Walter,There's some misinformation here. While a BP/Wing is an excellent design, it's not the only such excellent design. Lots of good features folks attribute to a BP/Wing also apply to a vest. Some faults people attribute to a vest are not part of the vest design and not all vests have them. Those faults are starting to show up on BP/Wings as well.
To use Trace's list, for example:
Jacket BCD
It's not a jacket, it's a Vest BC
- fastex locks break easily
I don't know what a fastex lock is, but I've never had my BC break.
- usually has a loose fit
If you get the wrong size.
- tank position is often too low & diver can't reach valve (if you jump in with your air OFF you will want to reach the valve)
This is ridiculous. The diver positions the tank with either system at the height he desires.
- no crotch strap for secure fit, attachment points, or scooter ability
This is an advantage, IMHO. I hate crotch straps.
- too many superfluous attachment points
Some BCs are poorly designed.
- plastic attachment points can break
Buy one with stainless steel D rings.
- more drag
Not true. Most vests have added junk that creates drag, but recently so have some BP/Wings. You can still get either with minimal drag. The vest I use has as little drag as any BP/Wing.
- jacket lines are discontinued/replacement parts hard to find
I'm using the same design with which I started diving. It's not been discontinued, but has been around longer than the BP/Wing.
- poor hose routing features
Hoses can be routed identically with either.
- frontal bulkiness
BS
- gear hangs low when swimming increasing drag and entanglements
That's poor training and can happen with a BP/Wing as readily as with a vest.
- often requires excess weight
That's poor training and can happen with a BP/Wing as readily as with a vest.
- weight pouches slip/weight belts drop
I don't like weight integrated BCs either, but most folks still use a weight belt with a BP/Wing.
- limited diving potential
What the hell does that mean? I've never been limited in my diving with my vest.
- often floats up
Not if it fits properly. A poorly fitted BP/Wing will also ride up, not as far because the crotch strap will hold you up in it crushing anything in your crotch area in the process.
- poorer weight distribution (trim problems)
A properly trained diver is not dependent on equipment to hold him in proper trim. Divers are not inanimate objects.
- smaller pockets
BP/Wings don't usually have pockets at all, although they can be added. Larger pockets can also be added to vests, but larger pockets just hang down and add to drag.
- plastic pack can crack
Of course it can, but I've never had a problem nor even seen a problen with one.
- not modular
That depends on the design. I still use the original hardware on my first vest. I'm not on the original vest, that's been replaced twice.
Backplate & wing
- stainless steel buckles and attachments won't break easily
Stainless steel or plastic buckles can be used on either style.
- custom snug fit
True.
- adjustable for proper tank position
So is a vest.
- easily handles doubles, stages
So does my vest.
- crotch strap for secure fit, attachment points, scootering
This is a disadvantage IMHO.
- custom attach points
True.
- less drag
Not true.
- easy to replace, borrow, change wing sizes
True, but I've never needed that feature.
- attached weighting
Partially. Most still use weight belts.
- great hose routing
Hoses can be routed identically with either.
- no front bulkiness
Neither does a well designed vest.
- gear rides high and streamlined
So does a well designed vest.
- often no need for ditchable weight
Often I don't need any with my vest.
- unlimited diving potential
Same as a vest.
- won't float up
Not if it fits properly. A poorly fitted BP/Wing will also ride up, not as far because the crotch strap will hold you up in it crushing anything in your crotch area in the process.
- excellent weight distribution
A properly trained diver is not dependent on equipment to hold him in proper trim. Divers are not inanimate objects.
- larger pockets/detachable
BP/Wings don't usually have pockets at all, although they can be added. Larger pockets can also be added to vests, but larger pockets just hang down and add to drag.
- stainless steel pack won't crack
BP is available in plastic as well.
- completely modular system
So are some vests.bp/w is easier to travel with because it packs up smaller - none of the bulky cummerbun and stuff
The "bulky cummerbund and stuff" is not part of the design of a vest, but crap that has been added to some, but not all, recent vests and to some BP/Wings as well. I agree, that crap has no business on any BC. It's not part of my vest.the not having to get a new BC cuz you want to dive doubles is worth it's weight in gold
Another myth. A vest works quite well with doubles.AND not have to discard the entire system...OR pay for an entire NEW one
I merely replace the parts that wear out, just like with a BP/Wing.
A BP/Wing is a fine system. It may be right for you, but don't be mislead as to why.
While you're using one of the best "vest" designs it still fails in comparison to the uses of a backplate and wing system.
First, regarding plastic snaps produced by companies like Fastex, ITW Nexus, etc., they will break if something heavy is dropped on them. If a cylinder falls over, a weightbelt is dropped, a scooter is set on your BCD, etc., these small plastic buckles will break. Their tensil strength is also not that of a steel buckle so they are not to be trusted to stand up to the rigors of carrying heavy gear such as extra bottles. This is why any harness including those designed for use with a backplate that employ any plastic quick release buckles are not recomended for serious diving. Why risk having a vacation ruined, being inconvenienced due or even put at risk of injury or death to a small piece of plastic junk? One stainless steel waist buckle (which I'm sure you have on yours rather than plastic) is all you need to secure a harness. The ScubaPro BCD you prefer has several other small plastic buckles that can be broken.
Second, to get tight fit from a "vest" or any other jacket or ABS BCD system, one's body needs to be able to fill out the space in the harness or if the harness can be secured, just about every recreational BCD uses plastic buckles through which you pull the nylon webbing and for recreational diving it is not a big deal, but once you add weight like multiple bottles, secure yourself to a tow scooter and such, the harness system becomes a failure point. This is why any recreational BCD becomes a limiting factor in one's diving potential. Only a horsecollar BCD can be substituted for a wing when a very secure harness (read no real failure points) is required, but that would be silly for most diving, but have uses for military, SRT, and rescue divers expecting to be extracted by air.
Third, the majority of recreational BCDs place their packs way too low when actually worn. They may be centered in the back when on the rack, but when seen on most divers, the tanks are hanging way too low even if the band is near the top of the cylinder. Add to this the handles and straps that sit over the valve and it becomes difficult to adjust the height of a tank to the correct level on most recreational BCDs.
Fourth, crotch straps can be taken off backplates in seconds for those divers who hate them. The waist strap and the shoulder straps are enough for the security of most recreational divers, but are invaluable tools. The butt D-ring and the front crotch D-ring (you want metal not plastic) are ideal for carrying reels, scooter clips, and safe temporary attachment points that are away from regulator hoses and BCD hoses and won't clutter a diver's body when used temporarily.
Fifth, most recreational, tech wanna-be & even backplate & wing systems are poorly designed. That we agree upon, but the science of diving a certain backplate system (Hogarthian/DIR) is well tried and tested with the top divers in the world putting much thought into the uses of the system.
I'm not a big fan of many OMS and Dive Rite products because they try to enhance simplicity and they create many problems when trying to put their spin on Hogarthian. For sidemount and other applications, I trust other systems beyond Hogarthian. Recreational BCDs, tech-wanna-be BCD's and a couple BP/wings have way too many attachment points and are poorly designed.
There are many great BP/Wings out there from companies like Halcyon, OxyCheq, Dive Rite (classic wing), Kamala found one that she bought from Deep Sea Supply I can't wait to check out (I don't like the inflator hose on it but I'll see if that can't be remedied), Seatec (if you move the inflator valve), most divers mix and match BP's, harness colors, wings to suit their needs, but buying recreational and tech-wanna-be BCD's is like a huge crap shoot. Too many kinds, not enough research. The Hogarthian system is pretty well tried and tested.
Hose routing can be argued, but is more complex and often depends on carrying stages & scootering. Again, why BP/W's are superior to any other BCD because they have proven unlimited range while other BCDs do not.
What I mean by unlimited diving potential is that equipment like Halcyon is expedition ready right out of the box. You can assemble for a properly equipped and safe trimix/cave dive with multiple scooters, bottles, cameras, etc. in minutes.
It only took me 15 minutes to completely assemble a twin tank set up with everything brand new right out of the box, add the correct hose lengths, full light system, etc. and clear the area to stop interupting an Antonio Banderas movie because we were playing the radio too loudly while doing so. We also were looking for a DIN O-ring that popped out of my Zeagle Flathead VI at the time which slowed things down.
Your "BS" reply to my statement regarding frontal bulkiness... I'm looking at the current design of your BCD and I see lots of bulk compared to a tight fitting 2" nylon web harness. By the way, a "poorly fitted" harness can be fixed right away. An incorrectly sized vest cannot.
Excellent weight distribution of a BP/wing is only partially about a diver's trim as imagined by most recreational-minded divers. It's more about balancing the equipment which a BP/wing does exceptionally well. When I'm in Florida, I want to see you carry all my stuff balanced on your vest and secured as tightly to the body. I'm entering the water more than 30 pounds negative many times with all the gear being carried and it doesn't affect my balance my body position or my trim in any way.
Anyway, we're setting up a Florida Keys event that's really reaching for the sky in coolness so I'm sure we'll have a chance to prove our points
Trace
