97 replies to this topic

[Diverbrian]

Diverbrian:

I have given serious thought to crossing over agencies to give me better flexibility with my DC, but it hasn't happened yet and probably won't as the plain and simple fact is that the best training IN MY LOCAL AREA is through the place that I certified. I have seen too many divers from the other major agencies as taught by those instructors and to say that I am not impressed is an understatement.

Brian, the quality of the instructor's personal committment is as much or more involved in this equation then the agency. I have seen many poor instructors from ALL agencies including yours. Had I judged the agency on the instructor, then I'd have a poor opinion of all dive agencies.

Having said that...your agency will not allow you to do private instruction and my belief is that if you are a scuba instructor...then you should be a scuba instructor regardless of whether you teach via your shop or privately. Having the ablility to teach privately is very important flexibility as your diving career expands IMHO.

What I am referring to is the fact that that the local instructors that represent those two agencies are markedly inferior to the ones from the agency to the local instructors that I am with now. This is not related to the agencies themselves, just their local representatives, if you will.

Yes, the flexibility is nice. But taking a DM/instructor crossover in Detroit to find an instructor that I trust to teach me well isn't happening right now either. My current plan is to wait a couple of years and then take the instructor course through my current agency as they have the best instructor trainer in the area. Then, I will find somebody in another area willing to do my cross-over. As you know from private conversations, I already know which agency I wish to cross over to. The issue is finding an instructor trainer that I trust willing to take the time (when the time comes) to help me cross over.

Again, thanks for allowing the clarification opportunity. As I fully agree that I have seen poor instructors from all agencies and I have NO desire to be one of those instructors that everybody points fingers at when they refer to the sorry state of dive training.

[triggerfish]

whoaaaa...very heavy stuff. makes me embarrassed to be PADI -taught.

walter...thanks for "gue". i hadn't a clue.

as for the rest of you guys....you can only teach so much. you will never be able to teach common sense. i am positive that you are ALL excellent instructors, and your students are exceptionally well-taught. but, unfortunately, once they fly the nest......that's it. some will always be careful and learn from every dive they make. and some will be hazards that the rest of us avoid.

[Walter]

No one has mentioned that, as instructors for IDEA, PADI, PDIC, SSI or YMCA our "agreed standards" are the same and conform to ANSI Z86.3 as written by the RSTC (Recreational Scuba Training Council). Yes, Walter, as you know the agreed standards of PADI and YMCA are identical and have been since the mid-90s.

This is a common misconception.

There are vast differences between the standards of various agencies. The standards of YMCA and PADI are not close at all. If you'd like, I'll be happy to go into specifics tonight when I have the standards of both in front of me.

The fact that both of these agencies (and a few others) agreed to follow industry wide minimums (actually in 1986, not the mid '90's.) does not make their standards identical.

While they may both agree to a minimum standard such as "remove and replace SCUBA unit with assistance, if necessary" doesn't mean both have the same requirement. PADI's requirement is very similar to what I just quoted (maybe exact, but I am writing from memory and it's been several months since I looked at PADI's standards) I just quoted. OTOH, YMCA requires students to accomplish this task with no assistance. Further, YMCA requires a complete Doff & Don of all gear. PADI does not.

One example of the type of difference I can quote off the top of my head is YMCA requires every student to master a skill known as "bailout." PADI does not require this skill. This is merely one of many examples of differences in the standards of these two agencies.

You fell for PADI propaganda when you believed agency standards are identical.

I remember when scuba diving was a "man's sport" and it was the duty of the instructor to prove to his (never her) students that they were "not in shape enough" or "not smart enough" to be worthy to become scuba divers. I have done the push ups wearing full scuba gear and the two mile swims before I was deemed worthy to be taught how to use a mask, fins and snorkel. I have assisted with classes where the instructor said, "Thirty percent of you in this class will not become certified divers---I'll guarantee it."

Jim, there are still morons teaching that way. It was never part of any agency's standards. It was merely a lack of teaching skills. This attitude is often associated with a comprehensive approach to dive training by those wishing to discredit more complete courses. I know enough about what you teach to know that is not your intention. You take a more comprehensive approach, but you do it without the DI attitude. No one should be seeing who can accomplish certain skills and washing out the rest. Instead we should be teaching students how to master the skills. When we wash someone out, it doesn't mean they were incapable of performing the task. It means we were incapable of teaching the task.

All of us (agencies and instructors) have room for improvement.

I completely agree.

I think all students should receive extensive instruction and practice in snorkel and skin diving skills including snorkel mask clears and proper surface diving skills. And I think all students should receive some rescue training as part of their open water instruction.

Excellent!

On the other hand, demands of customers and the LDS often prescribes PADI as the program for the "two weekend" certification. (OK, you can refuse to teach this program and let the student go to a LDS who will teach them in the manner they demand--this is a separate discussion--They are going to be certified in spite of your wishes. The question you have to answer is whether you will remain aloof and "pick and choose" your students or operate within real world demands).

They won't be getting certified against my wishes. I think if someone wants a fast class that I consider inadequate, he has every right to it. OTOH, my integrity would never let me teach such a class. I don't pick and choose my students. They choose me. The vast majority want a fast class and don't care about quality. There are plenty of those classes available. I tell those people where to find what they want. Those who are looking for an education and are willing to devote more time to getting that education are the students who choose me. There's a difference, but if I taught the typical class, that difference would disappear.

The point here is, again, the certifying organization makes little difference.

Actually, this is more accurate in theory than in actual practice. A bad instructor will teach (or not teach) a poor course regardless of agency. An excellent instructor will teach an excellent course regardless of agency. This is because of what the individual brings to his classes. OTOH, the vast majority of instructors will teach exactly what his agency's standards require - no more, no less. Agency is far more important thayt most people believe.

Another point is you can't teach what you've never learned. Most instructors teach the way their agency's representative taught them to teach. Most never go beyond to learn new methods. Some agencies encourage their instructors to add to their courses. Other agencies discourage such practices.

I have enough on my plate trying to be the best instructor I know how to be for the students I teach

A great attitude!

[Marvel]

Altough I'm not a dive instructor , I've got a few comments to add to this topic if you guys don't mind. First, I have no experience with any certification agency other that PADI with the exception of knowing that TDI will certify in Nitrox without requiring dives. Surprised the heck out of me to learn that.
I think that if the guidelines are pretty much the same between agencies, as was stated, that the burden of good training does rest squarely on the shoulders of the instructors. And, let's face it guys, there a lot of instructors out there that should not be teaching for a variety of reasons. They may have become instructors so that they get to dive a lot, they may be burned out, they may have had inadequate preparation for their instructing careers. Many may just not have the personality that it takes to teach even though they want to. My OW instructor fell into that catagory but a co-worker of his accompanied me on my first dive after certification (Spiegel Grove) was extremely good at conveying information in a patient & knowledgable manner. Same thing for the PADI instructor that I did my Discover dive with.
A factor that seems to have also contributed to this "dumbing down" of certification is, as more than one of you mentioned, our culture's "I want it now" mentality.
Certainly I have experienced it while teaching people to play pool- a student comes to me to learn but when I assess their ability, I find that their basics are so poor that I cannot even begin to teach them position play. Sorry, you're just not capable of learning how to spin a ball 3 rails for positon if you can't execute a simple stopshot from a foot away or even have a proper bridge or stance! So, I've found that, despite doing my best to make it interesting, that many students will just drop out when I assign them drills to improve stroke, aim, etc. They just don't understand that a good foundation is the basis of all knowledge.
Having said that, I really don't have any solutions to offer except to encourage those instructors who do care to start closing their classes by explaining to their students that the certification that they just received is, as one poster said, a licence to learn & to suggest & encourage further practice on their own.
Actually- one suggestion would be to have LDS's hold ongoing free seminars on skills building. I'll bet, that if run well, it could be a revenue generater for the shop- after all, the students are going to have to get tanks & they're certainly going to be wandering around the shop & finding things they want to buy as well.
Just my 2 psi

[Walter]

makes me embarrassed to be PADI -taught.

It shouldn't. There are two possibilities. You had an excellent instructor or you didn't. If you had an excellent instructor, you got an excellent class. Nothing to embarrass you there. If you didn't have an excellent instructor, you probably got a pretty poor class. If that's the case, the blame falls on the instructor and agency, not on you. Nothing to be embarrassed about there either.

I think that if the guidelines are pretty much the same between agencies, as was stated, that the burden of good training does rest squarely on the shoulders of the instructors.

Ah, but they aren't. Far from it.

[drbill]

Agree with Walter- some agencies have real standards not unlike those we were certified with in ages past. Others don't, but you can still get great training if you are lucky to get one of the good instructors.

I've just decided (or been convinced by one of my buddies) to get Rescue Diver via PADI. I know it will be a good class because I am familiar with her instruction. Will probably go on to DM but only because the local boats need more DM's when they fill up, and it is always fun to dive other sites around the island (and get free air).

Dr. Bill

[triggerfish]

Rescue Diver via PADI.

i actually had an opportunity to use my rescue knowledge on 2 occasions...
the first, right after i got it....my girlfriend and i were on vacation with her kids/my nieces. for fun, i taught them all some basic tired diver tows, etc. a few weeks later, my friend's husband got sppoked in the water and started flailing...and she calmy swam out and towed him back using what i'd taught her.

the second was in grand cayman....a guy (drunk) was snorkelling offshore and got tired/disoriented/whatever and went down. i told someone to call the medics and myself and a couple guys went in and got the drunk guy, who, by this time was pretty blue. the medics were there and HAD NO CLUE AS TO HOW TO HOOK UP THEIR O2!!!!!! i just pulled it away from them and established an airway and luckily, the bozo started breathing. they took him to the hospital and i went back to my book.

[No Pressure]

So, Trigger. How was the book?
The real message here is that there are good and bad students/ instructors/ divers/ dive shops/ regulations. By good, I mean interested in learning, practicing and perfecting skills, striving to be the best they can be, constantly self-evaluating and pursuing additional information, looking out for others/ Bad means get things over quickly, show me the money, overlook basics, (because they are so basic, who needs them), and looking out for themselves. Like much else in the world, we can change our own behavior, and then maybe influence others. Those who don't want to improve, won't. Our choice is not to try to change them, but to choose not to dive with them. People often see only the bad side (see TV, papers, etc). We can provide a positive perspective and comparison for the sport.

[Diverbrian]

So, Trigger. How was the book?
The real message here is that there are good and bad students/ instructors/ divers/ dive shops/ regulations. By good, I mean interested in learning, practicing and perfecting skills, striving to be the best they can be, constantly self-evaluating and pursuing additional information, looking out for others/ Bad means get things over quickly, show me the money, overlook basics, (because they are so basic, who needs them), and looking out for themselves. Like much else in the world, we can change our own behavior, and then maybe influence others. Those who don't want to improve, won't. Our choice is not to try to change them, but to choose not to dive with them. People often see only the bad side (see TV, papers, etc). We can provide a positive perspective and comparison for the sport.

Amen to that, NP! Hopefully all of the SD.com divers will be of the "good" variety (I mean as divers. They can be "bad" in other areas as the situation requires ) and we can set THE good example on the dive boats, such the boats will bend over backwards in order to see us again.

[Diverbrian]

I remember when scuba diving was a "man's sport" and it was the duty of the instructor to prove to his (never her) students that they were "not in shape enough" or "not smart enough" to be worthy to become scuba divers. I have done the push ups wearing full scuba gear and the two mile swims before I was deemed worthy to be taught how to use a mask, fins and snorkel. I have assisted with classes where the instructor said, "Thirty percent of you in this class will not become certified divers---I'll guarantee it."

Jim, there are still morons teaching that way. It was never part of any agency's standards. It was merely a lack of teaching skills. This attitude is often associated with a comprehensive approach to dive training by those wishing to discredit more complete courses. I know enough about what you teach to know that is not your intention. You take a more comprehensive approach, but you do it without the DI attitude. No one should be seeing who can accomplish certain skills and washing out the rest. Instead we should be teaching students how to master the skills. When we wash someone out, it doesn't mean they were incapable of performing the task. It means we were incapable of teaching the task.

All of us (agencies and instructors) have room for improvement.

I completely agree.

A couple points for the instructors here.

I have seen students wash out. It was NOT the instructor that did it. It was the fact that they were in the class for the wrong reasons (How many have seen someone "try the class for their SO" when they were marginal swimmers and scared in the water?) or needed swimming instruction (which our instructors will send them to the local community center to get if they wish to continue the course, otherwise people uncomfortable in the pool drop out.

And yes, even the best standards and instructors out there could use improvement. That is the nature of this sport which we try to understand.

[drbill]

I think we could use some aspects of that "prove to me you're fit enough to be a diver" now. I sit at the dive park and watch people who are totally winded from landing on the dive stairs and walking up the steps! Then some of them stagger to their gear spot and light up a cigarette.

Imagine what they'd be doing if they had to dive Casino Point in the "old days" (sigh) when wed idn't have an easy entry/exit via stairs into the water and you had to climb down (and back up) the rocky breakwater.

I see people almost every dive who are not in good enough physical shape to be diving IMHO. Is it any wonder we see heart attacks in the dive park?

Now get down and give me 100 with full gear on (including fins)!

Dr. Bill

[Walter]

Bill,

Physical fitness is important and we should all be striving to improve or maintain our condition. OTOH, I'm not your personal trainer. There are no pushups in my class. If you are too winded to continue after the 300 yd swim, you might consider some conditioning.

Brian,

There's a big difference between an instructor washing out (by not teaching, just demanding performance and making things physically tough) students and students deciding not to continue for personal reasons. My goal is not to eliminate those who can't do a Doff & Don. My goal is to teach everyone the needed skills to do it easily. That's the attitude difference that needed to change years ago.

[triggerfish]

bravo, NP. well said. and the book was fine.

brian; i could not swim when i learned to dive. not a stroke. i was terrified of being in water over my head and the smell of a chlorinated pool STILL gives me flashbacks of my brothers "teaching leenie to swim". but i KNEW i'd be ok UNDER the water. i did a resort course in cancun to see if i'd like it; balanced on the end of the boat, gauges tucked, hand on reg, i thought to myself "what the F*** am i doing here...i can't swim!"....and did a giant stride into what would become my passion (yeah, ok, that was corny). it took me 3 years til i worked up the balls (can i say that walter?) to take an adult "afraid of water" swim class so that i could learn to dive. i had to go back to do the swim part, which i eventually did...on my back (no comments boys...i MEAN in the POOL!!). but i was right...it was totally different underwater. to see me underwater you would never have guessed the fear i had.

i don't know what my point was. sorry......

[Walter]

can i say that walter?

Well you could've said, "gumption," but then we'd all be wondering who was posting under your screen name.

[Diverbrian]

bravo, NP.  well said.  and the book was fine.

brian;  i could not swim when i learned to dive.  not a stroke.  i was terrified  of being in water over my head and the smell of a chlorinated pool STILL gives me flashbacks of my brothers "teaching leenie to swim".  but i KNEW i'd be ok UNDER the water.  i did a resort course in cancun to see if i'd like it; balanced on the end of the boat, gauges tucked, hand on reg, i thought to myself "what the F*** am i doing here...i can't swim!"....and did a giant stride into what would become my passion (yeah, ok, that was corny).  it took me 3 years til i worked up the balls  (can i say that walter?) to take an adult "afraid of water" swim class so that i could learn to dive.  i had to go back to do the swim part, which i eventually did...on my back (no comments boys...i MEAN in the POOL!!).  but i was right...it was totally different underwater.  to see me underwater you would never have guessed the fear i had.

i don't know what my point was.  sorry......

Congratulations TF,

You have stated the story of many of the better divers out of our shop and many of them are female. Many people actually work on their fear of the water/lack of swimming ability in order to learn to dive. These people turn out to be dedicated divers much of the time because they had to work that much harder to learn the art.

But, as an AI working with a class, I don't have time or training to teach someone how to swim. Swimming instructors (like one I had when I was six and afraid of deep water) are better at handling these issues. If we have a "nervous student" (normally a good surface swimmer somewhat afraid of scuba but wants to learn for their own reasons), that is where myself or an instructor earns their money (Yeah.... RIGHT!) and the pleasure of being involved with teaching a course. There are ways without pressuring students to help them become comfortable in the water and under it. At the end, the smile on a students face when they are cavorting around the pool at the end of the pool session's is my pay for the course.

Now, I am getting sappy, but I don't care.

Edited by Diverbrian, 04 May 2004 - 10:41 AM.