40 replies to this topic

[6Gill]

Is it too soon to throw back entry vs. front entry into the mix?

Good God man what are you thinking bringing this up?

[captsteve]

Is it too soon to throw back entry vs. front entry into the mix?

Good God man what are you thinking bringing this up?

i am not even going to say it........ just gonna leave that alone..............

[Desert_Diver]

Talk to Kamala about her suit. I have a tri-lam, and I actually like hers better, as long as the water's over 60F. Hers looks like 5mil neoprene (not crushed, either) and it's held up pretty well, as much as she's used it. Hers was a HELL of a lot cheaper than my tri-lam plus underwear. In really cold water, I'd think you'd need something more, 'cos it doesn't look like she's gonna get a wooly bear on under it. Maybe a thin poly, but that won't add much insulation.

With WW's drysuit, it's effectively > 5mil protection even if you don't use the inflator hose. Dryer is warmer. With my tri-lam, it's worthless without the underwear and inflator. I'd freeze and the suit squeeze would strangle me. If my tri-lam floods, it's worthless. If WW's suit floods, it's a 5mm wetsuit. Just something to consider in the bewildering choices of drysuit. If you're planning on REALLY cold water, a crushed neoprene or tri-lam will probably handle extreme cold better than a 5mil neoprene with thin underwear. What's the lake temps you dive? I'd guess not below 60F or so, so either type is fine.

There's also some 5mil 'super-stretch' semi-dry suits that might suffice, depending on the temps that are giving you the chill right now. Less muss and fuss than a full drysuit, but not as much thermal protection. They have neoprene neck, wrist and ankle seals, so you can use 5mm booties with 'em.

I bought the drysuit book purely to get the differing points of view, and then spent a few hours playing in a deep pool getting used to it. I figure I can read as well as the next person, so there wasn't any need to have someone tell me what I'd already read, then test me on it for a frivolous 'certification'. The one lucky thing I did early on was drop my weight belt at about 60' on a dive where I was testing using the suit for ALL my buoyancy control. Good thing, 'cos all I needed to do was burp the neck seal to dump the air bubble, and I didn't have to fight with both suit AND a BC. The belt drop was accidental (I don't have enough hip to hold one up). I managed to keep the ascent rate low enough that my comp didn't even complain. Sheer luck. I now have a DUI weight harness that can't possibly fall off.

If you aren't gonna take a class, at least get the book. It's a good read, and will help you when the eventual problems occur. Practice going inverted a bunch, so you don't freak when it happens for real.

I swap wet for dry around 70F, as I'm a real wimp for cold.

I wear my drysuit rockboots for ALL diving. They're more comfortable & warmer than booties, just more time to don and doff. I have a slightly larger pair for the drysuit, smaller pair for 3mm neoprene socks and wetsuit. Bare, Bodyglove and Whites have nice neoprene socks, most of the rest suck (seams in all the wrong places for comfort). It works for me, YMMV.

I have a front-zip (more of a diagonal, shoulder to opposite hip) and it's easy enough to get in&out of without help. I don't have to trust someone on that 'last tug' to make sure the zipper's secure....

[captsteve]

Talk to Kamala about her suit. I have a tri-lam, and I actually like hers better, as long as the water's over 60F. Hers looks like 5mil neoprene (not crushed, either) and it's held up pretty well, as much as she's used it. Hers was a HELL of a lot cheaper than my tri-lam plus underwear. In really cold water, I'd think you'd need something more, 'cos it doesn't look like she's gonna get a wooly bear on under it. Maybe a thin poly, but that won't add much insulation.

With WW's drysuit, it's effectively > 5mil protection even if you don't use the inflator hose. Dryer is warmer. With my tri-lam, it's worthless without the underwear and inflator. I'd freeze and the suit squeeze would strangle me. If my tri-lam floods, it's worthless. If WW's suit floods, it's a 5mm wetsuit. Just something to consider in the bewildering choices of drysuit. If you're planning on REALLY cold water, a crushed neoprene or tri-lam will probably handle extreme cold better than a 5mil neoprene with thin underwear. What's the lake temps you dive? I'd guess not below 60F or so, so either type is fine.

There's also some 5mil 'super-stretch' semi-dry suits that might suffice, depending on the temps that are giving you the chill right now. Less muss and fuss than a full drysuit, but not as much thermal protection. They have neoprene neck, wrist and ankle seals, so you can use 5mm booties with 'em.

I bought the drysuit book purely to get the differing points of view, and then spent a few hours playing in a deep pool getting used to it. I figure I can read as well as the next person, so there wasn't any need to have someone tell me what I'd already read, then test me on it for a frivolous 'certification'. The one lucky thing I did early on was drop my weight belt at about 60' on a dive where I was testing using the suit for ALL my buoyancy control. Good thing, 'cos all I needed to do was burp the neck seal to dump the air bubble, and I didn't have to fight with both suit AND a BC. The belt drop was accidental (I don't have enough hip to hold one up). I managed to keep the ascent rate low enough that my comp didn't even complain. Sheer luck. I now have a DUI weight harness that can't possibly fall off.

If you aren't gonna take a class, at least get the book. It's a good read, and will help you when the eventual problems occur. Practice going inverted a bunch, so you don't freak when it happens for real.

I swap wet for dry around 70F, as I'm a real wimp for cold.

I wear my drysuit rockboots for ALL diving. They're more comfortable & warmer than booties, just more time to don and doff. I have a slightly larger pair for the drysuit, smaller pair for 3mm neoprene socks and wetsuit. Bare, Bodyglove and Whites have nice neoprene socks, most of the rest suck (seams in all the wrong places for comfort). It works for me, YMMV.

I have a front-zip (more of a diagonal, shoulder to opposite hip) and it's easy enough to get in&out of without help. I don't have to trust someone on that 'last tug' to make sure the zipper's secure....

hey man!

kamala has a 2mil crushed neo........anyway, great time in cozy...!....you really should do a trip to nc! i cant make the one july, but i will be joining the group for the fall trip........
oh.....the crushed neo really seems to be the deal.........she can hook up anyone interested

[gcbryan]

With WW's drysuit, it's effectively > 5mil protection even if you don't use the inflator hose. Dryer is warmer. With my tri-lam, it's worthless without the underwear and inflator. I'd freeze and the suit squeeze would strangle me. If my tri-lam floods, it's worthless.

Just to be accurate and to not confuse anyone without drysuit experience a tri-lam is not worthless if it floods. If you have no undergarment it's worthless either way but if it floods and you have the proper undergarments you will still remain warm.

Edited by gcbryan, 27 January 2006 - 11:25 PM.

[Brinybay]

My first dry suit was an O'Neil neoprene. These are at the low end of the price scale, but are good suits for the money. I did not take a dry suit orientation class, I just spent 10 miserable dives getting used to it. For moving through the water, they are not as streamlined as the form-fitting wet suit. That took a little getting used to. The other thing was what to wear under it. The O'Neil did not come with it's own undergarment as most suits do. The idiot at the LDS told me the neoprene would keep me warm and all I needed was t-shirt and shorts.

What a load of hooey. I nearly froze to death. I experimented with various undergarments. First was a farmer-john style pair of snow pants. They were so bulky and trapped so much air 50lbs of lead couldn't keep me down. I finally settled on expedition-weight REI long johns. I bought them a size too small so they would fit snug and not trap air. That worked well for the life of the suit.

I've since upgraded to a USIA shell suit. I changed to a shell suit because I did not want to deal with the changing buoancy and insulating factors of neoprene. I'm still using the original undergarment, but I also still wear the long johns under it and that seems to work well (the water here is rather chilly). I paid a few extra $ to get the heavy-duty boots on it. Some folk choose to save money by just getting the thin sock booties on it, and then wearing sneakers over those. I chose not to do that because all my shoes are slip-ons now, it's getting too difficult to bend over and tie my shoes these days.

You will use more weight one way or another. With the neoprene suit, I had to use ankle weights. I don't need them with my current suit because the material is less buoyant and I have the heavier boots.

Edited by Brinybay, 28 January 2006 - 10:25 AM.

[Brinybay]

Talk to Kamala about her suit.

She thinks it makes her look fat.

[gcbryan]

My first dry suit was an O'Neil neoprene. These are at the low end of the price scale, but are good suits for the money. I did not take a dry suit orientation class, I just spend 10 miserable dives getting used to it. For moving through the water, they are not as streamlined as the form-fitting wet suit. That took a little getting used to. The other thing was what to wear under it. The O'Neil did not come with it's own undergarment as most suits do. The idiot at the LDS told me the neoprene would keep me warm and all I needed was t-shirt and shorts.

What a load of hooey. I nearly froze to death. I experimented with various undergarments. First was a farmer-john style pair of snow pants. They were so bulky and trapped so much air 50lbs of lead couldn't keep me down. I finally settled on expedition-weight REI long johns. I bought them a size too small so they would fit snug and not trap air. That worked well for the life of the suit.

I've since upgraded to a USIA shell suit. I changed to a shell suit because I did not want to deal with the changing buoancy and insulating factors of neoprene. I'm still using the original undergarment, but I also still wear the long johns under it and that seems to work well (the water here is rather chilly). I paid a few extra $ to get the heavy-duty boots on it. Some folk choose to save money by just getting the thin sock booties on it, and then wearing sneakers over those. I chose not to do that because all my shoes are slip-ons now, it's getting too difficult to bend over and tie my shoes these days.

You will use more weight one way or another. With the neoprene suit, I had to use ankle weights. I don't need them with my current suit because the material is less buoyant and I have the heavier boots.

Your post reminds me of a few other factors not yet brought up. It's funny how many choices and factors there are with drysuits

Attached boots are easier to put on (one less step) however they tend to not be as tight fitting as separate boots. Going with the attached socks and then adding a tighter fitting boot can reduce the potential for an air bubble in your boots and can make your fins feel less sloppy. It's sometimes a little cleaner to pack your suit up after a shore dive and fold it up if the boots aren't attached.

There are advantages either way.

As Eric pointed out there are options for front entry or rear entry. Front entry means you can zip yourself up but this option is usually much more expensive. Rear entry requires a buddy to zip you up although some have figured out ways to do it without a buddy.

Edited by gcbryan, 28 January 2006 - 01:26 AM.

[ScubaDadMiami]

With my tri-lam, it's worthless without the underwear and inflator. I'd freeze and the suit squeeze would strangle me. If my tri-lam floods, it's worthless.

. . . I have a front-zip (more of a diagonal, shoulder to opposite hip) and it's easy enough to get in&out of without help. I don't have to trust someone on that 'last tug' to make sure the zipper's secure....

Regarding flooding, if you would use Thinsulate underwear, it retains 80 percent of its ability to keep you warm even when completely flooded. That's why it is more expensive than fleece and other thermals.

Good point about the front/diagonal zip. You don't have to depend upon someone else to help you get into, or out of, your suit.

Talk to Kamala about her suit.

She thinks it makes her look fat.

To me, nothing is sexier than a woman in neoprene . . . unless there is one wearing trilam.

[Diverbrian]

A couple of comments from one who is associated with a shop and knows their policies:

Our shop does not require a drysuit cert to buy a drysuit. They do require one to rent a drysuit. However, the price of the new drysuit includes the drysuit course, so draw your own conclusions.

In my case I consider the proper thermals to be very important. I have seen someone using a winter coat who had to vent his suit via neck seal. Why? The winter coat fluffed up against the vent and the "emergency method" (taught in drysuit courses) was the only way that he had to prevent a ballistic missile ascent from 100 ft. BTW, that water was about 40 degrees. Personally, I use 200 gm thinsulate undies with another thinner set of fleece undies underneath. I am crossing fingers and knocking on wood to say that I have experienced a few partial floods from ripping my drysuit on things that I was going through, but never a full flood.

As to weighting, another issue that comes up is that sometimes it takes a little bit for the air that was added to the DS to come out on ascent. The undies will do their job and trap a little of that air. That air is what is keeping you warm. So I prefer to be slightly overweighted when diving dry to make my ascent a little cleaner in case it will take two or three attempts to vent all of the gas that I added to the drysuit on the bottom.

I use a tri-lam (OK, Cordura) drysuit for the reasons of minimizing the buoyancy adjustments that are necessary with neoprene. I have tried neoprene and I hate the "floatiness" of the full foam neoprene. I love the crushed neoprene (tougher than nails and practically form fitting), but I despise the price tag. I prefer the rockboots over the attached but dive attached boots as my dive shop is an Andy's dealer and that is the way that Andy's makes their drysuits. I get my discounts through there so that is what I dive. The attached boots aren't a huge deal either. I just don't care for giving that air another pocket to be trapped in. I'll probably get the thicker thinsulate socks to minimize that outlet when I get the chance.

Is the course a good idea? Yes, depending on the instructor. I have had to unofficially reteach a couple of these courses where the instructors actually didn't teach the course properly. Still, I can't recommend against the course. I would just make sure that the instructor actually dives a drysuit outside of teaching the course. We have many dive professionals here who are little more than a PM away if you need referrals.

IF you can't get the course locally, you may have to settle for getting some books and reading up. Then dive with some drysuit experienced buddies that you trust until you feel comfortable. That is fine, but I personally wouldn't call it preferred.

[ScubaPunk]

Is it too soon to throw back entry vs. front entry into the mix?

Good God man what are you thinking bringing this up?

i am not even going to say it........ just gonna leave that alone..............

Thank you gcbryan for explaining the back vs front entry. I was guessing maybe it was some way to enter the water, but was afraid to ask! How much more difficult is it than zipping up a wet suit with the zipper in the back? Does it have a pull string attached?

I really appreciate all this information. I am going to take a class, but I am rather focused on this right now.

From what I think I have learned is that there are two maybe three different types of dry suits, each designed to withstand different water temperatures?

The foam neoprene and a nylon shell; is there another?

Does the form neoprene have some type of lining or outer surface that makes it warmer than a wet suit? What makes it water proof? I am assuming the zippers and neck wrist and ankle areas are designed to keep water out, but it is neoprene right? I don't get it. And you don't need an undergarment with this one?

The lakes here in the winter are in the 50 degree range. Would a foam neoprene sufice? Do all types of dry suits have the inflator valves? Do you use the inflator the same way you would on your BC and just not use your BC? Are the Nylon Shell suits mainly for super cold water, or is it just a personal preference.

It sounds to me like the attached socks with separate boots is the way to go. Do all the suits come with attached socks or boots, or can you choose.

[peterbj7]

When I'm diving in cold water, not very often these days, I have a choice of two drysuits. One is a fairly lightweight trilaminate made by Oceanic in the UK, and it's my suit of preference if I'm flying to my diving. My under garment is a fairly heavyweight Thinsulate, which I wear with (virtually!) nothing under it.

My other drysuit is an O'Three crushed neoprene, and the only reason it isn't my only drysuit is that it is very heavy and nonsense to fly with. Any UK diving that I drive to is always with this suit. It's 3mm thick after compression, and has a kevlar-like coating on the outside that makes it impossible to snag on even the rustiest and sharpest bit of wreck. It feels like a straitjacket on the surface, but underwater it all makes sense. For extreme cold water diving I can't imagine anything better. The suit is only available made-to-measure, and I know it was a nightmare to make as the material is so tough. I use the same Thinsulate.

I used to have a DUI CF200 which was also made-to-measure, but the difference is that I sent in my measurements and they sent me the completed suit. I had three interim fittings for the O'Three. I never really got on with the DUI and sold it after a couple of years.

I once had my dump valve blocked by the outer skin of a borrowed Thinsulate, but my own has much thicker and stiffer material that has never caused a problem.

On both my current suits I have neoprene cuff and neck seals. I've tried latex, but not only are they fragile but they're uncomfortable. Neoprene seals made for you and properly fitted combine superb comfort with total water exclusion, and they last a long, long time.

I chose a rear (shoulder) zip because I find it more comfortable. I have worn front zip suits and find the zip is uncomfortable when I bend forward, whereas with a properly sized and fitted shoulder zip I'm not aware of it once it's on.

A few years ago I did some January diving in northern Alaska. I had my trilaminate, but to save bulk (the Thinsulate is very bulky) I only had a thin fleece coverall plus other outdoor clothing. I put on as much as I could actually get into the suit but was very cold, whereas I've dived under sheet ice with just my Thinsulate under the trilaminate and was warm. Thinsulate is certainly the answer, but there are many versions with a thin outer shell that can cause dump problems - choose one with a thicker and stiffer shell.

The most testing conditions for drysuit diving are when the water is very cold but the air is warm, and maybe there's also a warm sun. The problem then is sweating inside the suit before you get in the water, which makes your skin and clothes damp and can cause a chill under water. Suit up as late as possible, avoid walking or lifting with the suit on, and get in the water as quickly as possible once your suit is zipped up. And don't wear anything cotton.

One more thing on fit. I've never used rockboots but they do strike me as a good idea, purely because they should facilitate a good tight fit on the feet. The worst thing to happen with a drysuit is for your feet to come out of the drysuit boots, because then you're effectively helpless. The two most important aspects of a drysuit fit are (in my view) the length of the leg and the fit of the boots.

Edited by peterbj7, 28 January 2006 - 11:54 AM.

[Diverbrian]

Is it too soon to throw back entry vs. front entry into the mix?

Good God man what are you thinking bringing this up?

i am not even going to say it........ just gonna leave that alone..............

Thank you gcbryan for explaining the back vs front entry. I was guessing maybe it was some way to enter the water, but was afraid to ask! How much more difficult is it than zipping up a wet suit with the zipper in the back? Does it have a pull string attached?

I really appreciate all this information. I am going to take a class, but I am rather focused on this right now.

From what I think I have learned is that there are two maybe three different types of dry suits, each designed to withstand different water temperatures?

The foam neoprene and a nylon shell; is there another?

Does the form neoprene have some type of lining or outer surface that makes it warmer than a wet suit? What makes it water proof? I am assuming the zippers and neck wrist and ankle areas are designed to keep water out, but it is neoprene right? I don't get it. And you don't need an undergarment with this one?

The lakes here in the winter are in the 50 degree range. Would a foam neoprene sufice? Do all types of dry suits have the inflator valves? Do you use the inflator the same way you would on your BC and just not use your BC? Are the Nylon Shell suits mainly for super cold water, or is it just a personal preference.

It sounds to me like the attached socks with separate boots is the way to go. Do all the suits come with attached socks or boots, or can you choose.

The undies will control the tolerance to water temp. Not the suit. Neoprene does provide a little more insulation in the event of a flood (in theory), but has buoyancy issues that go with it. Undergarments in 50 degree water will be required no matter which type of suit that you choose. However, the neoprene dry suits are still drysuits and still will keep you dry.

Yes, all drysuits designed for diving have inflator valves and vent valves. The air going into the undies is what is providing your insulation. If you don't "fluff" the undies a little as you go deeper, you simply compress them and lose some of the insulation value.

Nylon shell suits tend to be preferred by deep divers for their constant buoyancy at depth. You don't need to add near as much air as you aren't compressing the air out of the suit material at depth. Neoprene has the disadvantage of a wetsuit in that you need to accomodate the compression of the neoprene at depth.

The "third" that you may have noticed is compressed neoprene. This is very expensive as the manufacturer can not cut neoprene after it has been super pressurized (too bulletproof at that point) and the process itself changes the size of the suit. It does provide a little of the advantages of neoprene (a little more suit insulation value and a practically indestructible suit) without having a suit that varies widely in its buoyancy characteristics over depth. Another disadvantage of neoprene drysuits is the longer dry-out time (similar to a wetsuit) versus the tri-lam's ability to literally dry and be ready to pack in minutes.

[ScubaPunk]

I think this is starting to come together now. The third type would be the crushed neoprene, which has advantages but will be more expensive. Does the Tri-lam or Cordula fit into the nylon shell category? The Nylon Shells are better for deeper diving but not necessarily any warmer than the neoprenes? The warmth is determined by the undergarments you wear?

[gcbryan]

[
Thank you gcbryan for explaining the back vs front entry. I was guessing maybe it was some way to enter the water, but was afraid to ask! How much more difficult is it than zipping up a wet suit with the zipper in the back? Does it have a pull string attached?

I really appreciate all this information. I am going to take a class, but I am rather focused on this right now.

From what I think I have learned is that there are two maybe three different types of dry suits, each designed to withstand different water temperatures?

The foam neoprene and a nylon shell; is there another?

Does the form neoprene have some type of lining or outer surface that makes it warmer than a wet suit? What makes it water proof? I am assuming the zippers and neck wrist and ankle areas are designed to keep water out, but it is neoprene right? I don't get it. And you don't need an undergarment with this one?

The lakes here in the winter are in the 50 degree range. Would a foam neoprene sufice? Do all types of dry suits have the inflator valves? Do you use the inflator the same way you would on your BC and just not use your BC? Are the Nylon Shell suits mainly for super cold water, or is it just a personal preference.

It sounds to me like the attached socks with separate boots is the way to go. Do all the suits come with attached socks or boots, or can you choose.

Regarding the back zipper, no it's not like a wetsuit vertical zipper with a pull string. It's horizontal across the shoulders. Basically, you need your buddy to zip you up.

The suits to a certain extent are personal preference. It's not about water temp. They can all be made to work in cold water. I dive in 46-55 F water using a trilam, some of my buddies have crushed neoprene, it all works.

Wetsuit neoprene is open cell and drysuit neoprene is closed cell. Water doesn't get in so you stay warm. Trapped air and the insulation value of the neoprene is what keeps you warm plus the undergarment. There is no insulation value to trilam so it is strictly trapped air and the undergarment that keeps you warm.

I prefer attached socks with separate boots but I have buddies who have attached boots and they like them as well. With some suits you have no choice, with many you do have a choice. DUI's are all attached socks as is OS Systems. Bare offers both.

You need undergarments with both types but can use lighter undergarments with neoprene.

Neoprene suits may have neoprene seals or latex. I believe all trilam suits have latex (which is what I use). I think latex is more comfortable and can seal better but it is more fragile. And yes, you have both neck and wrist seals which keep the water out. Just to be through there are different types of neoprene and this has to do with expense. The least expensive closed cell are very buoyant, require a lot of weight to get down, and all are heavy and take a while to dry. Compressed neoprene and crushed neoprene are more expensive, don't compress at depth and are what most people that I know dive if they are diving neoprene.

All drysuits have inflator valves and exhaust valves. The inflator valve is on the chest and looks like a large button. It has a LP hose going to your first stage. You press the button to add air. The exhaust valve is usually on your left shoulder. You can adjust it but it more or less exhausts automatically as long as you raise your shoulder to be the highest point when you want to vent.

Regarding how you use your drysuit vs BC it depends. It is taught several ways. I inflate my suit only enough to take the suit squeeze away and just enough to stay warm and use my BC (wing) for everything else. When it's time to ascend I fully vent my BC by 30 fsw and use my drysuit from that point to the surface.

Did I get to all of your questions? Whew!

Gray

I think this is starting to come together now. The third type would be the crushed neoprene, which has advantages but will be more expensive. Does the Tri-lam or Cordula fit into the nylon shell category? The Nylon Shells are better for deeper diving but not necessarily any warmer than the neoprenes? The warmth is determined by the undergarments you wear?

Trilam is the nylon category. It's more appropriate to refer to it as trilam. I think I used nylon earlier just to describe it somewhat. Cordura is actually a covering on some trilam suits to make it more puncture resistent on the outside. Think of someone penetrating a wreck with sharp metal all around.