191 replies to this topic

[Twinklez]

This reminds me of a scene in "It's a Wonderful Life" with Jimmy Stewert....

"Go ahead and kiss her......ah, Love is wasted on the youth!!!!"

Youth? At first I thought you were poking fun at me. Upon examing your profile for your birthdate (16 June 1915), I now understand - even my mom would seem young.

Ahhh ... but age is only a number, and with it, like a fine wine, we only get better. I hope!

and Kisses??? I want one! or two, or .... Never turn down a kiss! Well, almost never.

[Scott]

Hmm...I think I most miss having a woman around in several times and ways:

When I start a project that I end up dropping because I always start a new project, for one. My life is full of half completed projects whenever I am not involved in a relationship. I am always coming up with entrepenurial ideas and never seem to get them flowing without the stability of a good, independent, supportive gal to keep my mind on a task and limit my constantly emerging 'projects.' The women I have been seriously involved with almost all had the ability to put me back on a track...otherwise, with a few exceptions, I'm like a jumping bean from one project to another.

That and the times when one or the other is in need of something that only someone extremely special can offer...even if it is something simple like knowing just how to make you laugh in the worst scenario (or better yet, AT the worst scenario!)

Finally...hopelessly romantic, even more than sex I miss spooning and just being quiet with someone special and THAT is something that I wish for as regularly as food, diving and surfing!

[annasea]

Finally...hopelessly romantic, even more than sex I miss spooning

Spooning?!

Scott,

Now that you've put that out there, I reckon you'll be beating the SD babes off with a stick!

[sfret]

Scott has hit the nail on the head.

Sorry gals. I'm going to throw a spitball here. Behind most good successful men, there is a good woman urging him on.

Also, yes we guys are on a shorter sex cycle than you gals, but that doesn't mean we are without the romance (or spooning, as Scott calls it).

You may not like it, but one of the roles of women is to nurture. We guys can do it unnaturally (like when I raised my daughter as a single father), but it just isn't in our genetics. Thus, that's why gals need to own a rolling pin

Well put Scott. It probably won't fix things, but at least it was said. I guess we keep trying and try to keep the cynicism under wraps.

Anybody have anything LIGHT to add?

[Cold_H2O]

Sorry gals.  I'm going to throw a spitball here. Behind most good successful men, there is a good woman urging him on. 

I don't see this as a male thing.
I know that most of us gals are braver and willing to put ourselves out there more if we have the love and support of a great guy behind us. Encouraging us to be the best we can be.

We do form great friendships with our girl friends and they are also very helpful when we need that added support to motivate us along.

We all need/want to know that we have someone who will be there and support and encourage us.

Just my rambling thoughts this morning

Edited by gis_gal, 22 July 2005 - 05:56 AM.

[sfret]

Sorry gals.  I'm going to throw a spitball here. Behind most good successful men, there is a good woman urging him on. 

I don't see this as a male thing.
I know that most of us gals are braver and willing to put ourselves out there more if we have the love and support of a great guy behind us. Encouraging us to be the best we can be.

We all need/want to know that we have someone who will be there and support and encourage us.

I don't disagree. The big change is women have not been successful in the man's world (as a GROUP) except for the last 20 years or less. You didn't break the "glass ceiling" until just recently.

To me, that is the big change. The rolls of women have changed and forced the rolls of men to adapt. But, in young dating (I have noticed) girls STILL let the boy dominate, walk out front, etc. When they become men, the rolls change.

Oh well. It's too bad we don't DEPEND on each other (yes, I know how to seperate clothes, use different water temps, stack dishes properly in the machine, vacuum....I do it all). We are clashing against each other? Don't you think?

It sure would be great if, like a racecar team, we weren't all drivers. Somebody has to be the pit boss (women), mechanic, etc. HEY, that's a great analogy!!!!

[Cold_H2O]

Let me clue you in a little..

We woman are still not breaking thru that glass ceiling.

There have been some small victories. but as a general rule. We are not, as a group, breaking anything but our butts trying to get what we have been told is achievable.

We are still payed less as a general rule and are over looked more often for promotions. While we have made some progress women in general are still considered less in the work place.

Most successful women I know are usually accused of being too aggressive or too manly. or just not womanly enough. And my favorite is being told that we are too tough and intimidating.

I have worked almost 20 years in a male dominated profession. I am a mechanical drafter/designer. While I am very good at what I do.. I am usually told that I am not good enough. And have watched men who are not as skilled as I am make more money and get better promotions. Still don't understand that one.

Sorry to highjack this thread but.. couldn't let this go by unchallanged. It really bothers me when men tell me that I am thru that glass ceiling. I am working in the trenches and know that the ceiling is firmly in place and has not been breached by the majority of us woman.

Edited by gis_gal, 22 July 2005 - 06:33 AM.

[David Evans]

There have been some small victories. but as a general rule. We are not, as a group, breaking anything but our butts trying to get what we have been told is achievable.

Continuing the hijack, with apologies:

I'm only relating my personal experiences here, so not suggesting that this is the norm for anyone else but me.

I'm 39 years old, and have been working in the computer/software business (the sales and marketing side) since I was 20. In those 19 years, I've had 10 managers. Of those 10, 7 were women, and only 3 were men. The teams that I've worked on have been pretty evenly divided in terms of male/female co-workers, and the payscales are largely standardized... meaning that people doing similar jobs get paid at the same salary grade, so my female colleagues get paid the same as I make.

I have observed that at the highest levels of my organizations, women are very rarely Senior or Executive Vice Presidents, and almost NEVER presidents or CEOs.

So I won't suggest that in my industry that the glass ceiling has been shattered, but I do think it's been raised (my managers have typically been either Senior Directors or Vice Presidents).

Again, I'm not saying it doesn't exists - only that in my particular line of work, which is software marketing, I've become quite accustomed to looking up the skirts of women in managerial roles on the corporate ladder.

-d

[cmt489]

Hmmm, and the thread hijacking continues...

Colleen is right, the statistics do not lie, although they may be skewed a little for reasons I will explain below.

Women are overlooked, especially in traditionally male dominated fields. David, I think what you have observed is fabulous but you also have to remember one thing - your profession is a relatively new one on the scale of professions and women had already started to make headway before it started. In other words, they likely had their foot in the door the moment it opened.

In more traditional fields such as engineering, lawyering, brokerage, etc., men still dominate. Of course, this is for several reasons. There is, of course, the old boys club who are more interested in and comfortable with working with men. They are scared of the unknown and women, quite frankly, are the unknown. Many of the old guys grew up with the only women in the office being their secretaries with whom they could boss around, blame and take other liberties with resulting in little or no recourse against them. Suddenly a woman is an equal? Not easily accepted.

Of course, there are biological issues that play as a factor as well. Women have to make career sacrifices to have children. Women also take on the traditional care giving roles with not only their children but other members of their family. Ultimately, by the time both a man and a woman have spent 20 years in the workforce, the man will likely have much more time logged on the job. Not higher quality time, just more time.

Alright, enough rant for now!

Michelle

[sfret]

You gals aren't wrong either (again I give credit where it is do). My point is that SOME women have made it through the ceiling. Take Hewlett Packard for instance (which I thought they were stupid to replace her recently).

The point is the relationship of women with the world has changed dramatically (Western Civilization women that is....to prevent arguement).

And this all is to point to THIS FORUM. Men and women don't seem to succeed as couples for the long term (divorce rate is much higher than success rate). I believe it is because the TWO roles have become VERY LESS dependent on EACH OTHER.

I'm a financial type. This is an anlytical view. The problems between men and women are much more complicated.

So, gals. What do we guys need to do better to keep yawl happy? Now, there's the ROOT topic. I can't seem to give, give-up, or otherwise change enough. Should I quit being ME?

Note: I filed for divorce. She told me that she just didn't feel she could make me happy in my endevours. Said sex wasn't the problem. She was introverted. Thus, I have NO idea what SHE wanted that I hadn't already given. We were debt free, romantic, etc. Confusing, huh? Even the judge couldn't figure it out.

Edited by sfret, 22 July 2005 - 11:54 AM.

[jextract]

OK, trying not to go off on a rant here. Really trying. HARD.

Having been a member of upper-middle management for many years now (and having busted my tail to get here), this is my experience. I'm not saying that this is Truth with a capital "T" but it is what I've seen.

1) Getting to the top is a highly competitive, often ruthless business. My experience is that, speaking in terms of populations not individuals, men's nature is more competitive than women's. Also, in my experience there have been a handful of women I've seen who can be competitive without being a bitch - if you can pull off the former your team will run through walls for you; if you are the latter ... well ... not so much. And by the way, I've seen quite a few men who are the latter as well.

2) Michelle's point about women taking time off for children is quite relevant. You can not in the real world expect to be out of the workforce for a while, sometimes years, and expect to step right back in where you were as if nothing happened.

3A) Businesses are logical animals. If you make it more expensive to hire and fire people you will get less hiring of those people in the first place. Look at what happened to the unemployment rate of people with physical challenges after the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act - it skyrocketed. Hiring a physically-challenged person suddenly meant expensive new accomodations, and businesses have politely said "no thank you." Look at what happens to the unemployment rate of people on the fringe every time they raise the minimum wage - it increases, reducing available work opportunities for those people; some jobs are only worth minimum wage, if it cost more than that the work would go undone. Passing such misguided things as the Family Leave Act that increases the cost on businesses of hiring and investing in women will result in less hiring and investing in women. Want to reduce opportunities for minorities? Make "equal employment opportunity" laws more stringent - as it becomes more expensive to hire and fire minorities you'll get less hiring. I'm not attaching any morality to this one way or the other, I'm just telling you the way it is in hiring meetings everywhere I've been.

3B) Related to this is Affirmative Action - I want the best doctor, lawyer, tax accountant, etc. I can find. My doctor's job is to keep me as healthy as possible, my lawyer and tax accountant need to keep me out of jail and with the money I earned still in my pocket. In choosing them, this means, in part, that they earned their way into a good school on their own. Now the important thing here is perception. If there is a perception that women may be accepted to a school over "more qualified" men (and that is certainly open to debate, but we're talking about amorphous perceptions here) because they are "historically under-represented" then the stain of this perception of all women hurts every woman, even if that particular woman graduated at the top of her class.

Edited by jextract, 22 July 2005 - 11:58 AM.

[Warthog]

Sorry guys, I have to side with the women.

Although I'm not a fan of affirmative action (I believe the best person for the job should get the it). I've seen far too many 'good-ole-boys' clubs in my time.

My experience has been the women that do make it through the 'glass ceiling' do so usually with less pay and/or to keep the company out of a lawsuit. Thus, their promotion is undermined by the rumor mill stating she only got the job because she's a woman. Forgetting that the last three promotions went to lesser qualified men.

-Warthog *ducking the incomming flames*

Edited by Warthog, 22 July 2005 - 01:32 PM.

[Cold_H2O]

I'm 39 years old, and have been working in the computer/software business (the sales and marketing side) since I was 20.  In those 19 years, I've had 10 managers.  Of those 10, 7 were women, and only 3 were men.  The teams that I've worked on have been pretty evenly divided in terms of male/female co-workers, and the payscales are largely standardized...  meaning that people doing similar jobs get paid at the same salary grade, so my female colleagues get paid the same as I make.

I have observed that at the highest levels of my organizations, women are very rarely Senior or Executive Vice Presidents, and almost NEVER presidents or CEOs.

So I won't suggest that in my industry that the glass ceiling has been shattered, but I do think it's been raised (my managers have typically been either Senior Directors or Vice Presidents).

David,
I would agree you are in a unique field. I have found that I am seeing more women managers in my GIS career than I ever have as a drafter/designer. The ceiling in some careers has been moved up but again is still there. Woman are mostly in mid management jobs. With a limited few in upper management.

I think woman in general are making headway in the newer careers, but not all careers.

I have been given promotions not because the boss wants to give it to me but because they fear a lawsuit. When this has happened I have always been paid less and given less responsibility than the last person who held the job ( and yes, the last person was always a man) This is not a comfortable position to be put in.

Edited by gis_gal, 22 July 2005 - 01:43 PM.

[sfret]

Sure am enjoying this. Now, I don't feel like I'm the only one who has been passed up (once with the bosses appologies) because of some type of discrimination. I'll leave out the crueling details that a lawyer probably would have loved at the time.

Which means............time for all of us to increase the Happy Hours and lift each other up.

I'm trying to find somebody who has taken care of their financial life (like me) and is wanting to focus on making life more enjoyable (more trips, less "working for the man").

[jextract]

Of interest related to the recent hijack:
http://news.yahoo.co...ilharmonic_sued