83 replies to this topic

[Cold_H2O]

another big fan of the tables... I rely on my computer too much.. but I did learn tables and know that I can (with a little thinking) work them.

[scubafanatic]

My step son is working on his OW now. I am surprised that they aren't learning the tables anymore. Everything is dependent on the E-RDP. I don't like that idea at all. When I took my Nitrox course, I was the only one in the class that knew the tables and what they were for. What happens to your dive planning if the batteries in the e-RDP fail?

I also wish I had learned how to fit my gear, learned more about bouyancy control and navigation.

I hear ya! My shop recently made the decision to teach from the ERDP as well. IT SUCKS! But that is ok, I am gona to abide by the managers decision... I am ALSO gonna talk to the owner (I am with a 7 store chain) and see what he thinks about the whole thing.

Come on though. Lets talk reality here. How many folks out there actually do not use a computer (and rely on IT'S batteries) OR calculate their dive tables as they should. I do not recall seeing more than a very few folks over the last 16 years using their tables even with no computer.

The value of the tables appears to have turned into a tool for understanding the theory of gas absorption and release, not for actually planning a dive! Sad to say but what I have noticed in the Caribean is an attitude that what the DM plans MUST be ok!

I teach the specific lesson that each diver is responcible for his / her own safety and tell them that if they are uncomfortable with a plan, they need to tell the DM that they need an alternative idea of how to dive a particular site!

You should get an overview of tons of specialties during your OW. Buoyancy, Nav Equipment, Digital Photography, Drift, Deep, Rescue, Advanced among others are all touched on in my course. Sorry to say, but I can not teach everything I want someone to experiance during the OW. Time, cost, and task overloading just prevent SO MUCH. I encorage a brief overview and then tell my folks to explore the sport, find their areas of interest and further their education in those areas.

Tell me this all you readers of these posts...... Have you taken any specialties filling in the missing areas that you have mentioned? Some of the things mentioned SHOULD have been covered at least briefly and you might have already learned through the school of hard knocks (sorry that you had to go through that) but if something interests you I encourage you to bite the bullet and get the good stuff from someone who can fill out your education and allow you to be a safer, more experianced diver and have more fun!

I used an ERDP calculator as part of the OW cert and wished I hadn't.

The problem is that once you move away from the standard tables, and you need to work in factors that the ERDP calculator can't handle. I live at altitude and most of my local dives are at greater that 5,000 feet. The ERDP doesn't handle that, but I could make those adjustments. The other place is when you move to Nitrox, and have never looked at a table prior to them. I found myself learning tables at the same time I was learning Nitrox and it made what should have been a quick review much more challenging.

I'll admit I rely on my computer more than I should, but then again, I alway also dive with a watch, SPG & backup computer too. If you are depending on the computer to do the calculations for you, you better have some form of redundancy and a backup plan if the computer dies mid dive.

......well, I guess my back-up plan is diving with anywhere from 2 to as many as 4 computers simultaneously.....yes, 4 computers ! (Oceanic DataMax Pro Plus 2 / Cochran EMC-20H / Cochran GEMINI with intelligent wrist unit) I don't ever want to have to fool with tables on a dive vacation !

[pir8]

The Wheel (1985-2008)
What d ya think bout this one???

[Cold_H2O]

The Wheel (1985-2008)
What d ya think bout this one???

That almost made me cry.

[capnalan]

My step son is working on his OW now. I am surprised that they aren't learning the tables anymore. Everything is dependent on the E-RDP. I don't like that idea at all. When I took my Nitrox course, I was the only one in the class that knew the tables and what they were for. What happens to your dive planning if the batteries in the e-RDP fail?

I also wish I had learned how to fit my gear, learned more about bouyancy control and navigation.

I hear ya! My shop recently made the decision to teach from the ERDP as well. IT SUCKS! But that is ok, I am gona to abide by the managers decision... I am ALSO gonna talk to the owner (I am with a 7 store chain) and see what he thinks about the whole thing.

Come on though. Lets talk reality here. How many folks out there actually do not use a computer (and rely on IT'S batteries) OR calculate their dive tables as they should. I do not recall seeing more than a very few folks over the last 16 years using their tables even with no computer.

The value of the tables appears to have turned into a tool for understanding the theory of gas absorption and release, not for actually planning a dive! Sad to say but what I have noticed in the Caribean is an attitude that what the DM plans MUST be ok!

I teach the specific lesson that each diver is responcible for his / her own safety and tell them that if they are uncomfortable with a plan, they need to tell the DM that they need an alternative idea of how to dive a particular site!

You should get an overview of tons of specialties during your OW. Buoyancy, Nav Equipment, Digital Photography, Drift, Deep, Rescue, Advanced among others are all touched on in my course. Sorry to say, but I can not teach everything I want someone to experiance during the OW. Time, cost, and task overloading just prevent SO MUCH. I encorage a brief overview and then tell my folks to explore the sport, find their areas of interest and further their education in those areas.

Tell me this all you readers of these posts...... Have you taken any specialties filling in the missing areas that you have mentioned? Some of the things mentioned SHOULD have been covered at least briefly and you might have already learned through the school of hard knocks (sorry that you had to go through that) but if something interests you I encourage you to bite the bullet and get the good stuff from someone who can fill out your education and allow you to be a safer, more experianced diver and have more fun!

I used an ERDP calculator as part of the OW cert and wished I hadn't.

The problem is that once you move away from the standard tables, and you need to work in factors that the ERDP calculator can't handle. I live at altitude and most of my local dives are at greater that 5,000 feet. The ERDP doesn't handle that, but I could make those adjustments. The other place is when you move to Nitrox, and have never looked at a table prior to them. I found myself learning tables at the same time I was learning Nitrox and it made what should have been a quick review much more challenging.

I'll admit I rely on my computer more than I should, but then again, I alway also dive with a watch, SPG & backup computer too. If you are depending on the computer to do the calculations for you, you better have some form of redundancy and a backup plan if the computer dies mid dive.

......well, I guess my back-up plan is diving with anywhere from 2 to as many as 4 computers simultaneously.....yes, 4 computers ! (Oceanic DataMax Pro Plus 2 / Cochran EMC-20H / Cochran GEMINI with intelligent wrist unit) I don't ever want to have to fool with tables on a dive vacation ! :teeth:

It seems I am always swimming against a current (or having a headwind) which ever way I go! I have to give my opinion here though... I think that
the demise of the tables..IS A GOOD THING....Even before computers I rarely saw divers using tables after training...instead relying on remembered profiles.... Of more importance ... not discussed much today is the origin and basis of the "TABLES"(guesswork by the NAVY?). Much has been learned about diving and the body
the last 20 years...and computer alogorithms(sp?) take this knowledge into account and we have a choice on how aggressive an alogorithm we wish to purchase when buying the computer. (i.e. better information than the "tables") In my years at sea I was ultimately responsible for over 4000 divers making multiple dives...all on computers...or NOTHING...never once did we have an accident.

[robcgould]

"I think that the demise of the tables..IS A GOOD THING....Much has been learned about diving and the body
the last 20 years...and computer alogorithms(sp?) take this knowledge into account and we have a choice on how aggressive an alogorithm we wish to purchase when buying the computer."

Isn't it interesting that ALL existing computers that I know of use or are based on the same algorithims that the tables use? The safety margin comes from additional factors that the computer uses to modify the 4 basic algorithims that are available to us today as it writes a custom dive table for us.

The problem as I see it is NOT with the tool (computer OR table) it is the person using it! I have experienced first hand just as much computer neglect as I have table neglect. Next time you are out on a boat dive really notice how many folks check their computer planning function after a dive briefing to ensure that they can follow the Dive Masters stated profile!

We become sheep once we get on that vessel. We forget what our instructor taught about being resposible for our own safety!

As far as the questionable safety and history of the tables..... Until we have the technology to real time monitor our body gas absorbtion, we are kinda stuck with this whole best guess mathmatical model of what is going on in our body. This is true wiith the table or computer of choice. The tables were derived from USN information (from human testing) with additional safety margins built in because recreational divers are generally NOT 20 year old cream-of-the-crop men who can run 27 miles in 3 minutes! The history of that little card is pretty awesome and it has generated a record of millions of safe dives. The disclaimer that you can have an incident when following the tables is just as true and important with any computer! The only way to 100% guarantee that you are not going to get hit is to stay out of the water (NOT an option!) We make every dive secure in the knowledge that we are going to be just fine because of the outstanding history of safety. We then add out own level of conservancy factoring in dehydration, weight, fitness level, how hard we partied last night etc. These are things that MUST be left up to the human brain and are our responcibility!

Tables are taught for regular use before during and after EVERY dive. There is an additional benefit that it gives hands on examples of exactly how this whole nitrogen absortion thing affects of and just how important it is! Remember that the touted safety of using a computer is eclipsed by the level of safety shown in the decades of table use!

[georoc01]

Don't throw out those tables just yet..

Product No. 60049 Ver 1.2 (Rev 02/03) XXXPDK7
PADI Americas is recalling a single version of the English Imperial EANx32 Recreational Dive Planner used for calculating dive profiles. A printing error caused a series of numbers to be out of alignment, thus incorrect. The risk of injury from these errors is remote and no injuries have been reported.

All RDPs included in this recall bear the printing mark “Printed in the USA” located on the back of the table, upper right corner. The product number and production code are located on the lower right corner, also on the back of the table. The product number and production code affected by this recall are:

The product code digits indicated by “X” may vary. The last four digits “PDK7” indicate a recalled table, irrespective of what the first three digits are.

As a double check, on Table 3, check the 110 foot row under Pressure Group G. The table should indicate a Residual Nitrogen Time (upper number in white) of 13 and an Actual Bottom Time (lower number in green) of 12. If this box is blank, you have a misprinted table.

We will be notifying consumers certified as PADI Enriched Air Divers after 17 January 2008 via the PADI website, e-mail and other means. They will be directed to stop using the recalled RDP immediately and bring them to any PADI Dive Center/Resort or return them to PADI for a free replacement. If you replace one of these RDPs for a consumer, please notify your PADI Sales Consultant to receive your replacement product.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and ask for your assistance by including this information when you communicate with your customers. Please contact PADI Americas if you have any concerns or questions.

[drifter]

I did my OW in a weekend of classroom work with evening pool sessions then OW dives in a quarry over the next 2 weeks. I had 3 friends that enrolled in the course with me. All of us had similar education (all scientific degrees), but they didn't read the book ahead of time and I think it really hurt their experience during the pool sessions. They struggled to get the skills down, and didn't really enjoy the experience. As others have mentioned, spreading out the classroom work would have made this better for them. For the weekend classes, having the students do prep work seems reasonable.

Working on controlling buoyancy is probably the one skill I wish we had worked on more. Maintaining a constant dept without any anchor point (the fin pivot is a great intro into this skill, but lift up 5 feet and stay there). Also, showing the students how to get the right weight for themselves when they go on a trip. We had a pretty large class, so he was just handing out weight to each diver (erring on the side of too heavy). Looking back, I wish he would have gone through the steps that we should go through when we do a check out dive on a trip since that's why most people are taking the course.

[ddierolf]

A hot female instructor in a thong!


And learning dive planning and skills better. I was certified by one agency and now I am pretty far through my Divemaster course and I see alot of things being taught in their basic course that we never were exposed to or just kind of glanced over.

[Dive_Girl]

A hot female instructor in a thong!

All of us female instructors at my shop wear thongs...one on each foot. The rest of us is covered in neoprene just like you boys. I actually went to another dive shop for my DM program because the instructor at the first shop I was diving with was incredible good looking (my epitome of hot hot hot) and I knew I would be distracted. I wanted to know that I was focused on my training and doing it for the right reasons and not to lose myself in McSteamy's eyes.

I wanted to thank everyone for such great posts. I plan to go back through these pages again as talking points with my instructional staff at our next meeting. Keep the posts coming! It shouldn't matter if some are repeat ideas - that just tells us dive pros how important that particular issue is to a diver. My two biggies are still dive planning and understanding how to incorporate your planned use of air within your plan. Basic fundamentals.

[ddierolf]

A hot female instructor in a thong!

All of us female instructors at my shop wear thongs...one on each foot. The rest of us is covered in neoprene just like you boys.

Some people are into the feet thing! But I digress! Just keeping planning and skills fresh, especially the rescue and first aid as well as dive planning and general good habits.

[OTWdiver]

This topic makes my day. I have been out of touch for a while and found this thread. I can honestly say I have been learning for over 25 years from the new divers. I have never been asked a dumb question that I am aware of. I can tell you many things I did not learn from an instructor that should have been taught. I have had to Dive Master for large classes and learned I don’t like large classes.

I learned from several instructors how not to teach and how to teach from a few.

I answer the question I am asked on how long the class will take. I have done it in two day with some and two months with others.

This is my speech for every student. It comes from the things I missed out on in my open water class.

The basic class is a learners permit! Next you should go slow, allow time to avoid being in a rush. Pick a patient experienced buddy that will slowly let you advance and not push you beyond your skills. Take responsibility to learn more and do a specialty class or two. Advanced open water should be a challenge to everyone to get a little more from the sport.

Navigation is what will make you confident under the water.
You should know where you are, where you have been, and how to get back if it was worth it and how to avoid it if it wasn’t good.

Buoyancy control will make you feel like a fish and make you look like a good diver.

The basic class should give you the safety information and basic skills but time in the water is the only thing that will make you a good diver. I can make recommendations, tell you what you are doing wrong or right but the time you spend underwater is the most valuable thing you can do for yourself.

[drbill]

I'm feeling "frisky" today so I'll just say women. I started diving and was later certified in the 60's. I think we had one woman in our class. It is great to see the sport moving more towards a gender neutral participation.

[Rocky_B]

Since I was really busy at work when I stumbled across this subject, I thought I would add to it. My initial open water training was done in a regular big city dive shop in Atlanta. All the fancy gear, bright colors, etc. Almost like going to a gym with all of the chrome machines, trainers waiting to sign you and as many guest as you could muster in. Class work done, trip to Destin, open water dives completed, certified OW. On my first certified trip to the local lake, we drove past a little shop that was almost leaving the shiny gym or "spa" and looking inside a free weight gym with all of the muscle heads, rubber pads on the floor so weights wouldnt chip the concrete, no carpet of course. I didnt see a bunch of neon signs advertising out front so I kind of felt "intimidated" to go actually up to the place. After a phone call to the owner, in which at no time was there any kind of sales pitch or push to get me in and sign up, I decided to go up and meet this person that had so many interesting ideas and information. In talking to him, I could tell I had the bug. Maybe that was fleas from his dog Cassie or Dive Shop Rat Dan. That was a little over 4 yrs ago. Since then, I have completed all of my certifications with him. None have been "bought C Cards". I have gone from AOW to recently Trimix. In my gym analogy, I have worked out with the Schwartzenegger in the gym. I do not feel at any time I have asked him a stupid question. As a matter of fact, I have never asked a question he could not or did not answer. I have heard him on several occasions field questions from OW students to Trimix to 12 yr old begginers, all recieved the same attention.

For those divers getting to further their dive training with him on SD trips, congratulations on recieving some top notch training. If there is anything I wish my instructor could have done that he didnt and I really dont know if he can, is this:

SHOW ME HOW TO NOT BREATHE UNDERWATER LIKE YOUR WIFE DOES.

Oh yeah, the name of my instructor for the past 4 yrs: Bill Routh (OTW Diver)

Thanks Bill for the great learning experience.

Rocky

[airforcediver]

Howdy! Well first off I'm a new diver...only 28 logged dives since getting my OW in July 08. After getting my OW I didn't dive again until October 08, when I did my AOW. I just finished Rescue Diver at Mammoth Lake, Clute, TX this past weekend. My thoughts:

OW) I had a great instructor. I'm not familiar enough with law enforcement to know his exact position, but he was a cop and he performed a lot of training for his PD so he was comfortable in an instructor role. The only thing I wish he would've added was information on how to meet other divers...I left the class thinking that I'd just found a sport that I loved, but that I would have a really rough time participating in. I also would have liked more information on dive etiquette (tipping, asking for help with gear, buddying up with people that you've never met before, etc.) just to add to my comfort level. I'm definitely not a wallflower but it still took me a couple of months after I left the class to wrangle up a group.

AOW) My AOW was a joke. Viz was 5-7 ft (Lake Travis, Austin). Most of the students hadn't done any diving since we got our OW's so we were still talking ourselves through the basics. The instructor had several groups doing different tasks at the same time (he was also running three or four folks through specialty courses) so I never saw him after we got in the water. Combine uncomfortable divers with bad viz and navigation...you get a lot of very lost, unhappy people. My deep dive was a particularly good example of this. I had accomplished two of the previous day's dives with a newly assigned buddy who was obviously uncomfortable with the idea of being underwater, particularly since the viz was so bad. As we approached the buoy to descend she commented that she was scared of being under so much water. I asked if she really wanted to go through with it and she said she did. Because of her discomfort, the instructor went down with us. The rest of the class was to follow. As we descend on the line I'm keeping an eye on her and periodically exchanging "okay"s. We're all using lights. We hit the muck at the bottom at 84 ft; we exchange okays and move after the instructor...then she abruptly signals to abort the dive. No reason why (turns out she just got stressed out and started to feel air starved). I signal the instructor and tell him we're going up. The instructor nods and then goes to find the rest of the class. We're off the line at this point and I had been so busy keeping an eye on her that I hadn't looked at my compass, so I didn't have a clue where to start looking for it (probably a good thing as we would have been smacked on the head by our descending classmates). At that point she was responsive but was not making any attempt to ascend and was visibly shaken so I grabbed her arm and ascended to 15 ft. And yes, I went a little fast because I was inflating my BC...I'd never tried to achieve positive buoyancy for TWO people instead of just myself. I had to invert myself at 18 ft in order to slow down enough to hold us both down for the decompression stop which I knew we were supposed to be doing. We got to the top and I towed her in and got her out of the water. The point is, I wasn't prepared for any of that. I was focused on my own condition and had no idea how to diagnose hers. I had never ascended from depths of more than 30 feet by myself, let alone while holding onto another person. She did a good job of staying calm...I definitely would not have been prepared to deal with a panicked diver scenario. I'm sure instructors see this kind of stuff all the time, but that was my 5th or 6th dive and it threw the fear into me. Nothing so dramatic happened on the rest of the dives but I also didn't feel like I learned much on them.

RD) I used the same instructor as for my AOW...the difference was that we had a much smaller group, only three students in the water. This class was very good. He threw in a lot of random "what-if" type scenarios that I really enjoyed, and that kept us all on our toes. We got individual attention and critiques. If we did something wrong we did it over again until we got it right. It was tough. I loved it!

So now that I've written my memoirs, here are the lessons learned:

- Even a great instructor sucks when he/she tries to take on too much at once. Bad viz really limits the number of people an instructor can effectively teach. I haven't looked at instructor course material but I'm sure this idea is already represented in it.

- If I'd known during my AOW what I learned in my RD, I never would have allowed my dive buddy to descend in the first place. That leads me to believe that some of the RD material should make its way into the OW course.

- I think that learning your buddy's gear should have more pre-eminence in the class. My OW instructor focused on the location of the weight belt, but I learned in RD that I didn't have the first clue how to take a Black Diamond BC off an unconscious person. My buddies were completely mystified at how my Sherwood fit together. We could all find each other's weights, but not the quick release snaps.

- What-if scenarios are great. In my OW class we only shared air when the instructor said "Okay, now we're going to descend and share air". It was something new to me when a dive buddy came out of the murk at Mammoth Lake at top speed and signalled Out of Air. That was a huge confidence builder.

Wow, I need a nap after writing that.
Steve