66 replies to this topic

[bigblueplanet]

Okay, let me clarify.

Yes, I was saying it is important to have good OW instruction. Also, PPB done well can be a huge benefit. PPB can help fix bad OW training as well.

Clearly, in the other hand with that, bad instruction will only hurt you. To assume all instructors will suck is just as bad as assuming all will be great. Unfortunately, in this day and age customers do have to talk with the instructor they plan to work with. They are all not created equal regardless of agency.

I just was working on another long post for the thread on agencies and quality of instruction, but my computer failed and it was lost.

Walter, weight pacement has a lot to do with trim. Just put ankle weights on and try to stay horizontal without moving. You are creating a huge lever. Even properly weighted and neutral you will create areas of rotation if you do not balance forces arounf the center of mass. It is always eaiser to maintain trim when moving because you generate lift as you move.

CT with where you are coming from I understand you believing that a flat position is required at all times. I would say in general that is true, but it depends on the needs of the dive. If you are swimming near the bottom, working position is the appropriate postion. Antisilting techniques and awareness of impact on that bottom at all times is critical and should be taught at OW level. But, a head up or vertical postion is not horrible if it is a conscious decision by the diver in mid water when there is no need to a horiznotal profile. The concept is that the diver is the active person in the dive. Their positioning is a decision on their part rather than what happens by accident.

The concept is what I have termed precision diving. The concept predates DIR, so we can forget about the obvious comparisons. It is not DIR. But, both concepts share commonalities. I am not DIR, nor am I associated with GUE.

The bottom line is that there is a great deal that goes into being good at buoyancy. How you get there is really not important as long as you get there. In a perfect world, you would be able to receive the training necessary to build the foundation of skills to allow for good experience building to be of benefit.

I am not trying to diminish the value of doing dives and gaining experience by diving. This is a milage game. It is all really about time in the water. My point was that re-enforcing bad habits by solidify them with a bunch of experience is not going to be of benefit. Go for the diving when you know you are working from a good foundation. That is all.

Believe me I am not all about the serious. Good humor is everything. I just do not know anyone well enough yet to take the piss out of anyone or to flirt.

Grant

[triggerfish]

flirt away big boy. you're safe here.

and brian...just what the hell is a dive con, anyway??

[Walter]

Grant,

If you put all your weight on your shoulders, but are negative instead of neutral, you will still that the attitude Erin described

Most divers wear far too much of their weight around their waist which tends to keep them leg down in the water ( picture their bodies at a 45 degree angle ).

You will put your feet down to kick up to compensate for being negatively buoyant.

Just put ankle weights on and try to stay horizontal without moving.

All you need to do is bend your knees and lean forward. OTOH, I have two points. First, ankles weights are a great invention for areobics. They have no place in diving. The other point is why would you want to remain motionless?

I agree with your points on positioning. Horizontal is usually the best position, but not always.

To assume all instructors will suck is just as bad as assuming all will be great.

It will be just as wrong, but not necessarily as bad. It rarely hurts to err on the side of caution. There are lots of good instructors, but they are in the miniority. While there are exceptions, agency affiliation often tells me a great deal about an instructor.

Triggerfish,

A Divecon is what SSI calls their Divemasters/Assistant Instructors.

Walter

[triggerfish]

thanks, walter.

btw...not everyone who seems to be drifting by at a 45 degree angle is overweighted. i will assume that position if i find my sinuses are acting up. yes, i know all about drag, etcetcetc...but sometimes i like to just hover upright, give my head a rest and watch the fishies go by.

[Diverbrian]

Walter,

I was always taught that horizontal is about the best position there is because like a skydiver it is easier to slow ascents/descents and always, the slower the better on those.

Why stay motionless? Because my IANTD instructor insists that you be able to hover on demand for at least three minutes to maintain deco without a line, LOL. Also, I burn less air when I am watching something interesting. I can add that if I can stay horizontal motionless and hover, I can do it moving as it easier when I am moving, so it is better skills practice.

I agree with Erin and Grant about trim. I am another person that feels where the weight is placed (it's distribution) is as important as how. But, I know that you have more experience than me in those issues.

Also, I am with Erin in that small towns don't offer much in the variety of instructors. Many times, a new diver is better off diving with more experienced buddies that pay attention only to them than an instructor shuttling students on and off a platform and not watching them thoughout the dive so that they can properly critique the form. Video is even better, but nobody in this local area will video students for class. The only classes that I know of that do that are GUE classes which I will likely never take.

Just my thoughts right now....

Adding on:

TF, I just saw your post and I agree. Many times when hovering I will take that type of attitude to give my neck a break and see what is going on!

Edited by Diverbrian, 08 May 2004 - 09:23 PM.

[Walter]

Why stay motionless? Because my IANTD instructor insists that you be able to hover on demand for at least three minutes to maintain deco without a line

You either have absolutely no current or you're live boating. It's extremely rare to have absolutely no current in the ocean. If you hover motionless, current will move you around. I'm rarely motionless while diving or while on a surface interval. Motionless isn't natural.

I was always taught that horizontal is about the best position there is because like a skydiver it is easier to slow ascents/descents and always, the slower the better on those.

"Always" is rarely correct. Sometimes, I tie the line to the wreck. I go head first. I exceed the recommended maximun descent rate. I get the wreck. Sometimes, I come up out of narrow holes in wrecks. Horizontal won't fit. Sometimes, I just wanna play. Upside down sometimes works for that. I'll usually be horizontal, but not always.

[Coo's Toe]

I think the ladies around here will soon have you flirting with the best of them Grant, it won't take long. We also tend to be pretty respectful of each other even when our opinions don't match 100%, so please don't think any of our present members are going to try to flame you like on other boards you might be familiar with. I think even in our most heated debates ( have we really had any yet? ) we were all still laughing and smiling throughout.

One thing about me you should be aware of, and I mention this because of the heat and bile surrounding DIR on several other internet sites, is that I see GUE as a tool to achieve better dive skills, not an entity to be worshipped, or the sacred cow from whence all knowledge springs like some of it's adherents that are quite vocal elsewhere do. I just want you to know that if we disagree on some topic in the future, my arguements will be based on logic and not on one particular agency's party line. GUE does not, IMHO, hold a monopoly on skills and training, even though I do feel they did a pretty good job with me so far. I just don't want to be percieved as one of the robot clones, or make you feel attacked because you're not one of the robot clones. I think if this board ever reaches the us vs. them mentality regarding the whole DIR thing that it has on other boards, that'll be the day I'm out the door. Skills are skills, regardless of where you pick them up, and were not invented by GUE, nor confined to GUE trained divers, yourself being a very good example of this fact.

That being said, there are no scuba police out there looking to arrest you for being vertical in the water. Even I have made concious decisions to swim up under power. Sometimes I do make a choice to be heads up while diving along a wall. But 99% of the time, the horizontal thing works best for me, whether I'm near a hard bottom or not.

I do agree that precision diving should be our goal, and that ultimately, the end result of good training will be that all our movements in the water will be concious decisions, not overreactions to circumstances we can't control. It does take time to achieve this level of comfort, but when we do, the fun level increases exponentially, and the panic/discomfort level becomes a thing of the past. We are prepared to overcome the difficulties nature or other divers sometimes throw our way, instead of letting them ruin our dive.

And yes, we do need to keep our wits and a healthy sense of humor about us, both here in the forums, and out there on the dive boats. At the end of the day we should be able to share a good laugh over good food, even after those dives where everything seemed to go wrong.

Maybe we scared off all the ladies by getting so serious in this thread... Hopefully they'll throw a little lighthearted humour into this otherwise serious discussion and save us from ourselves by flirting with us a bit. I'd hate to have everyone start thinking we are TOO serious. ( or too on topic! )

[Diverbrian]

I know what you mean. Many times as the saying goes, knowing the reasons for the rules gives you the ability to bend them. Many times, I will fly down the line. My "maximum descent" is limited by only two things:

1) My ears clearing (which happens much easier now)

2) My dive buddy

I am also know to poke my head into a porthole or two or do a swimthrough that is vertical. I said "always taught" and I also said "about" the best position. "About" leaves much leeway.

You are also correct about currents. The actual hovering may involve some serious kicking without a Jon Line and I normally see some pretty wicked surface currents in the Straits and Toby.

I was just making a point to the education as taught by the best anti-silting techniques out there. Horizontal is really cheating, LOL, because I hate trying to hover vertically. It always throws me off. Horizontal, OTOH, I can about go to sleep.

So, there is some agreement between us.

[Walter]

Very well thought out post, Erin!

Brian, I think there's more than "some agreement between us."

[triggerfish]

ok, erin, i'll take the bait....i'd hate to think of you guys starting to flirt with EACH OTHER rather than having a good, old-fashioned p*****g contest (how bout that, walter?? am i doing better??).

all this talk about positions...heads up, heads down.....
and me, alone on a saturday night ....

[bigblueplanet]

CT you hit the nail on the head. It is more work up front, but does make it all so much easier once the skills are mastered. What we do is totally diver dependent. So, my approach is to train the diver first and the skills will follow.

Point taking on DIR, just know in the past I had to defend against the attacks you mention. Glad to hear it. The reason I left most of the other boards and do not get involved any more.

Walter, I do hope you are playing devil's advocate and pulling some legs. Why hover motionless? Well, to observe wildlife with minimal movement to try to be able to observe them without them reacting to you. Shooting so I can line up a shot without contact with the bottom and not move to risk impact on visibility. To establish the optimum kit to maximize the efficency, so no extra work has to be performed beyond what is necessary. Everything should be optimized to require the least amount of thought and effort for the diver. There are tons of reasons to hover motionless. I do it all the time. no movement at all. Love crossing the legs and drifting on a drift dive with no movement other than that I cause by breathing. I have gone whole dives without even kicking or moving much at all except for ascent and descent.

It is zen, you should try it. The idea is that you only use energy to move through the water, not to maintain body position. If you are not true in a flat position you will have to use energy to compensate that, moving or not. It shows itself clearly when hovering motonless.

I was not saying that flat is the only way to be all the time. But, ascents happen in blue water without a line, you should train for the worse case. the bottom line is the position is not important as long as that position is dictated by the diver rather than their kit or be accident.

I understand that ankle weights are for special applications. I was not suggesting that you use them. If you take a diver that is trimmed and added the ankle weight and asked them to stay flat without moving they are not going to be able to do it. Regardless of proper weighting or neutral buoyancy.

Weight distribution creates rotation around the center of mass both in motion and especially at rest. It is about having a balanced kit. If the natural profile of the diver is not flat, whether they swim that way or not, they are expending the energy as if they were swimming less than flat to overcome the forces pulling them out of trim. At 64 lbs per cubic foot, that is a lot of extra energy I would prefer to reserve for better things. It impacts gas consumption, energy to perform and distance swam. It affects everything. I guess untill you master it, you just do not understand. LOL

That is the porblem, you just do not know till you know. Pointless to try to explain it. Easier to show it.

GUE is not the only courses that video. I do video analysis on all my courses where it is of benefit and possible, which are mainly PADI. FYI

Enough said. I think the point is made. Buoyancy matters. There is a great deal to it and there are lots of good ways to practice it.

So, what is up with all these hot chicks from Texas? Let's get all of them from all over the place on here. LOL No disrespect to the ladies from any where else of course.

Grant

[triggerfish]

HOT CHICKS IN TEXAS??????????

ahem, young man, there are HOT CHICKS ALL OVER!!!!!

hold me back boys...!

[Coo's Toe]

Triggerfish... Triggerfish... Triggerfish... what can I say? Sorry, as much as I respect Grant, I just don't see him as being my type. There's only room for one pink snorkel in my relationships, and I already have one! But I can't thank you enough for lightening up the atmosphere in this thread...

Grant, we'll have to keep up the p*****g ( hopefully that's not what it was )contest so TF doesn't start to get worried! LOL! I can't agree more with the Zen thing. Nothing scares the fish away like violent thrashing. Oh, and one more thing! Yes, there are some real cuties on this board from Texas, but don't overlook the cuties here that hail from your neck of the woods! TF said it best when she pointed out there's hot chicks hailing from all over. We are truly blessed!

If you are videotaping students in a PADI class, you are in the minority. But more power to you, video is a powerful tool for training divers. I think GUE is unique at this time because they video all their classes for later critique and feedback. But I think the other agencies won't take long to start doing this as standard practice, because it just makes too much sense.

[triggerfish]

hell, they videotape you when you take golf lessons. why not? i think it'd be a great addition. some people need to see a visual of what you're explaining to them (there's a name for that knid of learning, but it escapes me at the moment).

it woulda helped me...

and coo....i'm GLAD grant's not your type )

[scubahoney]

(Darth) Yes, there are some real cuties on this board from Texas

You hear that Diving Divas....CT thinks we're cute!