44 replies to this topic

[WreckWench]

BREAKING OFF TO DISCUSS WHY DIVERS ARE SO SNARKY TO OTHERS...

This post is actually about two things and I couldn't figure out how to separate them so here goes:

When I was a new diver with horrible buoyancy, WW gave me a photo stick so I wouldn't destroy the reef. Luckily I improved, and one trip later, I didn't need the stick to stay off the reef. Didn't use it again. Fast forward 250 dives later and I'm using a camera now. Said photo stick came in handy. Tonight I was on ScubaBoard looking (lurking ) for information. I rarely-to-never post on SB because of the way people treat posters. It is ridiculous. I ran across a 3 year old thread about photo sticks that made me think twice:SB link


If I had better buoyancy, then I should not need that photo stick at all... and it goes on and on for 12 pages/120 posts... I had no idea some divers felt so strongly/negatively about a simple photo stick. Granted, there are behaviors like excessive tank banging, doing harm to the wildlife, or stirring up silt that I know not to do.

The OP was a newer diver at the time, and now she is into DIR. She posted years later that the experience of being flamed on that thread "nearly sent her away from (that) rude opinionated website".

This brings me to my second topic - maybe I should start another thread: Why do SDers think divers are so awful to other divers, particularly those with less experience than they have?? There are some genuinely nice people on ScubaBoard, but they are in minority. I'm not willing to subject myself to the reprimands and sarcasm. I also found a thread on SB called Why are we so mean?. So I want to know what you guys think. Whenever I go on a dive trip without SingleDivers, I'm hypersensitive to the fact that so many experienced divers are so critical, and I'm always wondering, what am I doing that someone will find fault with? On my last trip, I heard way too many snarky comments by my fellow divers about my fellow divers .

I have left the first part of Ellen's topic regarding photosticks as background to her 2nd question which is related. The "photostick" discussion is HERE and below you'll find the "Snarky" diver discussion.

[ScubaHawk]

I have found that a vast majority of divers are incredibly nice and helpful to one another regardless of skill level. I think the problem is that many internet forum posters are mean and "snarky". Many papers have been written on this subject and it is still a bit of a puzzle. But I think in this case it is because most divers aren't on the forum so you are only talking to the ones who hang out on forums and post. In an environment with no pressure to behave (unlike SD) the trolls, know it alls and better than thous have free run.
Funny, I have offered to meet 5 or 6 forum posters, chatters or in game texters in real life to discuss their comments. So far, 0 takers.

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

Funny, I have offered to meet 5 or 6 forum posters, chatters or in game texters in real life to discuss their comments. So far, 0 takers.

And your Avatar doesn't even show your big, bad self in all your glory! Not many people tower over me....

I do not frequent that particular forum for the reasons Ellen described: hateful comments, flaming, trolling, complete disrespect for other opinions, and the inability to 'agree to disagree'.

I'm sure that someone could dissect the psychology of why certain people are driven to belittle others. Most of us are capable of doing so, and probably have at some time in our lives. The trolls that do so ALL THE TIME have a problem, IMHO, but you will not be able to change their behavior with logical discussion. I just call them 'mean people' and stay away from them.

Regarding divers who insist their way of diving is the ONLY RIGHT WAY to dive safely, they are entitled to their opinion and can dive however they are comfortable. I don't know why they insist on pointing out to other divers why they're right and we're doing it 'wrong' in their eyes. A superiority complex, maybe, and another subject for the psychologists. If a newer diver asks me questions, I am happy to explain what I'm doing & why I do it that way, and leave it at that. They can incorporate it into their dive style or not, as it suits them. The only thing I insist upon is when underwater, if they are not buoyant I try to help them get that way, to keep them off the reef.

Sometimes on a boat, there is good-natured ribbing and teasing between divers, which can be a lot of fun if done respectfully. Probably a fine line between teasing and being snarky....the difference is in the delivery and the context. If someone is being snarky or mean to other divers on the boat, he/she would become anathema to me. If it was bad, I would probably become confrontational with the bully, to try to get them to shut the hell up. We're on vacation....who wants to hear their vitriol??

SD will continue its tradition of being helpful mentors to those with less experience, both on the forums and on the dive boats. We're not the most active dive forum, but it's the one I'm drawn to because of the polite, friendly, and helpful interaction.

[ThatJoeGuy]

One theory

[MNJoe]

Snarky Divers, actually divers are not snarky, posters are snarky. I don't think I have ever seen anyone on a dive boat get snarky with another diver. On the internet, people never have to see the person they are talking to or about, so it is easy for them to get over zealous. I will say, the snarkinous of some of those SCUBABoard posts did cause me to make sure I worked on my bouyancy and skills, my parents were way too critical when I was young, so it takes me a while to see when people are over stepping. Now when I see someone being snarky I just figure they are a jerk and do not really care what they have to say. Being helpful to a newer diver is a positive thing for everyone, the reef included.

I went to the SCUBABoard Invasion last year, not a snarky diver in the bunch, 90 plus people.

I for one am a lousy post/email writer. I write something, edit it, reread it, change it some more, by the time I actually post something, an hour has passed, I may have even just delete my post deciding I cannot find the words to say what I am thinking, or have it so streamilined that it can be so straight to the point that it can be misinterpreted as me being snarky. It is also very easy to misinterpret a written message.

Hawk maybe if you would finally move out of Iowa, people would be more apt to visit you and discuss some of the topics

[WreckWench]

Snarky divers in my opinion are snarky people in general. Snarky people are insecure people or people who are full of themselves but usually insecure and therefore assume the best defense is a good offense.

And people are a product of their environment. If someone is snarky to you when you are new and you finally learn the ropes so to speak then you'll have a tendency to do the same in a similar situation. Its sort of like freshman hazing or orientation... stupid but fairly common.

SingleDivers.com is in part a product of my personal experiences which I guess is logical but perhaps not always. I was the product of a LOT of snarky and downright mean people growing up and even after reaching adulthood. There are lots of reasons for it...some probably best for shrinks to delve into but some due to my father's military career which meant we had to move every 12-18 mos whether we liked it or not. When I moved to SC it was my 33rd lifetime move...folks that is a LOT of moving and changing environments and always being the new kid on the block and LOTS OF CHANCES FOR PEOPLE TO BE SNARKY TO ME BECAUSE I WAS NEW...DIFFERENT...DID NOT BELONG...__________ FILL IN THE BLANK.

And boy were they snarky and mean when I learned to dive. Of course I was a disaster in the water so I should not have been hurt by the truth...but alas we are. At this point its appropriate to insert the old adage "That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and it did.

Another old adage that is appropriate is "if you don't have anything nice to say...don't say it all"...this is how we SHOULD live our lives but sadly its all to easy to forget that simple rule and I know I've done it myself...and usually regret it right after having done so.

Part of the issue is we don't know what is going on in someone's life...we don't know if family members are dying or they are losing their jobs or just broke up with someone. And we don't know who people are in real life...we just make a snap judgement on a boat and think we've summed it all up. And if the person next to us agrees then its final and ifa number of people laugh or agree then its engraved in stone and the book is shut.

Even though we ALL may have been wrong...

But by then its too late. We've made the snide remark...we've made ourselves look better at someone else's expense and we are now part of a daily ritual that plays out over and over again...not just on dive boats but in life in general.

Alas I digress...

Hopefully because of these experiences...and my being the victim of them SO MANY TIMES... SingleDivers.com is different because of it. And hopefully I always remember the pain of being on the receiving end of snarky remarks and don't try to be with the 'cool kids' and fall into the abuse ...EVEN IF EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT! And hopefully I have the courage to stop it even if it means I lose a customer because I've tried to stop it.

And yes I've slipped in the past even on our trips but my goal is to pick myself up, brush myself off and start over again. And hopefully this time I get it right!

So Ellen this is the best answer I can give you and it boils down to ultimately there is no real answer. People want to be liked by their peers so some will put others down to be liked. Some people use snarky remarks to send a message...don't bother me I'm too busy or too involved to be intruded upon after all it is my vacation and I can spend it how I like. (And you can't really fault them in principal...perhaps just in delivery!) And some people are snarly because they just don't know any better. That adds up to a LOT of snarky people.

I just hope and pray that your last trip was not with us... and if it was...then I hope our divers remember what its like to have someone be snarky to them... I know I do...it SUCKS and sadly its a part of life. I accept it but I certainly don't like it.

Great topic Ellen...I hope you find the answers you are looking for! kamala

[WreckWench]

Keith we hope you feel secure enough to post here and not stress for an hour over a post..but I can relate. I have 5 posts open that I am working on...mostly because I have to go over them to make sure I'm not misunderstood. The written word is hard for most..even someone who seems as *wordy* as me!

[peterbj7]

In my experience most divers aren't "snarky" (never heard that word before) bt I did have one student who was. I wrote about him a few years back. He certainly had something to prove and no-one was going to stop him. The only student I have "dumped" and refused to continue with, which of course earned me even more "snarkiness".

[drifter]

I have several hobbies that require fairly specialized skill sets and where everyone develops their own style that they feel is 'best' (storm chasing and duck hunting are the other two) and I find that in all three it is exactly the same. The groups of people couldn't be different personality wise...but you see the same behavior on boards for all three groups.

As ThatJoeGuy posted in the eloquent strip...

You take people who are perhaps a bit immature, give them anonymity and an audience of other immature people and they suddenly decide to flex their typing muscles.

Once you remove one of those items (anonymity and/or the audience), people settle down and treat each other with respect. There are helpful suggestions, but they don't become flame wars that run people completely out of the hobby. I don't post on the other board either for that reason.

Hawk, FYI, in pretty much all cases, the people, in person, are completely different when you do meet them in person!

Edited by drifter, 13 April 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[Sharklover]

What an interesting topic!

Some people are the same on the internet as they are in person. I am sure that no one would see me any differently here than in person. But I do think the internet is a medium which in some people brings out different behaviors than would be considered acceptable in face to face interaction. I have my theories about why this is true, but I am no psychologist, just a reasonably astute observer of human behavior. Who are these people for whom the internet becomes a pathologic playground?

1. People who are at their roots very insecure and need to belittle others as a means to make themselves feel better
2. People with true psychopathology which might be kept somewhat in check by social conventions in live interactions, but when left unchecked due to the anonymity of the internet, it is like a playground/amusement park for their disorder
3. People who are just damn mean and spiteful by nature and can be that way without repercussions when behind a keyboard
4. People who lack courage to be who they really are in real life, but who find that "courage" behind a keyboard
5. People who have an overinflated ego and who need to prove it to everyone in their path. I call them PhD divers. They have stacks of C Cards. They know a lot and they want to make sure that you know that they know a lot. Many of them don't dive very much though and it is always interesting to see them in the water.

I recently turned down an offer for a great dive trip on a nice boat with a good captain because of the drama seeking nastiness I have seen one of the divers exhibit on SB. Everything we do, whether here on the internet, or in person, is part of who we really are.

I am happy that SD insists on a snark free environment. It is nice here.

[TCdamsel]

I so appreciate each of your insightful and thoughtful responses! Really puts things in perspective. Kamala's explanation particularly resonated with me:

And we don't know who people are in real life...we just make a snap judgement on a boat and think we've summed it all up. And if the person next to us agrees then its final and ifa number of people laugh or agree then its engraved in stone and the book is shut.

Even though we ALL may have been wrong...

But by then its too late. We've made the snide remark...we've made ourselves look better at someone else's expense and we are now part of a daily ritual that plays out over and over again...not just on dive boats but in life in general. ... People want to be liked by their peers so some will put others down to be liked. Some people use snarky remarks to send a message...don't bother me I'm too busy or too involved to be intruded upon after all it is my vacation and I can spend it how I like. (And you can't really fault them in principal...perhaps just in delivery!) And some people are snarly because they just don't know any better. That adds up to a LOT of snarky people.

Then again, what Joe said


It's nice to know I'm not the only one who doesn't like to post on the OTHER board I've never been good at expressing myself on the internet, either. It is fraught with the possibility of misunderstanding. Like others, by the time I've written, edited, and reread my post, most of the time I decide not to post at all, for fear of misinterpretation. Single Divers remains a place that is safe to dive/go on trips, and a safe internet forum. For that I'm grateful. Thanks guys!!!

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

I am happy that SD insists on a snark free environment. It is nice here.

Hmmmm, I'm sure with a little tweaking, we can use this to our advantage in our future advertising!

1. SD.com: a snark-free zone!
2. SD.com: we play nice!
3. SD.com: we hate snarks, but love sharks!
4. SD.com: ____________________ (fill in the blank)

[ScubaSis]

I love it Tammy!!

[Gini]

Love all of these answers (especially Joe's), and I think you're all right. Snarkiness abounds all over the internet.

I'm glad to have found this warm, friendly, snark-free zone!

(And I love the word "snark"...it sounds like a noise a Snuffleupagus would make!)

[Mermaid Lady]

Love all of these answers (especially Joe's), and I think you're all right. Snarkiness abounds all over the internet.

I'm glad to have found this warm, friendly, snark-free zone!

(And I love the word "snark"...it sounds like a noise a Snuffleupagus would make!)

I agree. Nothing more I can add to this thread. Except that I like it.