89 replies to this topic

[VADiver]

Some of the Shops here in VA do. They want everything wrapped with these big NITROX stickers. I had to get my tanks cleaned and inspected and was told they whad to put a sticker on it to comply with a new law. I just got back from Iraq so tings may have changed, but I seriously doubt it. Has anyone heard something like this recently.

At least I'll have my tanks O2 cleaned and have something to do during my surface interval peeling the stickers off!

Oh, and they said dive shops won't fill NITROX (even pre blended 40% and lower) without the tanks being O2 clean. Said DOT imposed this new regulation after a couple O2 filling accidents in Fla.

It sucks to be limited to only a couple dive shops!

Edited by VADiver, 26 May 2005 - 09:48 AM.

[Diverbrian]

They filled the tanks, but the shop manager proceeded to give me a lecture on why my mix was useless (he was going to top them off from 1000 psi until I told him the mix) and why I needed Helium in my mix if I needed that lean of a nitrox mix to stay within PO2 limits (I had EAN28 in the tanks).

I took my fill and mentally promised to never darken his doors again.

The tanks in question are O2 cleaned and do have the Nitrox bands.

Oh, and someone fed you some bull. My LDS does premix for the reason that they don't need to mess with O2 cleaning of tanks with the exception of some the techies like myself.

Edited by Diverbrian, 26 May 2005 - 10:56 AM.

[steelemagnolia6]

Will have to check with my LDS and see if rules have changed. If they have I may not have heard it.

If one of you find out that it is so please send me a pm and let me know. The tanks that I have laying over in the corner are O2 cleaned. I did not know that it was a DOT requirement. I just thought it was one that my LDS required.

The do have NITROX Stickers on them!

[David Evans]

Oh, and they said dive shops won't fill NITROX (even pre blended 40% and lower) without the tanks being O2 clean. Said DOT imposed this new regulation after a couple O2 filling accidents in Fla.

Next time you go in, as him what the DOT says about people breathing welding grade gasses... because that's what he's using (and that's what you're breathing).

Medical grade O2 is incredibly expensive, and I think (but am not certain) that it requires a prescription and maybe even a special permit to handle, and it's a good bet that there's not a dive shop in north America that has the proper DOT paperwork and HAZMAT certifications to deal O2.

But speaking of DOT regulations, you may not know that it is *probably* illegal (as I understand it anyway) for you to haul scuba tanks around in your car without special HAZMAT certification and a special license....

-d

[notsonewbie]

Don't quote me on this, but I think placarding is only required when transporting compressed gases in a certain amount and for commercial use. Like I said, don't quote me on it.

[steelemagnolia6]

Speaking as somene who knows what she is talking about. My family business is the transportation business. So I can speak on this issue.


In regard to HAZMAT Regulations, it is not illegal to transport your scuba tanks in your car, nor do you need any sort of certification and or endorsement on your Drivers Lic. Nor do you need to have a placard to do so.


You must be hauling more than a 1000 pound of this material.

Dive shops use medical grade O2. You need to check your facts! And O2 is not a welding gas it's a cutting gas.

Welding is done with inert gases. Cutting is done with a mixture of oxygen and other gases to provide the flame.

Edited by steelemagnolia6, 26 May 2005 - 12:29 PM.

[David Evans]

Thank you for clarifying Kay.

[Dive_Girl]

Alright, I'll ring in from the dive shop side regarding tank cleaning and tank markings/stickers. These requirements aren't there for no good reason; some may be legal driven others safety driven. I'm not an expert in this but deal with filling tanks, so I'll drop down my layman's version (and I'll use the term Nitrox in place of Enriched Air and I'm not talking about 21% O2 "Nitrox" so let's leave out the one-up-ums of technicalities please :anna: ).

Dive shops that can give Nitrox fills typically have compressors that will fill in one of two methods: the "partial pressure" method where 100% O2 is put into the tank first or the "pre-blended" method (there's a real technical term for this, but this term is more friendly) where the gases are mixed to desired % before being put into the tank.

Depending on the fill method, tanks need to be cleaned to a certain level. If a dive shop has a "partial pressure" compressor, they can only give Nitrox fills to tanks that have been O2 cleaned (no rust, contaminants...etc). If they put 100% O2 into a tank that has not been O2 cleaned, a fire can occur in the tank burning the insides, creating soot and at worst case scenario the tank can explode.

If a dive shop has a "pre-blended" compressor, the tanks can either be O2 cleaned or NITROX cleaned, which is a step below the O2 cleaned level.

There are typically two stickers that go on the tanks. The first is the big yellow and green band that indicates the tank is a Nitrox tank. The second indicates what type of "clean" the tank is, O2 or Nitrox. The shop looks for that sticker to see if they can fill the tank based on the type of compressor they have.

Regardless of bureaucratic rules and requirements...etc., I personally don't want to have a tank explode on me while filling it. So, the stickers are important to ME or to the dive shop staff as our safety and lives can be at risk in filling an improperly cleaned or marked tank.

The big Nitrox band sticker clearly marks the tank as Nitrox to hopefully avoid divers who are not trained in Nitrox picking up the wrong tank. This may not be your worry as you have your own tanks and you are always the only one to use them, but tanks can look alike. My tanks look similar to our rental tanks, and I have them all sorts of marked up so a recreational diver doesn't inadvertently take my 40% mix to inappropriate depths and tox out. This can happen on dive boats too where you end up meeting up with someone who has tanks like yours. There are only so many tank manufacturers out there. So the sticker is maybe not for your comfort or safety, but it is for someone's.

I hope this sheds some light onto the tank cleaning and sticker issue.

Edited by Dive_Girl, 26 May 2005 - 12:40 PM.

[drdiver]

DOT allows unlimited common carrier transport of compressed gas cylinders. They must be properly placarded but that's an OSHA regulation. OSHA has extensive regulations for regulating commercial diving

Commercial Diving Regulation

I suppose that they could regulate sport diving if they wanted to---let's hope they don't get any ideas.

[notsonewbie]

Does a tank need to be O2 or Nitrox cleaned after each use?

[Dive_Girl]

Does a tank need to be O2 or Nitrox cleaned after each use?

Not typically*, only if the tank was filled from a compressor that fills with low grade air - then your tank would need to be recleaned. We have had to avoid some dive ops in the past that had older compressors to avoid contaiminating our tanks.

*note: there may be exceptions to this and you should really consult with your dive shop regarding the type of tank you have, how it was cleaned, what you are dedicating it for, and where you have it filled.

DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER
Agian, I am not an expert on this and am only providing layman's general info. You should never take general info as advice and should always consult with an appropriately trained local authority on such matters.

Edited by Dive_Girl, 26 May 2005 - 01:28 PM.

[steelemagnolia6]

Actually OSHA doesn't deal with Transportation of Hazardous materials. That's the DOT and the Federal Highway Safety Admin. Ask anyone in our business how much we love either of them.

There are only 2 things that need placarding in quantities less than 1000 pounds explosives and posion gases. This is regardless of the amount.

Scuba tanks by their size would fall under the ORMD quantity exemption.

I can dig out the DOT/FHSA Hazmat book and quote reg # if you get stopped and are questioned about it...

[David Evans]

Dive shops use medical grade O2. You need to check your facts!

FYI, Kay, from the FDA website: ( http://www.fda.gov/c...pq/freshair.htm ) - and medical grade O2 is considered a "medical gas" by the FDA....

Medical gases are prescription drugs that must be dispensed by prescription only. Each firm has a responsibility to determine if its consignee, not the patient is authorized to purchase the drug gas, and if required, is registered with FDA, and properly licensed with the state, where required prior to selling them medical gas.

... 

Who is required to register? Any individual or firm filling cylinders or liquid containers (via liquid to liquid, liquid to gas, gas to gas) is considered a manufacturer and as such is required to register and list with the agency and to comply with the CGMPs. In addition, a firm should check with its state to determine if there are any state requirements, such as licensing.

I don't know about where you buy your gas, but every dive shop I've ever been in fills using welding (cutting, whatever... not medical grade) oxygen. I'm not an authority, but I've also been in not just a few dive shops.

And if they ARE filling with medical grade oxygen, the link above would seem to indicate that unless they are duly licensed to dispense pharmaceuticals, they are violating FDA regulations.


-david

[chinacat46]

Well as long as we are going along these lines what exactly is OCA? I've seen dive shops advertise OCA and Nitrox and was just wondering.

[chinacat46]

Just googled this:

"Oxygen-Compatible" (OCA) is CGA Grade "E" with reduced maximum acceptable carbon monoxide, hydrocarbon and particulate levels. The International Association of Nitrox Divers (IANTD) and American Nitrox Divers International (ANDI) created this designation for gases used in technical diving and gas blending. The U.S. Navy and the American Academy of Underwater Sciences (AAUS) have also issued Grade "OCA" specifications. All the Grade "OCA" specifications are similar but not identical. For the purposes of this discussion we'll use the IANTD/ANDI "OCA" specification.