting out of the hospital after 2 months. My brother is truly a great man (and I do not exagerate in any way in this). So I thank the Lord for that and pray he stays healthy in the future.

But I actually heard from people I know in the industry outside our organization that we were having problems. and that's not good, folks. Not good for future growth and not good for us. We are, after all, what makes this place what it is. I came back after 2 days gone and posting rate is WAY down.

------yeah, but I'll bet PM's and e-mails are --way-- up!

Now I'm new here, but I'm having fun and I think I'm gettting my money's worth. I'd hate to lose that and I think you would, too. But I also know how small the diving fraternity is and how fast rumors fly. I don't have any quarrels with anybody. I think Kamala has had a really rough week over this and I feel for her especially because it was her birthday.
(and no, I wouldn't give her my Mk 2. Walter Bell and Whistle Snorkel, but more on that later) She acknowledged she made a mistake on that dive--'nuff said for me. We ALL make mistakes from Course Director down to Newbie. We live and learn and we move on. You quit learning, you're dead, folks, at least from neck up.

I think all the people who have CONSTRUCTIVE ideas for improving the organization should post them here.

To start the ball rolling, I'll kick off.

1. I think everyone that buys anything from SingleDivers should get a receipt (trips, stickers, reg repair, etc.). Those receipts should be done in a manner consistent with good business practices.

----...not a bad idea, but one question would be would this involve more 'overhead' costs to board members?

2. There is a concern that trips paid for have not been booked--this needs to be addressed in a manner consistent with good dive travel industry practices.

----...I'm totally unaware of this being a problem....whoever believes this to be the case needs to step forward with concrete facts, not gossip.

3. Specific concerns in regard to trip management and practices need to be addressed (I"m leaving this intentionally vague because I heard varying stories from 3 different people about the Florida trip--I hope someone steps up to the plate on this and addresses these concerns, because I don't like to repeat things that I heard 2nd or 3rd hand--that's just gossip.)

----...are we being asked to comment on "varying stories"...."3rd hand" things...and "gossip"? ....I for one, don't have a lot of respect for members who won't 'go-all-the-way'.......if you're going to make an accusation in public, you need to present a defense / foundation for the accusation as well as well. The whispering campaign is cowardly at best...and at worst the 'whisperers' are accomplices in the 'wrongdoings' by not sharing their knowledge with the public.........are you shielding financial fraud and physical endangerment from those not in the loop? .......those are admittedly strong words, but bluntly speaking that's what's being implied here.

4. I think we should know what travel agency is handling our trips (if there is one) and who is handling our trips if it isn't a travel agency. I heard some very unsavory stories about this--I'm not repeating them, but I know they are flying around between members and this needs to be addressed.

----...again, more innuendo..... "unrepeatable unsavory stories" ?

5. I would like to see a general tightening up of the business practices of the organization. For one example, checks should be posted promptly. That's good for Kamala and good for us.

----...not a bad idea, I'll admit it took a while for my FG trip check to post, i was a little concerned maybe it got lost, but not something to make a federal case out of.


......I know this has become a very dark subject, and few of us want to see things implode, otherwise why would we all be here , so I'm eager to read the specific allegations and the propsed remedies......'victims' need to volunteer their solutions, share their wisdom / insight as to how to remedy the situation...if you were the trip leader, what would you do?

Karl

[drdiver]

It's as I said, people need to say what's on their minds--not let them fester and just leave.

As far as receipts--do it email, snailmail or in person--it's been standard business practice for at least 100 years.

I don't think it's a dark subject. It should be a very "Light" subject. Just let us know what's going on.

And as I've said repeatedly, I"m not interested in 2nd or 3rd hand comment, if you've got something to say--say it. That's the whole point of this post.

[annasea]

It's as I said, people need to say what's on their minds--not let them fester and just leave.

if you've got something to say--say it.  That's the whole point of this post.

While I agree with what you're saying, Dennis, might I slide a reminder in to those that may lose sight of what this thread is regarding?

Please remember that the purpose of this thread is to OFFER CONSTRUCTIVE IDEAS.

With that in mind, I found a quote from the SD Policies section:

"If you are angry, don't send the email until after you have cooled off and can read it again."

Although this was written with emails in mind, I believe it applies to posts in this or any other thread that has the potential to get as inflammatory and meandering as the 'Problem with Moderator' thread did.

I would hate to see it happen here as this thread was started in hopes of finding solutions -- not causing more problems -- be it for Kamala or anyone else.

[Genesis]

No disrespect Annasea, but how can you "cause more problems"?

I agree that posting rumor and innuendo doesn't do any good.

But - not posting what you know, when it bears on the issue, is even worse, because if there are problems they need to be aired and corrected.

And, I might add, if there are issues that have been intentionally concealed, that definitely needs to be brought out in the light.

Now, with that said, I don't have any rumor, innuendo, or facts to offer - only suggestions for how I think things should be. I can't even put a metric to what has been as to how the past - and present - measure up against that standard.

I do, however, know what I find acceptable when I deal with a business - and what I do not.

[hydrophilicity]

Okay, one suggestion I have is about local pick up trips. There seems to be some debate and maybe disconnect as to if this is a club or a business. Personally I think it is a business with come club aspects.

This is a buddy sight, and most of us are single (as in not maried but buddyless), and we don't always have the time to get away for a week or more at a time.

These local pick up trips would be great, sure they would not be "official" trips, but would go a long way to promoting the site if most everyone on the trip came from SingleDivers. My thought is these trips would be structured where each individual contacts the boat directly and books their own spot and arranges for their own lodging (or agrees to chip in and share a hotel room), there is no official leader just a bunch of divers going diving. Currently the posting of overnight trips is against the rules, and I will respect that decision, but think it should be looked at once again. That is how I got here 4 folks all from SingleDivers were on a boat I was on, my buddy was married/buddyless so I viewed this as an opportunity to meet other divers who were indeed single and had more availability. It is far easier for me to pick up for a weekend then it is for a week long trip.

It is no secret I like like Florida over NC diving so if there were a long weekend get together in Florida I would consider flying down and renting a car (maybe, depending on airfare rates of course)

There are other times when I would like a long trip and then I could join a SD trip in that timeframe, as traveling all over the world alone gets old.

If this is a club/buddy sight the above should not be a problem, but if it is a business it should be billed as such. Maybe since this is all still so new that is not yet quite defined in the business model.

Just my suggestion.


BlueD

I so absolutely agree with all of your thoughts here and it defines why I hesitantly participate in this group. I am very uncomfortable with the pages and pages of forum 'rules and regulations' , especially the fact that they seem to inhibit these local pick-up trips.

I think the business/ group trip organizing side of the community should perhaps be separate from the message board/ club end. The orgazined trips are great opportunities to travel and meet people and not have to dive and hang out topside buddyless. I don't see that the organization of private trips would impede that business. What if none of the trips fit into my schedule? What if then I want to say..."Hey....I'm thinking of going to Panama in November...Who wants to come with?" This would take advantage of the club aspect of the site.

I am here to meet divers and hopefully new friends. If I have to do so under such rigid rules, I am feeling that it drives me away from this community.

[annasea]

Don't worry -- no disrespect taken, Genesis!

back at ya!