63 replies to this topic

[Mermaid Lady]

Sheesh! do I have a hair up my *ss today or what? :-)

No you don't. I'm right with you on everything in your post.

[tgnjim]

Great feedback! Like many of you have expressed, I too think about my carbon footprint on a daily basis. I am also purchasing a lot on an island in Fiji through monthly payments, & am involved in a discussion board with other lot owners on our impact on the local village culture. When they filmed Survivor there, I felt that it was a total cultural disaster. There is no one answer! And there is no one solution! I understand the attitude of feeling like I will do what I can, but I feel a bit powerless in the larger situatsion. The truth is that we "Little people" will alway have a minimum effect until things reach crises proportion.

Do you remember the TV ads in the 70's with the Native America shedding a tear over what we have done to the environment? This is about more than Global warming, the current focus. This is about the government recomendation to not eat more than one can of tuna per week due to the mercury content. This is about inland bodies of water where warnings are posted not to eat the fish. Bottled water from Fiji. Look, I've seen the plant there. Drink tap water. Reefs dieing due to sewage discharge creating Algae blooms. OK, the list goes on & on. But as divers, we see conditions & effects that are not always evident to other americans. We have the opportunity to be ambassadors.

On a final note, it seems to have been lost in this thread that my objection was to using the higher content sulfer diesel. I am all for saving a buck, but never at the expense of our planet & our species. If we demand the lowest polluting energy possible, then we are doing our part. My feeling is that my single voice or even a few joining me will not have an impact. But at least by voicing an opinion on the matter it will register for future decissions. And who knows, if many of us voice an opinion, maybe, just maybe , it will make a small difference.

Life is about little changes that create a great destination.

Jim

[tgnjim]

Being in retail, I fully understand the need to pass cost on to the consumer. What I do not like is the "surcharge" bit. It's almost like someone is saying " I know I am taking advantage of you by charging you more so I will blame it on gas prices" Sorry but in my opinion if your going to charge more then just charge more. Raise the prices on the trip and be done with it. I went on a liveaboard trip earlier this year and they pulled that on me. Lets see, you paid in full for the trip but I want more money so we will have a "surcharge" Humph!!! Set a price and stick to it. On future trips raise the price but this business of increasing prices after the fact and using the "surcharge" tactic is a load. Again, just my opinion....

If I tried to pull something like that in my business, I would be going out of business in a hurry. Divers put up with this because they are limited to the dive ops that will take them where they want to go. I guarentee you that none of the dive ops on Bonaire are advertising one price for boat dives and then charging you a "surcharge" before they let you on the boat.

As for a carbon footprint... although I recycle, drive a fuel efficient car, have an energy efficient house, most of which I do because it is cost effective, when I look at all of these politicians running around in their limos and these presidential candidates flitting around the country in jumbo jets that are only being used to transport themselves and their staffs. When I see these enormus cruise ships cruising around the ocean carrying thousands of passengers and dumping their sewage into the ocean that I dive in I can't say as I feel particulary guilty about the carbon foot print that I leave when I go diving...


Sheesh! do I have a hair up my *ss today or what? :-)

Parrotman,
I missed your post earlier, & yeah, I see your point & agree with most of it. But it kind of comes down to what my Mom woud say," two wrongs don't make a right". We have to distance ourselves from the status quo, & come up with viable solutions if we are to make a difference. And fortunately the general public seems to becoming aware of this. I've learned best by example. Let's us as divers create the example.

Jim

[techintime]

OK, here you go on my two cents. But first, I own an SUV and a pickup truck and I love a good steak. Does anyone wonder why they never heard of the "carbon footprint", "carbon neutral" or "carbon credits" until a few years ago? That's because the terms are the latest fad. The earth has been going in and out of ice ages for many millions of years. The current "global warming" that so many want to attribute to mankind is in reality the "natural" warming spell of the last ice age that we are still coming out of. It has nothing to do with mankind. The reason there is ice on the earth's poles is because we are not-yet fully out of the last ice age.
I have lived all over the world and traveled to much of the rest of it and believe me, it is not the commercial aircraft carrying a diver or the diveboat burning cheap diesel fuel that is causing ecological damage. It is the poverty stricken countries that have the worst air, worst water, unhealthy people, bleeched and depleted reefs and contaminated soil. Compare the filth of Bombay or Cairo to the relative cleanliness of LA or any other city in a properous nation and there is no doubt that poverty produce more polution per capita.
Eco-101, if you want fuel prices to come down, we must increase supply. You increase supply by drilling for more oil and building more refineries. No other way around it...pure and simple economics.

PS Nuclear power plants have a zero Carbon footprint.

I'll duck now

Mark

[weescot]

OK, here you go on my two cents. But first, I own an SUV and a pickup truck and I love a good steak. Does anyone wonder why they never heard of the "carbon footprint", "carbon neutral" or "carbon credits" until a few years ago? That's because the terms are the latest fad. The earth has been going in and out of ice ages for many millions of years. The current "global warming" that so many want to attribute to mankind is in reality the "natural" warming spell of the last ice age that we are still coming out of. It has nothing to do with mankind. The reason there is ice on the earth's poles is because we are not-yet fully out of the last ice age.
I have lived all over the world and traveled to much of the rest of it and believe me, it is not the commercial aircraft carrying a diver or the diveboat burning cheap diesel fuel that is causing ecological damage. It is the poverty stricken countries that have the worst air, worst water, unhealthy people, bleeched and depleted reefs and contaminated soil. Compare the filth of Bombay or Cairo to the relative cleanliness of LA or any other city in a properous nation and there is no doubt that poverty produce more polution per capita.
Eco-101, if you want fuel prices to come down, we must increase supply. You increase supply by drilling for more oil and building more refineries. No other way around it...pure and simple economics.

PS Nuclear power plants have a zero Carbon footprint.

I'll duck now

Mark

Re Global warming - depends on what research you read and beleive - everything written and published is subjective in my view. And the subject is probably on the limits of forum rules...

I have lived and travelled all over the world too and underdevelped countries put survival of themselves and their families above their immediate environment. Furthermore, most polutants were introduced into everyday use across the world by the developed "West" so we have to shoulder some of this responsibility. Countres like India and Egypt only became poluted when we (the Brits originally) came along with our plastic, cars and manufacturing plants.

Sun and wind have zero carbon footprint too. And just so you know, the Indians are giving alternative energy a go...

http://indicview.blo...olar-power.html

although a serious topic, at the end of the day we all care about the environment, we dive to enjoy the marine environment in particular and make our choices with this in mind. I had to cancel my Bahamas trip last New Year for family reasons, but it would have been five flights over two days for 5.5 days diving. this really would have been irresponsible. My wee tip is to live and work near to many top tropical diving destinations and car pool to weekend dives.... and share showers

[georoc01]

OK, here you go on my two cents. But first, I own an SUV and a pickup truck and I love a good steak. Does anyone wonder why they never heard of the "carbon footprint", "carbon neutral" or "carbon credits" until a few years ago? That's because the terms are the latest fad. The earth has been going in and out of ice ages for many millions of years. The current "global warming" that so many want to attribute to mankind is in reality the "natural" warming spell of the last ice age that we are still coming out of. It has nothing to do with mankind. The reason there is ice on the earth's poles is because we are not-yet fully out of the last ice age.
I have lived all over the world and traveled to much of the rest of it and believe me, it is not the commercial aircraft carrying a diver or the diveboat burning cheap diesel fuel that is causing ecological damage. It is the poverty stricken countries that have the worst air, worst water, unhealthy people, bleeched and depleted reefs and contaminated soil. Compare the filth of Bombay or Cairo to the relative cleanliness of LA or any other city in a properous nation and there is no doubt that poverty produce more polution per capita.
Eco-101, if you want fuel prices to come down, we must increase supply. You increase supply by drilling for more oil and building more refineries. No other way around it...pure and simple economics.

PS Nuclear power plants have a zero Carbon footprint.

I'll duck now

Mark

BTW, we are drilling about as fast and as hard as we can right now. At these prices, we can't go much faster than we are.

Here is what I find scary though. Through legislation, all of our domestic oil & refining eggs are in one basket. The Gulf of Mexico. If we have a Katrina/Rita double whammy like we did a few years ago if you think fuel prices are high now, expect them to double from where we are.

As far as the surcharge goes, I agree that they should just raise the rates and be done with it. Its not like prices are going down anytime soon. There is a hotel in Nevada that I go to a couple of times a year that instituted an energy surcharge back when California was struggling with its power grid about 10 years ago. The surcharge has never gone away.

[cmt489]

Does anyone wonder why they never heard of the "carbon footprint", "carbon neutral" or "carbon credits" until a few years ago?

I agree. Carbon credits are a fad (aka a money grab). The term, carbon footprint, however, has been in my vocabulary for a very long time.

The current "global warming" that so many want to attribute to mankind is in reality the "natural" warming spell of the last ice age that we are still coming out of. It has nothing to do with mankind. The reason there is ice on the earth's poles is because we are not-yet fully out of the last ice age.

I always have to wonder why people who choose to believe this will cling to the scant articles and editorials touting this line of thinking but ignore all of the other scientific evidence to the contrary. Why is it that this line of thinking is "correct" and the other, much more researched and data driven, is not? It kind of reminds me of the tobacco research of old.

I have lived all over the world and traveled to much of the rest of it and believe me, it is not the commercial aircraft carrying a diver or the diveboat burning cheap diesel fuel that is causing ecological damage. It is the poverty stricken countries that have the worst air, worst water, unhealthy people, bleeched and depleted reefs and contaminated soil. Compare the filth of Bombay or Cairo to the relative cleanliness of LA or any other city in a properous nation and there is no doubt that poverty produce more polution per capita.

This is because we are really good at sweeping our environmental damage under the rug so that things look good. Just imagine if North Americans had no controls and no services available to help them clean up. Also, keep in mind that we have now shipped all of our production jobs over there so that these countries can pollute themselves for our benefit.

Eco-101, if you want fuel prices to come down, we must increase supply. You increase supply by drilling for more oil and building more refineries. No other way around it...pure and simple economics.

Or decrease demand. Also pure and simple economics.

PS Nuclear power plants have a zero Carbon footprint.

No argument there. So long as properly managed and maintained, nuclear is an excellent alternative to coal powered plants.

[ScubaDadMiami]

A great way to make a difference is to become vegan. Raising livestock contributes a huge amount of methane to the atmosphere.

[cmt489]

A great way to make a difference is to become vegan. Raising livestock contributes a huge amount of methane to the atmosphere.

I know but, alas, I'm just not that good. Giving up cheese might just be worse than giving up diving for me!

[Mermaid Lady]

Wonder if this may help things:

http://www.chron.com....</span></span>

Edited by Mermaid Lady, 03 June 2008 - 01:00 PM.

[WreckWench]

A question of fuel surchages...

First all our trips especially liveaboards who are floating hotels have stipulated that a fuel surcharge may apply. We post this in the thread with all the details and that surcharge it its going to be applied and is usually assessed 30 days out for group bookings. On individual bookings they do so at the time of booking hoping that it does not rise. These individual assessments are quite steep. This applies to Aggressor, Peter Hughes, Explorer Ventures, Spree, Nekton and others. In fact I do not know of a single liveaboard that does not charge a fuel surcharge.

Why a surcharge vs a price increase? First off many consumers purchase their spot up to a year in advance with prices based upon economic factors that will be up to a year old when they take that trip. With fuel rising prices would have to be adjusted daily (as the airlines do) in order to try and project what fuel will be or do that far in the future. The airlines have massive computers to do such calculations and they are still broke. Dive operators can merely wait and see what fuel is ACTUALLY doing vs speculate and then charge a fuel surcharge if necessary.

And I don't think any of us have not felt the price of gas skyrocket...and diesel is even worse.

So again what are the choices? Raise prices daily which means we could not run group trips the way we currently do as the price would be changing daily and only be locked in when you paid in full. How many people pay in full for a dive trip? I know most of our members pay over time.

Jack up the price of the trip very high to cover what they hope will be enough to cover bookings 12 months in advance.

Or keep the price at what it should be based upon a certain level of fuel and fuel increase and then add a surcharge IF the price of fuel exceeds that.

As for the Spree...they have not raised their prices since starting this new Dry Tortugas venue a couple of years ago. When asked what I thought they should do this year I said what all the other liveaboards do...set your price and then see what fuel ACTUALLY does. We'll then go from there. Again...I don't doubt that anyone is arguing that fuel has gone up. A simple google search shows the prices of gas anywhere you want to check.

And while I do not like to pay these fuel surchanges...I don't like to pay more every other freaking day when I fill up my truck either. But in both cases you pay to play.

Edited by WreckWench, 03 June 2008 - 01:33 PM.

[ScubaSis]

I for one have been hit hard by the gas prices. I drive 104 miles round trip to work. I work a 4 on 4 off schedule most weeks, so I do have time off to stay at home and save gas. I find myself doing this more and more. Trying not to go to town until absolutely necessary, making one trip instead of one a day. It would cost a fortune for me to move closer to work. I have low taxes and a low mortgage, so I am better off staying and driving from where I am. I'm afraid I am like everyone else and do not have a solution to the problem. We are at the mercy of the powers that be!!!

I will say this, we are Blessed to be able to worry about a surcharge to go diving, rather than worry about where we will get the gas money to go to work!! I pray for the families that can not afford to fill their tanks!! Something has to happen, I just wish I knew the answer.

[georoc01]

A question of fuel surchages...

First all our trips especially liveaboards who are floating hotels have stipulated that a fuel surcharge may apply. We post this in the thread with all the details and that surcharge it its going to be applied and is usually assessed 30 days out for group bookings. On individual bookings they do so at the time of booking hoping that it does not rise. These individual assessments are quite steep. This applies to Aggressor, Peter Hughes, Explorer Ventures, Spree, Nekton and others. In fact I do not know of a single liveaboard that does not charge a fuel surcharge.

Why a surcharge vs a price increase? First off many consumers purchase their spot up to a year in advance with prices based upon economic factors that will be up to a year old when they take that trip. With fuel rising prices would have to be adjusted daily (as the airlines do) in order to try and project what fuel will be or do that far in the future. The airlines have massive computers to do such calculations and they are still broke. Dive operators can merely wait and see what fuel is ACTUALLY doing vs speculate and then charge a fuel surcharge if necessary.

And while I do not like to pay these fuel surchanges...I don't like to pay more every other freaking day when I fill up my truck either. But in both cases you pay to play.

While there was a footnote in the first page for our trip on the Nimrod Explorer(Explorer Ventures), the $140 additional charge pp wasn't made clear until we were under way. There wasn't even an estimate in the additional costs that were posted prior to the trip. I think it was a shock and came accross as a hidden charge to virtually all of us who had paid on this trip. It was certainly NOT 30 days in advance. I know I was forced to put this on a credit card, and then had to pay a foreign currency surcharge on my fuel surcharge.

As far as the airlines go, the cost of fuel has virtually nothing to do with the price of the airfare. The airlines buy their fuel in bulk and smart airlines like Southwest hedge their gas months if not years in advance and lock in their prices before a ticket ever goes on sale. Its not like they collect an additional $20 per person before you get on the plane in some kind of surcharge to cover the cost of fuel to get there. The airlines set their price based upon what the market will bear to fill the plane. That is what the math is doing on a constant basis. Comparing other prices and the current load and adjusts the prices accordingly until the plane is full. This is why when we were evacuating Cozumel last summer when there were 30 seats available, I bought mine for $200. Three hours later when only a handful were left, it had gone up to $1400.

And I don't see why it would be any difference than it is for purchasing the airfare for a trip. The cost of your flights, is seperate and isn't locked in until you actually pay for it. And it would be an incentive to pay the trip in full in advance, just like locking your airfare in could be.

IF there was true volatility in the prices, then I would agree with you, but the fact is, they just keep increasing.

[WreckWench]

George the fuel surcharge for Australia was on the liveaboard's website...I however failed to post it properly in the trip details.

However all liveaboards have had fuel surcharges for well over the past year. As for raising rates it would be nice to have a fixed price but what? Dive operators no more have a crystal ball to see 6 or 12 months out anymore so than you and I do.

And while you can search airfares online and make an instant decision and purchase you can't search dive trips online and make the same instant decision. And lord knows I don't want them to increase the rate just cuz a bunch of people are booking the trip like the airlines do. No do I want to double check the price everytime someone wants to sign up for a trip and then hope they can transact fast enough to keep that same price.

As for the inevitability of fuel surcharges I think its safe to say we are all resigned to them NOW. However were you as resigned to them 6 months ago? Or 12 months ago? On the other hand...would you argue that fuel has not gone up over the past 6 or 12 months?

I guess I just don't see any feasible way for liveaboards to determine the price of a trip with a variable as extreme as fuel as far out as divers want to book packages.

You are correct that prices keep going up...but the true volitility is HOW MUCH not whether they go up or down.

However if anyone has a formula or suggestions then I'm sure all the liveaboards would love to know what it is or how they can improve service in this arena while not pricing themselves out of business or going out of business.

[finGrabber]

ExplorerVentures has had fuel surcharges posted on their website for years. I paid one in Saba (2005) and Turks and Caicos (2006)

And does anyone really think it suddenly got $15 or $25 per bag more expensive just to put their bag on a plane? No, it's in reality a fuel surcharge that they can collect from everyone now. Instead of having to wait 5 months for you to fly and get no additional income from you, they can charge you $40 when you do fly, months from now. So now they know they have additional revenue coming in.

And Southwest may have won in the fuel arena, but they have made some really BAD decisions in others. Southwest is ok, but they don't fly internationally. And it's still a cattle car.

This is why when we were evacuating Cozumel last summer when there were 30 seats available, I bought mine for $200. Three hours later when only a handful were left, it had gone up to $1400.

the above in an example of the complex pricing system airlines use. They usually allocate a 'number' of seats for a certain price point on XYZ flight. Once that number is hit, the price goes up. Plus, after a certain number of 'advance purchase days go by' the price goes up. And the fun thing is, those numbers change every day for revenue maximization!