61 replies to this topic

[Capn Jack]

It's interesting to see a number of experienced divers in this thread using little or no dumpable weight.

Does this mean that dumpable weight is an overrated safety device? (kind of like floating airplane seat cusions?)

Carrying weight when you don't need to is less safe - so I choose not to except with students when I need the spares and the extra "muscle" to keep students from bolting.

Ironically, there are documented cases where the diver in distress did NOT dump their dumpable weight. So I'd characterize it as an UNDERUTILIZED device, not an overrated one.

Strong OPINION follows.

In our continuous attention to avoiding DCS, I think some divers are pre-occupied with not coming up too fast, so dumping weights when a situation below would suggest it, becomes a last resort thought. I'll repeat myself - we can fix bent. We can't fix dead.

On the surface, the distressed diver goes from elation to panic as they discover they're swallowing waves, lacking the energy to swim, can't see the boat etc., and then they fail to release their weight.

[Diverbrian]

It's interesting to see a number of experienced divers in this thread using little or no dumpable weight.

Does this mean that dumpable weight is an overrated safety device? (kind of like floating airplane seat cusions?)

Carrying weight when you don't need to is less safe - so I choose not to except with students when I need the spares and the extra "muscle" to keep students from bolting.

Ironically, there are documented cases where the diver in distress did NOT dump their dumpable weight. So I'd characterize it as an UNDERUTILIZED device, not an overrated one.

Strong OPINION follows.

In our continuous attention to avoiding DCS, I think some divers are pre-occupied with not coming up too fast, so dumping weights when a situation below would suggest it, becomes a last resort thought. I'll repeat myself - we can fix bent. We can't fix dead.

On the surface, the distressed diver goes from elation to panic as they discover they're swallowing waves, lacking the energy to swim, can't see the boat etc., and then they fail to release their weight.

True statements here. This is why the first thing that we teach someone in a rescue of a panicking diver is dump the stricken diver's weight. This is especially true if they are flailing around on the surface. If they are flailing on the surface add getting their BC inflated. They are capable of going back down without these things being done.

I typically don't carry ditchable weight due to my heavy double steel tanks, but that doesn't mean that I don't take buoyancy into consideration. It is one reason that I insist on diving dry. If my BC fails, I have enough lift with my drysuit to get me back up without having to tread water to do so.

OPINION follows on my part:

But a few bucks of lead is NOT worth a diver's life. If you even suspect that you will need to, feel free to dump your ditchable weights upon surfacing. Considering the 25 pound weight belt that my buddies and I found in the local quarry last weekend (that was the day after recovering the students 30+ pound belt near the dock), I am still scared for whoever dropped that. It was in 120 ft. of water. If they were at depth, that was one heck of a rocket ride to the surface. You will want to consider that as a last resort at depth, but never eliminate options if you expect to come back to tell the tale.

Still, Cap't Jack has a valid point. You MAY be able to fix bent. You WON'T be able to fix dead.





(As an aside) Oh and I do think about S.I. when doing multiple deep dives in a day. It is rare to see me do more than two deep staged deco dives in a day and the typical S.I. is 2-3 hrs. or the deco is just too long to be comfortable.

[Dive_Girl]

I typically don't carry ditchable weight due to my heavy double steel tanks, but that doesn't mean that I don't take buoyancy into consideration. It is one reason that I insist on diving dry. If my BC fails, I have enough lift with my drysuit to get me back up without having to tread water to do so.

If my set-up has more than enough negative in-water weight for me to dive without ditchable weight, then how would carrying extra ditchable weight help me? Just so I can dump it? As Brian pionted uot, when some divers move to a set-up that doesn't requier them to wear ditchable weight, safety measures are taken and option/alternatives are prepared for in advance. For example as Brian pointed out, my drysuit could lift me if my BC failed. Some people dive double bladdered BCs (I personally don't as I think that is too excessive). If my BC AND my drysuit failed,* I carry 1-2 lift bags with 50lb lift. AND if all of that failed ALL at the same time, I'd swim up.

*I have had a full flooded drysuit when my neckseal came off my suit last month and yet I was still able to add and retain air in the suit in a horizontal position. So the idea of my drysuit just comlpetely failing me, would have to be after a major tearing event.

[PerroneFord]

Good point on the S.I. When I say "worrying about SI" I mean reading a table and wondering "when I can get back in the water".

I try to do a 2:1 surface interval. Dive half an hour, 1hr surface interval. Dive 45 minutes, take a 90 minute surface interval. For my common recreational dives this is fine.

I've just started doing cleaner deco profiles. So I'll clean up as much as possible in the water. I am also starting to use something closer to "best mix" for my recreational profiles. Yesterday I was on EAN36 for my 70ft and my 50ft dives. Runtimes of 29 and 22 minutes respectively.

[6Gill]

True statements here. This is why the first thing that we teach someone in a rescue of a panicking diver is dump the stricken diver's weight. This is especially true if they are flailing around on the surface. If they are flailing on the surface add getting their BC inflated. They are capable of going back down without these things being done.

OPINION follows on my part:

But a few bucks of lead is NOT worth a diver's life. If you even suspect that you will need to, feel free to dump your ditchable weights upon surfacing. Considering the 25 pound weight belt that my buddies and I found in the local quarry last weekend (that was the day after recovering the students 30+ pound belt near the dock), I am still scared for whoever dropped that. It was in 120 ft. of water. If they were at depth, that was one heck of a rocket ride to the surface. You will want to consider that as a last resort at depth, but never eliminate options if you expect to come back to tell the tale.

Still, Cap't Jack has a valid point. You MAY be able to fix bent. You WON'T be able to fix dead.

This is pointed out in the O/W and rescues class but who here that dives with ditchable weights practise this skill regularly?Can you get at the release without fumbling ect will the weights clear without hanging up on anything?Any skill that you must use in an emergency has to be repeated over and over again so it is automatic.Knowing what to do and beeing able to do it are two different things...there is a reason why emt,firefighters,soldiers practise over and over again and also do refreshers.
One of the issues in cold water diving is the amount of weight one needs to wear to off set the suit.Dumping a 20-30lbs weight belt to me seems like jumping out the 5th floor window to escape a fire you didn't burn and you hope you might survive the landing.Spliting up the weight so if you need to ditch weight you don't let it all go allows for a bit more control.
As ScubaDadMiami pointed out doing regular bouancy checks is a good thing...it takes a couple min. at the end of the dive.

[Scubatooth]

there are people that have posted above me that gave some very good advice. for me personally i follow SDM way of doing weight checks as every couple of dives i go double check my weighting to make sure its where it needs to be, which is how i have gone from over 30lbs in ow to only 5 lbs now (in fresh).

for my personal diving i have my weight set up so that im able to hold a 10 foot stop with 500 in the tank, and a empty wing. its a different story when working with students because i will have a extra 5-10 so that i can hand off or use a leverage to stop ICBMs. it just depends on the situation

for me personally as right now i dont dive a BP&W (but will soon) and i have weight pockets on my bc that i can rip cord and get rid of if need be but i dont need to get rid of them if i have a failure on my BC because i can swim up my rig. now if i was diving doubles and/or a drysuit that would be a different situation but i will cross that road when i get there.

Now for ditching weight to be muscle memory takes alot of practice, so that in the case of a emergancy its second nature, because in a emergancy and you havent practiced to get rid of weight its not going to be in the forfront of your memory, and its not going to come across your mind.


beyond just proper weighting also need trim(weight in the right places) so that you float in the water flat instead of head up or down

Edited by scubatooth, 07 May 2006 - 11:27 AM.

[Diverbrian]

True statements here. This is why the first thing that we teach someone in a rescue of a panicking diver is dump the stricken diver's weight. This is especially true if they are flailing around on the surface. If they are flailing on the surface add getting their BC inflated. They are capable of going back down without these things being done.

OPINION follows on my part:

But a few bucks of lead is NOT worth a diver's life. If you even suspect that you will need to, feel free to dump your ditchable weights upon surfacing. Considering the 25 pound weight belt that my buddies and I found in the local quarry last weekend (that was the day after recovering the students 30+ pound belt near the dock), I am still scared for whoever dropped that. It was in 120 ft. of water. If they were at depth, that was one heck of a rocket ride to the surface. You will want to consider that as a last resort at depth, but never eliminate options if you expect to come back to tell the tale.

Still, Cap't Jack has a valid point. You MAY be able to fix bent. You WON'T be able to fix dead.

This is pointed out in the O/W and rescues class but who here that dives with ditchable weights practise this skill regularly?Can you get at the release without fumbling ect will the weights clear without hanging up on anything?Any skill that you must use in an emergency has to be repeated over and over again so it is automatic.Knowing what to do and beeing able to do it are two different things...there is a reason why emt,firefighters,soldiers practise over and over again and also do refreshers.
One of the issues in cold water diving is the amount of weight one needs to wear to off set the suit.Dumping a 20-30lbs weight belt to me seems like jumping out the 5th floor window to escape a fire you didn't burn and you hope you might survive the landing.Spliting up the weight so if you need to ditch weight you don't let it all go allows for a bit more control.
As ScubaDadMiami pointed out doing regular bouancy checks is a good thing...it takes a couple min. at the end of the dive.

Another good point, for those who use a old-fashioned weight belt that holds all of their weight, it is more drastic option than those who use things like weight harnesses where the weight is split into two or more separate areas. If your weighting is right, dumping 1/2 to a 1/3 of your lead should be enough to keep you at the surface without turning into quite the rocket ride.

As to practicing this, that is excellent.

Another related thought (I have been in this position before): if your buddy made a rapid ascent for some reason, would you risk the possible consequences of following him/her to the surface, or would you bide your time and do a more proper ascent? I would hope that your buddy wouldn't do this, but it has been known to happen. My answer changes with the precise situation and buddy, so I can't give a straight answer. Some people here probably could.

[6Gill]

Another related thought (I have been in this position before): if your buddy made a rapid ascent for some reason, would you risk the possible consequences of following him/her to the surface, or would you bide your time and do a more proper ascent? I would hope that your buddy wouldn't do this, but it has been known to happen. My answer changes with the precise situation and buddy, so I can't give a straight answer. Some people here probably could.

Well I would have to evaluate the factors like you and use my best judgement.Surface support plays a key part al;ong with the fact that I can't be much help if I'm messed up to

[peterbj7]

I had a guest recently who said he needed 36lb of weight, as that was what he had used in Cozumel. At the end of the week we had him down to 8lb. This was with Al tank, 3mm shorty and conventional jacket BC. With the 30lb he started with (he refused to go lower) he couldn't stay at the surface even with his BC full.

[PerroneFord]

That's OW training for ya...

People convince themselves they need all that weight, and they don't.

I remember the look on a dive buddy's face when she saw that I had held a 3ft stop, in a 5mm farmer top, AL80, and 200psi in the tank. There's no magic. Breath control is the key.

[Twinklez]

Another related thought (I have been in this position before): if your buddy made a rapid ascent for some reason, would you risk the possible consequences of following him/her to the surface, or would you bide your time and do a more proper ascent? I would hope that your buddy wouldn't do this, but it has been known to happen. My answer changes with the precise situation and buddy, so I can't give a straight answer. Some people here probably could.

Absolutely not! Regardless of who's up top, I'm no good to anyone if I get bent or end up dead trying to stay with my buddy on a rapid ascent.

I have to say though that my first reaction would be to follow...kind of like a knee jerk; but know from experience that I would stop myself from following hoping that my buddy can hang on until can safely get to him or her to help. And, I have to say that I would make every effort to safely stop my buddy from making a rapid ascent unless it was the only option left available to him or her. But it would be of no use to anyone if I perished in the process.

[Twinklez]

That's OW training for ya...

People convince themselves they need all that weight, and they don't.

I remember the look on a dive buddy's face when she saw that I had held a 3ft stop, in a 5mm farmer top, AL80, and 200psi in the tank. There's no magic. Breath control is the key.

I don't believe in pushing a new diver to reduce their weights if it causes their diving experience to become a struggle. I would rather they be able to safely and comfortably hold a stop, than laboring getting frustrated and sucking down all their air in the process; even if they are in my opinion over-weighted. Been there, done that.

Most of the people who were in my OW class still dive with more weight than I do and are still uncomfortable adjusting their weights on their own; but most of them half less than a third of the dives logged than I have.

The weight will begin to come off naturally as they dive more, master their breathing and skills, and learn to relax in an environment that was not meant for man.

[Geek]

I don't wear any weight.

Me too. In fresh water, with a 3mm full, I'm ok with just my backplate. I usually haul extra weight for students, and to make sure I can hang on in case they try to bolt.

Diving without ditchable weight worries me a little bit. However, if I carried any, I'd still be where I am when I dropped it.

What does the audience think about shifting to a composite backplate, and dusting off my weight belt?

Since you ask, in my opinion you are okay if you carry a backup bouyancy device. Without that, you could have a problem. Personally, I would rather carry the backup bouyancy than a weight belt.

[dad+2(.5)]

30lbs of weight? what are these people---beach balls? Its hard for me to think someone needs that much weight. for anything.

[PerroneFord]

Well,

A drysuit with thick undergarments and light tanks could require that much lead. But I'd sure try to find a way to carry it besides on a belt.